Rittenhouse Trial Taught Us This

[Preety_India]

@Average Investor

42 minutes ago, Average Investor said:

but who is seriously going to defend those guys trying to kill a 17 year old that was running away from them? 

He could have used a pepper spray. He chose to shoot at them. 

There was absolutely no need for this teen to carry a rifle openly into a crowd and then play self defense. It's a bad precedent. He doesn't need to run away to prove a point. Just the fact that he is walking around with a huge rifle is enough to provoke people to jump on him, they can't be blamed, it's high stress situation with very little time to react, they were in fight or flight mode, they made a split second decision to attack Kyle probably in a bid to avert a tragedy. How can someone simply carry dangerous weapons in a high tension situation and nothing bad will come out of it? I believe kyle went there with the intention to instigate a situation, at the very least to make a statement with his gun.. 

 

But all of this is speculation. 

 

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, DocWatts said:

The reality is that the more conscious and developed version of Personal Responsibility is Social Responsibility, which is what the Left advocates for. It means being actively concerned about and advocating for the well being of other people.

It's a more expansive and mature form of responsibility, which is why it's invisible to somebody who has a far more narrow and restrictive circle of concern.

Can you show me an example of a leftist program that has inclusive personal responsibility with the social responsibility?

 

3 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Maybe that person you're shitting on isn't poor because they don't work hard, but because they've been dealt a shitty hand in life

Lol. This is not taking responsibility. 

In my view there is a collective shadow of people who do not take responsibility for their lives. So they seek utopian ideals and solutions, and absolve themselves of personal responsibility by blaming vast systems and historic causes. 

Your entire narrative is about blame and absolving black communities of responsibility for their own living conditions. It's like you wearing and reinforcing a lens of victimhood and powerlessness.

[Raptorsin7]

1 hour ago, Average Investor said:

I spent several hours actually watching the defense of this case and getting a feel for what actually happened. It seems as though the person that gave Kyle the gun was responsible for the gun charges, which they got dropped because the state wanted the person to testify against Kyle. That seemed to actually help his case. He came there to put out fires, provide first aid, and protect businesses. He was carrying the gun to protect himself if he did get attacked, which he did. 

Honestly, if he came there without that gun and was still with the same group, then Kyle would possibly be the one dead. Assuming that things still went similarly to how they did. He managed himself very well and did not just go spouting out bullets. All of the attackers were attempting to apply lethal force to him, and one literally pointed a gun at him. I am not sure how Kyle managed to remain so calm in selecting his targets after being hit in the head so many times. If you watch his own words on the defense it was extremely traumatic to him. He has some serious PTSD from this situation. 

Still he shouldn't have been there in the first place, but he had just as much rights to be there as his attackers. It boggles my mind that people are protesting and upset over the people who died, or got injured from that. Sure, it is sad that it happened, but who is seriously going to defend those guys trying to kill a 17 year old that was running away from them? 

Totally agree. People have lost their minds.

They are somehow okay with senseless violence, destruction of property, and poorly thought out political movements, but when someone takes responsibility for the safety and order of their community they try to condemn him. 

 

[Average Investor]

@Raptorsin7 I should note that I never did look up why the riot took place. I don't watch the news and only looked into this because my friend mentioned it. I would consider myself more of a progressive, which doesn't seem to "fit" my view point on this. I would still hold the same view if this guy was completely decked out in Donald trump clothing. Although, maybe a couple hits in the head could have been deserved. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Average Investor

[DocWatts]

32 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Can you show me an example of a leftist program that has inclusive personal responsibility with the social responsibility?

From my own life:

I'm cognizant that the comfortable middle class life that I enjoy is something I was able to achieve not only because of my hard work, but because I had available to me external support structures which helped me build the life I currently enjoy. These include good public schools, good infrastructure, a safe and stable environment, and economic opportunities.

What I'm advocating for would effectivly mean somewhat higher taxes for me, but I'm happy to pay it if it means someone just as deserving as myself has access to the same support structures I took for granted growing up.

I live outside Detroit, a heavily economically and racially segregated area, and I know firsthand the structural barriers that exist for people living just a half hour away from me that make it incredibly difficult escape the cycle of inter-generational poverty.

As a white person in a heavily segregated region, I'm cognizant that my interactions with the police and criminal justice system are of a very different nature than a 17 year old black kid living in the area. I know that I'm unlikely to be harassed by the police when out in public, or have my safety threatened during a routine traffic stop. 

Social (rather than personal) Responsibility compels me to not take the privileges I've benefited from for granted, and to take responsibility for the ways I've personally benefited from support structures not available to other people. Which means advocating for reforms to make the system fairer, lending support and solidarity to social movements and organizations which seek to address systemic injustice, and not project my privilege on to other people with different life experiences. On the contrary, it's my responsibility to listen to those people without judgement, and not be dismissive of thier lived experiences.

Edited November 20, 2021 by DocWatts

[Raptorsin7]

Just now, DocWatts said:

From my own life:

I'm cognizant that the comfortable middle class life that I enjoy is something I was able to achieve not only because of my hard work, but because I had available to me external support structures which helped me build the life I currently enjoy. These include good public schools, good infrastructure, a safe and stable environment, and economic opportunities.

What I'm advocating for would effective mean somewhat higher taxes for me, but I'm happy to pay it if it means someone just as deserving as myself has access to the same support structures I took for granted growing up. I live outside Detroit, a heavily economically and racially segregated area, and I know firsthand the structural barriers that exist for people living just a half hour away from me that make it incredibly difficult escape the cycle of inter-generational poverty.

As a white person in a heavily segregated region, I'm cognizant that my interactions with the police and criminal justice system are of a very different nature than a 17 year old black kid living in the area. I know that I'm unlikely to be harassed by the police when out in public, or have my safety threatened during a routine traffic stop. 

Social (rather than personal) Responsibility compels me to not take the privileges I've benefited from for granted, and to take responsibility for the ways I've personally benefited from support structures not available to other people. Which means advocating for reforms to make the system fairer, lending support and solidarity to social movements and organizations which seek to address systemic injustice, and not project my privilege on to other people with different life experiences. On the contrary, it's my responsibility to listen to those people without judgement, and not be dismissive of thier lived experiences.

lol okay. 

That's all great. But my pain point is until someone points to out to disenfranchised communities the path to success is personal responsibility, accountability, and self empowerment they will stay at the bottom.

 

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

That's all great. But my pain point is until someone points to out to disenfranchised communities the path to success is personal responsibility, accountability, and self empowerment they will stay at the bottom.

Personal responsibility is necessary but not sufficient. Without access to external support structures which allow people in disadvantaged situations to acquire social and financial capital, hard work alone is not going to get someone out of poverty. On the contrary, the default position for someone in a disempowered situation is to become an exploited wage slave working for subsistence wages.

It would be worth looking in to how inter-generational poverty actually works, as the moralizing you are doing is based on societal misconceptions of what poverty is, not understanding  how it damages people, and not knowing the systemic reasons as to why this tends to be a cyclical problem. If you haven't lived in or been around poverty, and haven't researched the issue, you're probably not aware of the ways that the stresses of poverty damage people psychologically and instills a scarcity mindset which makes it hard to succeed in life.

People who have a more systemic view of this issue know that portraying poverty as moral deficit doesn't help empower people to actually better their situation. External support structures meant to address the actual social and psychological barriers they face in their day to day lives does.

Edited November 20, 2021 by DocWatts

[Rilles]

@DocWatts Where did you find that pic? Its very useful.

[Loba]

Wow, I didn't know all this was happening, it's kind of fascinating how these events change history; I really hope it happens for the better, but as someone here said, gun reform didn't happen when the kids at Sandy Hook were shot, so it probably won't happen in this situation, either.  I'll have to go through this whole thread as I don't have a fully formulated opinion on it yet - just learned about this yesterday.

From what I have gathered, this kid went to a protest with a gun and was with a group of people because they wanted to bring some law and order to an unruly crowd; some looters saw him and followed him, attacked him when he ran, and he shot them.  Is that pretty much the shortened gist of it?  From my POV, both were in the wrong, but once the kid was in that situation, I don't know what other option he would have had and it is speculatory to assume that he would not have been followed if he did not have the gun.  We simply don't know that, because that's not what happened.

But a 17 year old kid really had no reason to be there doing the job of the police, and if you are not a cop, how would the crowd know?  There have been so many shootings in America.

[Arcangelo]

Rittenhouse Trial Taught Us This:

Political bias is so strong that can make people go blind, even actualizers.

Clear self defense.

[Rilles]

Can we close this thread now haha, yall are getting so riled up. The case is over. 

[Danioover9000]

@Arcangelo

3 hours ago, Arcangelo said:

Rittenhouse Trial Taught Us This:

Political bias is so strong that can make people go blind, even actualizers.

Clear self defense.

   It's blindingly actualized...org.

[Danioover9000]

@Raptorsin7

7 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Wait but actually improving the nature of policing would require even more funding for police? Then why would the wise and benevolent men and woman of the political movements rally around a slogan of defund the police?

But when you point out the schizophrenic nature of the movement they label you right wing and a reactionary lol

 

   Typical days of emotional manipulation and marketing in such a way to increase polarisation. A better branding would be restructure the police rather than defund the police, that way in doesn't trigger as much resistence to some sensible changes. @ForestLuv had the idea as well.

[Raptorsin7]

@DocWatts What in your view is the biggest issue(s) facing black America?

If you were in charge how would you address it?

Social responsibility can only go so far unless you have strong personal responsibility and accountability

Go watch Kevin Samuels. 

There is a massive issue in black America with personal responsibility and decision making, but people like yourself continue to obfuscate and defer responsibility themselves

I also agree that some form of collective responsibility and action is necessary. Like collective responsibility was necessary to abolish slavery. But it's a matter of degree and focus.

Someone like Colin Kaeapernick would have you think that black america is still struggling primarily due to systematic factors like the slaves were. but in my view this is foolish nonsense that does nothing to further the black community. He just gets to grandstand, and polarize the country in the process

Edited November 21, 2021 by Raptorsin7

[Fleetinglife]

Just want to note this to some people here who wrote whole paragraphs and theses justifying the motives and trying to high-mindedly rationalize and philosophize the mental processes and thought patterns of a 17 -18 year old adolescent kid that went behind his idea that was given support and greenlighted by his seniors and enviroment to LARP as CoD medic, as some people wrote as his motives, and assault weapon fire support for one of the most well protected, shielded and funded public service organizations in the country and vigilante for someone elses private property in a another federal state from protests that sparked as a result of extra-judicial killing of a discriminated minority in plain sight and that circulated the entire globe and world media by the very same official members of a public institution tasked with a simple, straight forward task and principle to 'Serve and Protect' all its law abiding citizens and all their rights, including the one to life, and not to kill them in plain sight for the whole public to see and to be abhorred and shocked by what they are seeing is being allowed to transpire and happen to one of their fellow members of their community, citizens and human beings without batting an eye in their country and for which some and many members of that public org were allowed before hand to get away with doing almost scott free in other cases to other members and humans of that socially discriminated group.

The subsequent rioting and looting erupted because of the explosion of emotions, anger and pain from these year long tragic extra judicial shooting and killing cases and injustices in policing against the members of this highly discriminated group being systematically unadressed and scurred away by the legal system in favor of those who shot them in all instances, justified or unjustified, and finally culminated in the blatant one now where the unequal power dynamic, violation of a humans basic rights, sadism, oppression and discrimination was so visible and carried out so much in the open for the whole world to see that it reached a boiling point that it if there is any dignity and empathy towards fellow humans left to protect in society it had to be acted upon and the system that was allowing this to reach up to this point under the guise of legality for a another human being to be able and allowed to do this to another human under any legal, social or moral pretext or excuse publicly had to be protested against and attacked since it enter the domain of inhumane attrocity at that point.

And this snot nosed mentally undeveloped minor with no experience or wider knowledge of how society that he lives in works or the way the world works was allowed and greenlighted to parachute across states to LARP as frontline medic and fire support for this very same shielded, socially and legaly privelleged organization and institution and to act as self appointed vigilante for strangers properties with no legal reprecussions went ahead and was allowed to be put in situation where he can carry in an assault rifle amongst a group of strangers and in the ball of desperate human anger, wrath and fury that were these protests over these contiuned systemic injustices and callousness of instituions and people who don't bat an eye at these perptrated inhumanities in their country and against their fellow citizens and humans and that continued to live their lives as if nothing happened - their radicalization was followed precisely because of no inkling of an outrage or radicalization of acting, lifting a finger or doing something, at least letting your voice of protest and outrage be herd, over these attrocities and inhumanties being allowed to be commited and to continue against their fellow humans and citizens - and was ultimately allowed after he felt threatend of the protestors and people there being threatend of seeing a stranger adolescent kid carry in the open an assault rifle and approach them in the night, in a country where news cycles are filled with a culture of fear of a mentally unstable lone shooter commiting either a massacre in school or somewhere else over any given reason because he was allowed to take his assualt rifle there, to in his probably dellusional larpy video game mode and probably seeing protestors through his lense of fear and panic and sudden insecurity over his personal safety and life at that moment of putting himself delibareltly in this highly precarious and dangerous situation that he was not mentally prepared for by carrying a lethal weapon in a group of unknown angry and impassioned strangers of actually being some kind of non-human beast like entities to him and started shooting when they threatend him to leave and refused to disarm after they chased him and beg for mercy and forgiveness for opening fire in a group of strangers he just inflitrated and instead kill two of them in panic without warning that he was going to shot them if they don't stop the chase. 

And some are choosing to identify with this inexperienced 17 - 18 year old snot nosed mentally not yet developd insecure minor and his right to be allowed to carry an assault rifle into a crowd of people he doesn't know and start shooting at the slightest threat of him being personally insecure after being allowed to put himself in a unnecesarry dangerous situation by his mentally undeveloped LARP in which a group of angry strangers feel threatend by a pressence of adolescent unknown kid carrying in an assault rifle in their midst without any warning or explanation and acting like he is going to self-enforce some vigilantism and policing to them and when they feel threatend by him and threathen him to leave he shoots and when they want to disarm this kid, that for all they know could be a mentally unstable active shooter wanting to intimidate, attack and shot other protestors at this point, he kills two of them in his insecure pearl clutching of his assault rifle and then goes and weeps crocodile tears in court to avoid any punishment and reprecussions for his actions - this reeks of personal insecurity as well in your lives when it comes to question of acting in and extending energy and solidarity to wider social problems and ills to your fellow humans. 

 

[DocWatts]

2 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Social responsibility can only go so far unless you have strong personal responsibility and accountability

Yes both are necessary, but personal responsibility and access to social and financial capital are required for success. We happen to live in a society where predatory institutions will ruthlessly exploit disempowered and marginalized people. Hence why someone can be working three jobs in America and still be on living on the edge of poverty, and one missed paycheck or medical bill away from financial destitution.

2 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@DocWatts What in your view is the biggest issue(s) facing black America?

If you were in charge how would you address it?

The biggest issue is systemic economic inequality stemming from generations of housing and employment discrimination whose effects are still with us today. 

Practices such as Red Lining, where people of color were prevented from living in areas where economic opportunity was readily available, led to the ghettoization of communities of color throughout the country. Black communities and households were systematically denied opportunities to build wealth and pass that on to their children for the majority of the history of this country, and it was only recently (within about half a century) that legal housing and employment discrimination was finally outlawed. That's within in living memory of many people alive today, just to put that in perspective.

Just outlawing discrimination without actually working to rectify the harm such practices caused to those communities has resulted in an enormous wealth and opportunity gap between white and black households. White households have on average ten to twenty times the amount of wealth of black households as a legacy of these practices.

Why does this matter? Well, just stop and think about it for a second. Public education, something that's supposed to in theory facilitate class mobility, perpetuates this inequality because they're funded by local property taxes. How good of an education you receive is determined by one's zip code. If you are born in an affluent neighborhood you likely have access to very good schools, and if you're born in a poor area your schools are going to be really bad, harming your chances on actually making it to college and transitioning in to a career. This sort of thing is what is meant when I've refer to Social Capital.

Is it a good thing that some exceptional individuals have been able to navigate past these obstacles and better their circumstances? Of course. But it's not a reasonable expectation for someone to have to be exceptional to have a chance at a decent life. And a small handful of people escaping this cycle does not change the fact that this is a systemic societal failure.

And all of that's leaving aside the issue of systemic racism within the criminal justice system that extends beyond just the police, which is a side effect of and re-enforced by the socio-economic disparities I outlined.

What would I do to address these issues? That's a large and complicated discussion because this is a widespread and systemic problem, but the Root issue that needs to be addressed is raising the socio-economic floor for everyone within the society, to be funded by reallocating how our tax money is collected and spent.

For starters, we need a much more robust social safety net so that no one who works a full time job is one medical bill or missed paycheck away from financial destitution and homelessness. Things like Healthcare and high quality Public Education need to be treated as basic rights. Public schools should be federally funded, with a set amount of funding per pupil (rather than the quality of school varying massively depending on zip code). Teachers need to be paid more much more generously than they are currently, and much better supported. 

We should be spending much more than we currently are for pro-social investment in to economically marginalized communities. Much more federal and state funding should go to funding infrastructure and basic services in these areas. After school programs and mental health services need to be much better funded than they are now. Incentives should be made for businesses to set up shop in these areas.

We pay for all of this with a wealth tax on billionaires, a VAT tax for corporations that can't be avoided by shifting assets overseas, and a %0.1 tax on financial transactions in speculative markets. End the failed War on Drugs, stop wasting money on a bloated and ineffectual revolving door prison system, and Institute a %15 tax on legalized maraujana. Reallocate of funds away from our bloated military budget, the bloated budgets of militarized police departments, and useless subsidies to mature industries such as  Fossil Fuel companies and weapons manufacturers.

This wouldn't just help Black America, it would lead to a much better society overall.

Edited November 21, 2021 by DocWatts

[Raptorsin7]

@DocWatts I would say the biggest issue is a dysfunctional culture and poor values. 

You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. You can spend as much money as you want, but until you address the mindsets and individual decision making in the community you will never make progress.

But we can agree to disagree. 

[DocWatts]

5 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@DocWatts I would say the biggest issue is a dysfunctional culture and poor values. 

You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. You can spend as much money as you want, but until you address the mindsets and individual decision making in the community you will never make progress.

But we can agree to disagree. 

Where does a dysfunctional culture come from?

Is it just an inherent quality, because people have genetic predispositions towards different types of behavior?

Or does it develop in response to social conditions? If it develops in response to social conditions, is it at all plausible that oppressive social conditions have something to do with that dysfunction?

[Raptorsin7]

11 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Where does a dysfunctional culture come from?

Is it just an inherent quality, because people have genetic predispositions towards different types of behavior?

Or does it develop in response to social conditions? If it develops in response to social conditions, is it at all plausible that oppressive social conditions have something to do with that dysfunction?

Doesn't really matter imo. You have to address it all the same.

Personal responsibility is the answer. But you can do it your way and see how that works out.

[Consept]

25 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Doesn't really matter imo. You have to address it all the same.

Personal responsibility is the answer. But you can do it your way and see how that works out.

I see this view a lot, that it's just personal responsibility, of course its very important but the fact is to change mindsets where people do take personal responsibility there needs to be education around that. 

I've worked in youth services and yes usually the family is at fault for having a negative mindset (this was not limited to black kids btw), but what created the really naughty kids was the whole environment which included teachers telling kids they'll end up in prison from about the age 7 or 8, having no strong, positive role models, having the school system basically give up on them, having criminals in their area groom them for crime. I don't think you appreciate how hard it is to get through that when your mind has been skewed essentially to think what is negative is good, it's hard to just say 'yeah I'm going to take personal responsibility', when you're not even aware of what that means.

You need role models and people that care for you and can give you good advice and keep you on track. Also, in my country, UK, they cut youth services budget buy a massive percentage which led to the closure of youth clubs which then correlated to higher crime statistics. So there's an obvious link that once less effort is made on a social level with kids from poor neighbourhoods, there is more crime or at least more poverty mindset. 

Saying essentially, people just need to get hold of themselves and take responsibility, really minimises the problem and doesn't take into account the full context of it. The answer includes personal responsibility but is not limited to it. 

Kevin Samuel's has some good points as to what the problems are and possibly becoming aware of them, but his content is very simple, he has no idea about socio-economic factors or doesn't really look at how the mindset develops, usually he's talking to black, somewhat wealthy women, which is very specific and different to the issue of poverty mindset, it's it's own thing.