Dating advice

[Illusory Self]

I find it incredibly easy to get dates from online game because I am good looking & have good pics but a majority of the dates I go on tend to fail which seems to further my depression in this field.

Whenever I go on a date with a girl, I do not try and be physical whatsoever. The talk is very platonic. When i'm sitting there, I notice my own mind generating incredibly limiting beliefs and I always tend to get incredibly depressed when I am on the date. I completely hate socializing and find it incredibly draining but at the same time would like to have a few girls around that I see for sex. 

I know I need to rewire my brain to be more successful with women, but whenever I go on dates. It is almost like my mind goes into autopilot depressive mode & after the date when nothing happens, I feel even worse. Thoughts go into my mind like "how do physically escalate without being awkward"? as well as many other depressive thoughts which automatically happen like "I am way to introverted & don't even enjoy this" etc.. I often ask myself why am I even doing dating or socialising if I hate it so much. The dates are so draining, like usually they are 2-3 hours of talking about platonic stuff & I don't even try anything. I beat myself up a lot when I go home for wasting my time on this. I get scared of physically escalating as if she is going to reject me.

My social skills are SO bad & awkard, I don't even enjoy socialising & doubt I ever will but I want to do it in order to get my sexual needs met. I feel the more dates I go on & if I don't try to consciously improve in some manner, it might feed into depressive states of mind.

I have a date tonight with a girl from bumble & we are meeting at a bar nearby. How shall I consciously try & improve. I feel like this is just going to be another draining date with nothing that will happen. I do occasionaly get girls that try to make moves on me but thats rare.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Illusory Self

[Leo Gura]

1) Start getting excited for dates. Make them fun and playful and interesting.

2) Start by hugging her as soon as you see her, and then keep touching her throughout the night. Learn the Kino Escalation Ladder and practice it.

3) Bounce around to multiple locations. Walk and hold hands with her.

4) Kiss her half-way into the date, not at the end.

- - - -

Stop being a pussy and start making moves. The longer you delay the harder and more awkward it will get.

Your dates are boring because you are not in touch with your raw desire to fuck her. Look at her like a wolf looks at a rabbit. Stop suppressing your sexual desire and intent. Let her turn you on and then use that to turn her on. Dates are not interviews. Dates are there so you can fuck her. Let that guide you. Stop being polite and formal about it.

Nothing is happening because you are being too big of a pussy to lead it to your bedroom.

LEAD!

If she shows up to a date that means she is interested in sex with you. All you gotta do is lead and be fun.

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Illusory Self said:

I find it incredibly easy to get dates from online game because I am good looking & have good pics but a majority of the dates I go on tend to fail which seems to further my depression in this field.

It’s not failure, it’s what playing games feels like. Question the lens, not the results, not yourself. When you’re playing games, it’s only ever with yourself. That is indeed discordant, and to continue believing it’s because of others is indeed exhausting. Understand the emotions you’re experiencing, and why depression is not an emotion. Notice, acknowledge, self referential thoughts, so you can notice they aren’t true. Be honest about what you’re experiencing. 

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Whenever I go on a date with a girl, I do not try and be physical whatsoever. The talk is very platonic. When i'm sitting there, I notice my own mind generating incredibly limiting beliefs and I always tend to get incredibly depressed when I am on the date. I completely hate socializing and find it incredibly draining but at the same time would like to have a few girls around that I see for sex. 

If you just want girls around for sex, there are escorts. 

Maybe, sex isn’t actually what you want. Maybe it’s what you think you want. Make a dreamboard. Write what you actually want. 

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I know I need to rewire my brain to be more successful with women, but whenever I go on dates. It is almost like my mind goes into autopilot depressive mode & after the date when nothing happens, I feel even worse. Thoughts go into my mind like "how do physically escalate without being awkward"? as well as many other depressive thoughts which automatically happen like "I am way to introverted & don't even enjoy this" etc.. I often ask myself why am I even doing dating or socialising if I hate it so much. The dates are so draining, like usually they are 2-3 hours of talking about platonic stuff & I don't even try anything. I beat myself up a lot when I go home for wasting my time on this. I get scared of physically escalating as if she is going to reject me.

You’re using others and sex like one uses a substance or fast food etc to feel better. Using others to make yourself feel better is manipulation by aversion and is thus of course indeed discordant, and contrary to what you actually want. It is by relinquishing control and trusting in the universe (not other people) that what you want can be received. 

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My social skills are SO bad & awkard, I don't even enjoy socialising & doubt I ever will but I want to do it in order to get my sexual needs met. I feel the more dates I go on & if I don't try to consciously improve in some manner, it might feed into depressive states of mind.\

‘Sexual needs’ is thought attachment. Are you having sex right now? No. Are you fine… breathing, functioning, etc? Yes. Believing your sexual needs must be met by others is incredible arrogance and indeed discordant. It doesn’t feel very good to objectify people, to reduce them to things which exist to meet your needs.  

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I have a date tonight with a girl from bumble & we are meeting at a bar nearby. How shall I consciously try & improve. I feel like this is just going to be another draining date with nothing that will happen. I do occasionaly get girls that try to make moves on me but thats rare.

Let the focus on sex go. Let focusing on that you need to try and or improve go. Notice you’re already experiencing ‘the draining of energy’, and thus it is related to the thoughts, and not the actual date (you aren’t typing this on a date). Don’t expect, anticipate, or think about sex at all. There’s too much momentum of discord around the notion. Give it (ruminating on sex) a rest for a month or so altogether (but go on dates if you want to, for the fun of it). Think of her like a person just like you, with feeling, emotions, ideas, dreams, desires, interests, funny stories from her past which could be shared & laughed about, etc. Feel the connection in relating. Fill your dreamboard up so you easily have things to talk about which are exciting and interesting for you. She’ll resonate with that naturally.  Aim to have fun. If sex happens, it happens. Let it be a natural byproduct of you, having fun, being you, experiencing what you’ve written on your board. She might want to have fun being her, with you, too. 

[Spiral]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

3) Bounce around to multiple locations. Walk and hold hands with her.

4) Kiss her half-way into the date, not at the end.

Holding hands and kissing her(rather then teasingly not do so) seems more romantic than sexual. 
 

I do like other tips tho.

[Illusory Self]

On 11/10/2021 at 0:09 PM, Leo Gura said:

1) Start getting excited for dates. Make them fun and playful and interesting.

2) Start by hugging her as soon as you see her, and then keep touching her throughout the night. Learn the Kino Escalation Ladder and practice it.

3) Bounce around to multiple locations. Walk and hold hands with her.

4) Kiss her half-way into the date, not at the end.

On 11/10/2021 at 0:09 PM, Leo Gura said:

- - - -

Stop being a pussy and start making moves. The longer you delay the harder and more awkward it will get.

Your dates are boring because you are not in touch with your raw desire to fuck her. Look at her like a wolf looks at a rabbit. Stop suppressing your sexual desire and intent. Let her turn you on and then use that to turn her on. Dates are not interviews. Dates are there so you can fuck her. Let that guide you. Stop being polite and formal about it.

Nothing is happening because you are being too big of a pussy to lead it to your bedroom.

LEAD!

If she shows up to a date that means she is interested in sex with you. All you gotta do is lead and be fun.

@Leo Gura

Just went on another date tonight & of course I blew it. These ideas are great in theory but when you have 0 social skills, don't have any friends you talk to it can be quite hard to implement. Unfortunately she was sitting across from me at the table so it was hard to get physical with her. I tried touching her hand when it was on the table & she just moved it back in an uncomfortable manner. That of course made me nervous to try & escalate anymore. She was attractive so feel really bummed out that I messed this one up. After I went to the toilet she was on her phone to her friend and said I have to go.. 1 hour into the date.

I just hate socialising so much & never know what to say as I never do it. I don't know if it will be a better idea to delete all the dating apps as it may make my self esteem really bad as I have recently been on 3 dates over the last few days and messed them all up. I beat myself up internally for not taking action, it feels like some self-fulfilling prophecy.

I know I am too much of a pussy but I am SO deficient in this area of my life. It almost feels like you just don't know how to act or what to say or what to do. I don't even know if I want to do this, just feels like a whole time waste, what is the point if I don't even enjoy socializing. 

You can say lead, be fun, don't be a pussy but it feels incredibly hard with bad internal mindsets, zero socialization skills etc... right now I feel each date that feels, causes these internal mindsets to get worse. 

I am debating wether to delete the apps & just do cold approach instead to build skills up that way or this a good way to build socializing skills up. I just need to try & not let it affect me (it does feel hard though). I guess one does need skills on dates also. I do seem to get really depressive thoughts after messing up a date.

It sucks when a girl sits opposite you, feels harder to escalate. I also don't really have my life purpose handled right now & know I still need to do work to get more clarity on that, so this also feels like a distraction from that. Maybe I need to work on that first or both at the same time, is a more balanced life better?

 

What would you do if you were in my situation?

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Illusory Self Sort of since we are in a similar situation. I just continued with the online dating course as recommended by the course. I also have an issue and this one guy inspired me a bit by mentoning to show up as your best self and be your best possible self and to not just be you. Last date I also messed up by not escalating at all. Also, I had 0 sexual attraction for her even though she was pretty I could not believe it that I had 0 attraction for her as I meet her in real life. She wore a unisex jacket that I have at home. Which is just plain bad wardrobe... IMO.

From the course and books I have been reading and sort of quality infos I filtered for now initiating some level of touch like holding hands, holdings hands sort of across the table at the first date sounds a bit to romantic and puts . I don't know if this was at a bar as well as a coffe shop, restaurant etc. So I am making assumptions. I presume walking somewhere would be better I chickened out even at that last date so imagine and she was fine with me touching her. I even asked her in some weired way anyway.....

The one guy in the course who inspired me today said that approaching women there is nothing else that makes him more excited than approaching women and he just did the online dating stuff to become a better version of himself. 

Anway, I am not invested into messing up your process. Thanks for posting makes me not feel so alone when girls delete me on apps when I test stuff. I don't even get that much dates. 

I sort of thought about a facilitating question to initiate touch.

@Leo Gura
What would for instance be a situation or for instance bet you can make to initiate touch in a high energy state for instance asking smth. stupid such as arm wrestling when at a bar. Dancing at a club obviously or just smth question that would initiate the process of physical escalation. Saying stuff like you have soft lips then brushing her hair away and kissing her. Does this work or is this a figment of my imgination/inspiration right now?
 

[Illusory Self]

1 hour ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

@Illusory Self Sort of since we are in a similar situation. I just continued with the online dating course as recommended by the course. I also have an issue and this one guy inspired me a bit by mentoning to show up as your best self and be your best possible self and to not just be you. Last date I also messed up by not escalating at all. Also, I had 0 sexual attraction for her even though she was pretty I could not believe it that I had 0 attraction for her as I meet her in real life. She wore a unisex jacket that I have at home. Which is just plain bad wardrobe... IMO.

From the course and books I have been reading and sort of quality infos I filtered for now initiating some level of touch like holding hands, holdings hands sort of across the table at the first date sounds a bit to romantic and puts . I don't know if this was at a bar as well as a coffe shop, restaurant etc. So I am making assumptions. I presume walking somewhere would be better I chickened out even at that last date so imagine and she was fine with me touching her. I even asked her in some weired way anyway.....

The one guy in the course who inspired me today said that approaching women there is nothing else that makes him more excited than approaching women and he just did the online dating stuff to become a better version of himself. 

Anway, I am not invested into messing up your process. Thanks for posting makes me not feel so alone when girls delete me on apps when I test stuff. I don't even get that much dates. 

I sort of thought about a facilitating question to initiate touch.
 

@ValiantSalvatore I even have a girl I have had sex with a few times  because she luckily took initiative on our date but I don't even know what to say to maintain it, even though she seems really into me. Her being really attractive may make it more of an issue. The problem does not even stop for me even if I do sleep with a girl. I am displaying non neediness but then I question is waiting 2-3 days per message to long or should I message more? I honestly get scared to message her & never know what to say. Should I be honest with her about my likes & passions? What do I talk about when i'm with her?  I especially question if I played the right persona when we are together... what if I am playing the wrong persona and she is slowly losing attraction.. ugh I hate all these ego games. I feel like I am acting based on how I want someone to perceive me 

Just over analyze everything... maybe it is because it is the only girl I am seeing and not coming from an abundance mindset. 

[Javfly33]

@Illusory Self sounds you have to release a ton of emotional baggage of the ego to actually be fully present, express, and enjoy social interactions.

You should really treat this as a focus and not treat it like it's nothing. Focus for the next year on going full throttle to desestruct this social anxiety/shame/lack of masculine energy/love you got there going on. Psychedelics, pick up/social challenges, etc are some methods I've used. But of course that pain you feel over and over lately will be the main drive to make you put to work and sort this thing out .

I'm also in a similar process as yours but I've recently had some interesting growth that has made me quite motivated. If you ever want to chat I have my DM open. Good luck !

Edited November 11, 2021 by Javfly33

[Leo Gura]

@Illusory Self Buddy, learn game. Your looks don't work without game. You need to become a leader and a closer. Game will teach you that.

2 hours ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

I sort of thought about a facilitating question to initiate touch.

@Leo Gura
What would for instance be a situation or for instance bet you can make to initiate touch in a high energy state for instance asking smth. stupid such as arm wrestling when at a bar. Dancing at a club obviously or just smth question that would initiate the process of physical escalation. Saying stuff like you have soft lips then brushing her hair away and kissing her. Does this work or is this a figment of my imgination/inspiration right now?
 

Dude, once you get experienced with physical escalation you can go physical immediately in night game with no pretenses.

I open most girls with physical and just by looking at the reaction on her face I know whether I can immediately escalate further. Within 30 seconds I can have my hands holding her hips and rubbing her body in a sexy way and she is loving it.

It takes practice and calibration.

Do a 30 day challenge where every girl you open with physical and escalate as rapidly as she will let you. This is for night game only.

Physical opens are polarizing. They force her to immediately decide if she is into you. You either get blown out immediately or it hooks like crazy. It's a great way to cut the bullshit and see if a girl is DTF.

[ZenSwift]

On 11/10/2021 at 4:09 AM, Leo Gura said:

4) Kiss her half-way into the date, not at the end.

 

On 11/10/2021 at 4:09 AM, Leo Gura said:

If she shows up to a date that means she is interested in sex with you. All you gotta do is lead and be fun.

@Leo Gura

I'm looking some some clarification of information over here.

• Here I read that you have to kiss her half way through the date, on the first date, which makes total sense. 
• Then I hear that if she shows up to a date then she is subconsciously interested in having sex with you, which is a pretty valuable insight.
• Now I've been reading The Kino Escalation Ladder pdf and I read here that it's more ideal to only start kissing her only when you are to escalate into a complete close, and this is due to primal programming having kissing ALWAYS leading to sex. 

Does this mean that it is more effective to have sex with the girl on the first date?

In which establishing a kiss half way through would only be ideal if the ramp was immediately after?

 

Also, I'm curious as to why constantly moving around is an important tip, is that because it tests for attraction if she is willing to follow you around? Because it opens up the opportunity to go to a sex location for a close? 

 

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Leo Gura Allright, I'll inform myself and get more into physical escalation. As well as do the physical escalation challenge. I doubt there will be a lot of going out and I'll still see what I can do. It would be great to at least have some people to go out with, I am asking. It somehow did not work for me when I see a face reaction I can't really interpret it till now, the last girl was not able to hold eye contact and she told me she had issue with that. So, there was no real way of me telling without more direct experience. 

I'll just see what I can do at this point. More info would really be good. As well as less demonizing for male energy I feel very guilty and I am currently torn as I can't enact it fully because of injury that I can't fix right now. I just don't know how masculine my energy is since I can't regard most other males that I know as masculine somehow after doing very masculine activities like zazen and weightlifting. I can be very present, yet tbh I can also just forget her in that state. I often feel it's more easy for me when I am in my feminine and everything is flow etc. So, I don't know I really have no freaking clue. 

@Illusory Self

I don't like to give advise based on not having enough direct experience I could give you some common sense stuff, yet you would already know that I presume 100% so I just link this guy and hope he gives a good response! @flowboy

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, ZenSwift said:

 

• Now I've been reading The Kino Escalation Ladder pdf and I read here that it's more ideal to only start kissing her only when you are to escalate into a complete close, and this is due to primal programming having kissing ALWAYS leading to sex. 

Does this mean that it is more effective to have sex with the girl on the first date?

In which establishing a kiss half way through would only be ideal if the ramp was immediately after?

Kissing is not always gonna lead to sex. It's totally fine to kiss and even heavy makeout without sex on the same night.

Realistically many girls will not sleep with you on 1st date. But kissing on a first date is pretty much mandatory in my book if there is chemistry. No girl will have a problem with that.

Of course it's more effective to have sex with her as soon as possible because she has no loyalty or investment in your before sex. She's gonna waste a lot of your time the longer you take to close. But you shouldn't be too pushy or thirsty about it. You have to accept the reality that sex on the first date will often not happen for whatever reasons, many of which could simply be logistical.

You don't need to close just because you kissed a girl. Relax. Just don't make her feel slutty or cheap. That's the key.

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Also, I'm curious as to why constantly moving around is an important tip, is that because it tests for attraction if she is willing to follow you around? Because it opens up the opportunity to go to a sex location for a close?

There are several reasons:

1) It develops her trust in you as the leader. She needs to get comfortable following your lead. So the more you can lead her the better.

2) It tests how compliant/invested she is in you. If she's not following your lead, that's your clue it's not going well.

3) The more locations you bounce her to, the more she will feel like she has known you for a long time. It makes 1 date feel like 3 dates. Which means things will move along faster. Why waste time doing 3 dates when you can do one date in 3 locations and get the same effect?

4) And of course eventually you have to lead her to the bedroom. When that opportunity arises she has to feel totally comfortable about following you into the bedroom. If you just try to go from a sit down date to your bedroom that is gonna feel too abrupt and awkward and she will likely not follow. You want to make the transitions as smooth and natural as possible so there is no awkwardness.

[JTL]

@Leo Gura

I met a girl during a party once and we began talking and she got attracted to me, i did not know then. I did not escalate at the time since she had a boyfriend. But fastforward 1 year she dm-ed me and wanted to know how it was going? I said  I had been to cool restaurant the day before, and she was like, maybe we should go there sometime, hihi?, then I understood she liked me, and I got nervous as I always do when I know a girl like me. should I ask her out? should talk a bit more with her in a sexy way? all these questions where racing in my head, but then I understood she already is attracted to me so I can relax and just set up the date. that feeling  

well it ended with we went to the same party as a date, I made sure she understood it was a date. When I met her at the party I just went straight to her and gave her a hug, so far everything good. but, I fucked up badly  began touching her in a gentel way and she responded okey, so went for a kiss but she rejected it and told me we barley knew eachother( that was true) and she wanted to talk, but I was maybe a tad to horny for that, and kept touching her and holding hands but she did not want to kiss me, she began talking about a few months before she had come out from a abusive relationship and did not want to rush anything. so I did not got laid that night. was it the lack of report with her that I missed? and one more thing you said attraction happens relative soon 5-60 min, and you should not be to nice more like a bad boy til you clearly reach the hook up point is that true?  

[Leo Gura]

@JTL Your problem was that you didn't build enough rapport with her first. In a dating situation you gotta build rapport and comfort, then start going for kisses and things.

She told you exactly what you did wrong: "we barely knew each other".

[JTL]

@Leo Gura is that for touching aswell?

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, JTL said:

@Leo Gura is that for touching aswell?

Your touching needs to be calibrated to her mood and receptivity.

If you touch her shoulder and she gives you a cold look, that tells you to not escalate any further unless you first make her more comfortable.

All physical escalation needs to put a smile on her face. If you are escalating and she's not smiling, you're out of touch and this will quickly creep her out.

You need to watch her face at all times to know what she's feeling and how into you she is.

If there is no chemistry physical escalation will not work. There has to be a foundation of attraction and chemistry.

[ZenSwift]

@Leo Gura Thanks Leo!