Pickup feels fake and low conscious

[unborn_chicken]

@Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat @Etherial Cat

[Gesundheit2]

@Etherial Cat That's not what I was asking.

You seem to be disagreeing with Leo on two different things: his advice and his position. I don't care about his position one bit, it's his personal opinion. But I do care about improving myself. What do you think is wrong with his advice?

Edited November 15, 2021 by Gesundheit2

[Salvijus]

45 minutes ago, something_else said:

What advice would you give to guys who are shy, introverted, never seem to be able to attract girls, are always scared in social situations?

Not sure, well for starters I don't think pick up heals a person from shyness. Pick up can replace shyness with cockiness and arrogance. It teaches you to basicly to be an alpha male and dominate a woman and that sort of stuff. I don't see that as a big improvement honestly. Maybe even a degradation more than improvement. This is unhealthy pickup im talking about here.

For this anxiety of speaking with people to dissapear there are two solutions:

1.You build your self esteem alot and you think you're great, this often can lead to becoming a self-centered asshole

 2. You attain to certain level of harmony and inclusiveness and wholeness in yourself. Than all your interactions become filled with good will and respect for another person. You can’t achieve this quality of having a good will and love towards other by hitting on woman 24/7. It only comes as a consiquence of your spiritual practice. But it's the only real lasting solution that works I think. 

To learn the art of relationships no prior experience is needed and there're no techniques that make you better at it. All you have to do is have good will towards another, be honest, be self-aware and concious, don't be manipulative and self-centered and that's it. But for this you need consciouness work not pick up experience. Pick up experience will only give you confidence. What good is confidence if you're a self-centered asshole? It's better to stay shy in this case. ? 

Does this make sense or no? I'm just writing without thinking, I could be wrong about many things. 

Regards ?

Edited November 15, 2021 by Salvijus

[unborn_chicken]

Ideally we would work as a society on restoring a sense of community so everyone would effortlessly have social circles and relationships would flourish more naturally and the need for "pickup" would decline.

But I guess it's easier to tackle symptoms rather than root causes.

[zazen]

Women are more socially savy than men and thus even have the capability to be more manipulative by nature, that was their mode of survival and is evolved in their hardwiring. Their means of power/strength was covert (social) where as mans was overt (physical). In todays world we have moved from brawn to brain, and women are running circles around men in the social sphere. Men need way more socialisation time to keep up or even attract women. 

Beautiful women manipulate men all the time and get perks, power corrupts and absolute power can corrupt absolutely. Beauty is power to women. It isn't the tool (beauty, pick up skills, power) thats bad but the hand that wields it. 

Biology is hardware, and psychology is software.  We are human animals by hardware, but human beings by software, it is layered with psychology. Our biologies draw us to be attracted to certain traits (base survival needs) but our psychology also plays into it. We may be aroused instinctively to certain people, our psychology is what can help us decide if we want to stay with a certain person based on mutual interests values etc. Our biology and emotions are very strong and can over ride our psychology, you could be attracted and aroused by a guy who may not be good for you and you logically acknowledge this, maybe after the fact, but in the moment if he does the right things and your emotions are high people find it hard not to act on them especially paired.

Men have generally gotten softer, and the few strong men around are strong in the negative (jerks/bad boys). Still, women will say they aren't attracted to them (its politically correct and in the moment their being logical) but in the presence of such men and flooded with emotions its another story. Other guys see this and wish to emulate these guys. The nuance is that men need to learn to be strong in the positive and make women feel emotions as the jerks would, but still be respectful. A lot of guys are now growing up fatherless, and the school system is predominantly female so they don't get to see how men should behave and pick this up by osmosis. Hollywood and media is a poor substitute for this. 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by zazen

[zazen]

13 minutes ago, unborn_chicken said:

Ideally we would work as a society on restoring a sense of community so everyone would effortlessly have social circles and relationships would flourish more naturally and the need for "pickup" would decline.

But I guess it's easier to tackle symptoms rather than root causes.

This! A lot of what made us naturally more sociable has gone from society. Tech, screen time, isolated living, weaker bodies (from modern lifestyle) and thus weaker psychology and mental health. A healthy person is a vibrant person, a vibrant person is a sociable person.

I guess pick up is attempting to remedy the symptom as the root causes are too big to tackle. We aren't getting rid of the internet, big city living any time soon, now the meta verse in development only furthers us from reality. 

Essentially our biological evolution hasn't kept up with our technological/cultural evolution and its wreaking havoc on our biological instincts unless we'r very conscious of modern tools affects and live accordingly. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by zazen

[Flowerfaeiry]

1 hour ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

many women here called me and some other men "pimply incels"

What the heck.

[Salvijus]

@Khr @Knowledge Hoarder lol you guys. It's getting hot here ? they will close this thread if you continue. 

56 minutes ago, Khr said:

being so condescending, entitled, arrogant, aggressive and unpleasant. Women find men like this completely repulsive. Bitter people are repulsive in general.

But this woman is telling the truth here a little bit that could be healthy thing to look at. Unpleasant as it may sound, I know ? 

??

 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Salvijus

[Etherial Cat]

2 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@Etherial Cat That's not what I was asking.

You seem to be disagreeing with Leo on two different things: his advice and his position. I don't care about his position one bit, it's his personal opinion. But I do care about improving myself. What do you think is wrong with his advice?

The advice and the position he holds are not very distinctive.

My suggestion to Leo was to tone down on necessarily framing things between men and woman as a survival game where love and consciousness is impossible because women are too unconscious. He's just attracting his own self-fulfilling prophecy.

And by focusing on this mindset, he doesn't give women the opportunity for more consciousness and better quality affection, which is a pity. He doesn't believe its possible and we've got the skills for it. Which is a false belief. 

[Salvijus]

@Knowledge Hoarder but it was more of an observation than critism or advice... 

You're fine. She's exaggerating a little bit because she's venting. But I did pick up a similar vibe from you earlier that she described. A most unpleasant thing to hear probably. We are all retarded in the end so that should comfort you somewhat ?  it helps at least for me to come to terms when I do something stupid ? 

Don't know why I'm writing all this,

Regards ?

Edited November 15, 2021 by Salvijus

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Khr said:

being so condescending, entitled, arrogant, aggressive and unpleasant. Women find men like this completely repulsive. Bitter people are repulsive in general. Bitterness and aggression will lead to getting more bitterness and aggression in return. Women cannot be in their feminine when they are around men like this.

Men speak more directly, women indirectly. When men give advice to other men it can hurt women's sensibilities. It is how men communicate with each other, even to the point of insulting each other jokingly, for women looking from the outside in they would think men are stupid for this lol. Now men and women share the same space in discussion forums, gyms etc and men have to police their communication as to not offend (maybe a factor in modern cancel culture as we have become weaker/overly feminised as a society?)

 

 It is a testament to mens empathy and self -restraint that he doesn't speak as freely around women as women do around men. Men forego some of their natural way of being to make women comfortable.  Evolutionarily women needed the approval of the social group to ensure their survival more so than men, they relied on social ties rather than their own muscular strength that men possessed to survive in the wild. For this reason they try not to offend as easily and are more socially savvy. 

 

For men to be strong enough to allow women to be their feminine selves, men need to communicate about truth objectively (even if it hurts feelings) and develop and push society in a better direction. Unfortunately discussion is being diluted and stalled under the banner of 'toxic' 'misogynistic' 'hateful' when its just how men communicate, also known as locker room talk. 

 

Women in their sensitivity appear to be more empathetic and they are, however mans relative insensitivity allows him to be more empathetic in the sense that when you're not easy to offend, you're better equipped to cater to others, when you're self consumed with emotion this is harder to do.  Men and more so women trust their emotions and act mostly on emotion. For an emotional person if it feels right then it is right and although some things don't feel good to hear or believe they may in reality be sound and correct. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by zazen

[something_else]

37 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Not sure, well for starters I don't think pick up heals a person from shyness. Pick up can replace shyness with cockiness and arrogance. It teaches you to basicly to be an alpha male and dominate a woman and that sort of stuff. I don't see that as a big improvement honestly. Maybe even a degradation more than improvement. This is unhealthy pickup im talking about here.

Yea, that's unhealthy pickup. I'm talking about healthy pickup which amounts more to learning to socialise with women than trying to dominate them. That's simply learning how to talk to women in a way that is attractive and not repulsive

Quote

For this anxiety of speaking with people to dissapear there are two solutions:

1.You build your self esteem alot and you think you're great, this often can lead to becoming a self-centered asshole

 2. You attain to certain level of harmony and inclusiveness and wholeness in yourself. Than all your interactions become filled with good will and respect for another person. You can’t achieve this quality of having a good will and love towards other by hitting on woman 24/7. It only comes as a consiquence of your spiritual practice. But it's the only real lasting solution that works I think. 

Theoretically you could do both of these from your couch. But I suspect that would not help you that much. Eventually the rubber hits the road and you have to see if you can actually go out and talk to people with out being terrified

Hitting on women 24/7 is perhaps the extreme. Maybe I'm light when it comes to it, but I go out once or twice a week to loud social places, have fun, and make sure I push my comfort zone which usually involves talking to girls. And it's done wonders for my social anxiety, far more than sitting at home for the past 5 years has done. And that time was filled with lots of spiritual work and attempts at inner confidence work which weirdly are pretty much exactly your point 1 and 2. I can say for absolute certainty that they did not work for me personally, at least not on their own while I sat at home on my couch

If you combine point 2 and an element of point 1 with frequent socialisation then that would be a good combo, but those alone without any practice won't help much I don't think

46 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

To learn the art of relationships no prior experience is needed and there're no techniques that make you better at it. All you have to do is have good will towards another, be honest, be self-aware and concious, don't be manipulative and self-centered and that's it. But for this you need consciouness work not pick up experience. Pick up experience will only give you confidence. What good is confidence if you're a self-centered asshole? It's better to stay shy in this case.

I sort of agree. A good relationship should feel natural and like 'things just work' between you.

But, you're missing the key reason pickup exists in the first place: lots of men cannot just 'get into a relationship' even if they would make great partners when they're in one. This is because they can't attract a girl in the first place. Can you see how that is a huge problem from a guys perspective? It isn't one you have to deal with that much as a girl which is perhaps why some women here don't get why pickup/socialisation practice type stuff is so popular among guys

[Flowerfaeiry]

I think pick up is freaking awesome. I’ve even learned a lot about myself through it. I feel flattered when a man asks for my number. Any interaction with a man is another opportunity to deepen my relationship with my feminine essence. 

[Salvijus]

8 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

If you bite me, I'll bite you back. That's how I work

Lol, fair enough ? 

[zazen]

10 minutes ago, Khr said:

I feel that this is more of a “feeler” vs “thinker” debate rather than male vs female. Many men do get offended and don’t get along with “animalistic” men you’re describing because they are more sensitive and in touch with their emotional side. That is why the “woke culture” is appealing to them now compared to the way things were before. Same thing as some women are naturally more logical and “thinking” type, so they probably wouldn’t get offended either and have more of a just “focus on the business” kind of attitude.

You can see it on this forum too, how many men actually do agree that many aspects of pickup seems damaging and hurtful. Leo is a “thinker” and his approach and the way he talks will appeal more to “thinkers” and will seem too rough and insensitive to “feelers”, regardless of the gender.

Thats true, women are more the feeler type and men the thinker type. It's why we often hear women say I feel and men I think in stating their points. Power (in men) devoid of any feeling would be destructive and so men should balance it by being more in touch with feelings, and women more with thinking as to not let emotions cloud thinking. The bias from this forum is that the people on it are a lot more intuitive and conscious so if we go by how the women or men are here we project most men and women are like that ie that women go for low conscious behaviour which Leo mentioned. Of course the women here (on a consciousness forum) will say no, but I think the advice is directed at men dealing with the average out there. 

[gettoefl]

2 minutes ago, Flowerfaeiry said:

I think pick up is freaking awesome. I’ve even learned a lot about myself through it. I feel flattered when a man asks for my number. Any interaction with a man is another opportunity to deepen my relationship with my feminine essence. 

pickup is dire to be honest

guy scans venue to seek gal he wants sex with and approaches the one most likely to oblige

his mind is made up before he even speaks to her, his only mission is to have sex with the least trouble in the least time

he doesn't want to know her just bed her

i feel ashamed of the male gender and pity on the female gender, the only winner is biology with the prospect of an addition to the species

[Salvijus]

@something_else hmmmm... okey okey. You win. Pickup can help you POTENTIALLY. To improve your.... what? Aaaa, confidence? What else? Can it teach you to be more respectful and inclusive? Aaaa, maybe? Potentially? 

But in the end it's only logical that if you want to learn relationship you have to become a loving, respectful, good will generating person, only then there is a possibility of having a harmonious interaction. Otherwise where there's no love and respect things turn nasty and dark once the sex motive is is fulfilled. And to develop these qualities, you need consciouness work not pick up experience, does that make sense or no? It does make sense to me somehow. 

Also just because you got your anxiety to approach woman dissapear somewhat. That is not a sign that you improved your ability to connect with people and have a harmonious successful relationship, no? Many people have no anxiety to speak to woman but they are still assholes. The point of healthy pickup is to develop your ability to connect with people not to overcome approach anxiety imo. No? I don't know myself even lol. But it seems to make sense so far at least for me. I think we have drifted somewhere into another topic now. 

If we are talking about healthy pickup than landing a few girls is not an achievement it's just ape buiseness. But if learning to connect to people on a deep level is what healthy pickup is all about. I would say it's a simple consiquence of consciouness work. I don't see another option here.. 

?

Edited November 15, 2021 by Salvijus

[Gesundheit2]

2 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

The advice and the position he holds are not very distinctive.

His advice and position are worlds apart. In fact, they are almost contradictory. On the one hand, he is saying that it's all a survival game, and yet on the other hand, he's not demonizing the game or trying to ignore or bypass it. He's actually being very transparent about this whole thing. He is loving the game and embracing it. And he's being very conscious, ethical, responsible, and respectful towards women with his advice.

Honestly, you just seem to be bothered by his transparency. You want sex and relationships to be viewed in the light of innocence and spontaneity rather than survival and gaming. You don't want the truth to ruin this fantasy for you. But that's not quite how it works for us, men. We don't think of sex and relationships as something that happens spontaneously, or naturally. Even relationships that start from social circles, they all have a gaming component, from initial eye contact, to approaching, to talking, to escalating, to sex. Even the most advanced guys perceive dating as a game. But of course they don't tell you that. They're good at hiding that from you, they're smooth, which is precisely what makes them advanced. I am a guy, and I have countless guy friends. I have incel friends and player friends, and others somewhere in the middle. All of them perceive dating similarly. This is reality. It's not an ideology or a way of framing things. When I told my ex that, she told me that she felt afraid and shocked because she didn't imagine men to be that way. But, well, we are. That's the brutal truth. There's no such thing as innocent mating. Innocence is just something women imagine because they're on the receiving end. Try imagining what it might be like to be on the other end.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Gesundheit2

[Gesundheit2]

@Flowerfaeiry

1 hour ago, Flowerfaeiry said:

I think pick up is freaking awesome. I’ve even learned a lot about myself through it. I feel flattered when a man asks for my number. Any interaction with a man is another opportunity to deepen my relationship with my feminine essence. 

[Lyubov]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You can say whatever you want but most women are attracted to low consciousness behavior. Which is why the most low consciousness guys get laid the most and the most conscious guys get laid the least.

um, that's not true at all... I have seen little to no correlation between the two.