You’re Imaging Yourself

[BipolarGrowth]

9 hours ago, Inception said:

@BipolarGrowth

I am. That’s what’s in my present experience. Yet you’re telling me I’m not. Am I supposed to take your word for it? Wouldn’t that just be more belief?

I am is another way of pointing to what I say when I say subjective present moment experience. I just prefer the pointer I use as it seems to have less confusion around the self/Self interaction. 
 

“you” exist as much as the text on the screen indicating that I am a real conscious entity. You’ll never experience my consciousness and yours at the same time. Everything is your field of conscious experience. The ego is a tiny part. My appearance to you is also a tiny part. Both are completely real, but if you don’t get the ego out of the way, you’ll lose ability to truly connect to Self to see how we are both real on the level of perception yet ultimately the conceptions of us only point to assumptions. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by BipolarGrowth

[Inception]

@Mason Riggle

On 11/1/2021 at 6:58 PM, Mason Riggle said:

Who is it that you are addressing this statement to? The me who you are imagining?

Yes, and all the others that I’m imaging.

On 11/1/2021 at 6:58 PM, Mason Riggle said:

Or is it me who is confused.. was the statement written by a you who I'm imagining?

From your POV (which I’m imaging), yes.

On 11/1/2021 at 6:58 PM, Mason Riggle said:

"Imagining" sounds like something I am actively doing, intentionally or unintentionally. But can I stop doing it? How? More imagining?

I suspect that you are actively, although unconsciously, doing it. You have to in order to have a sense of reality. I mean the post didn’t write itself, right?

Maybe you could stop imaging it, if you deconstructed your mind enough, but you’d literally lose it in the process. So… maybe don’t?

The same goes for me: I’m imaging you, imaging me. I have to, otherwise my reality wouldn’t make sense.

On 11/1/2021 at 6:58 PM, Mason Riggle said:

"Being" seems to be a word that doesn't carry these two implications as heavily.  You are Being Yourself. Reality is Being Itself.  I am [being myself].

If we’re to take the non-dual perspective, maybe it would be more accurate to say that Consciousness is “imaging” both of us as illusory separate egos.

[Inception]

@snowyowl

On 11/1/2021 at 7:36 PM, snowyowl said:

What about memory? By this logic I'm just making them up as I go along and believing that they relate to past events. But it doesn't feel like I'm actively creating them, rather I'm accessing thoughts, feelings, images etc which are already there in my mind - in a subconscious level until called up and become temporarily conscious.

I’ve been thinking a lot about memories lately. Aren’t they also just imaginary? How do you know the entire physical universe wasn’t created 5 seconds ago?

On 11/1/2021 at 7:36 PM, snowyowl said:

Imagine if, in future, we can do a brain scan and actually find the neural pathways which correspond to our memories and make a connection between external events creating physical impressions in the brain, which 'are' my awareness of the past. Does that still mean I'm imagining it all, or is it all already in existence, with "I'm imagining this" as the ego's story to claim ownership?  

What is a brain? How do you know you have a one? No offense. Have you ever seen it? Where did you get the idea from?

What is the future? Where is it? What does it taste like?

[snowyowl]

2 minutes ago, Inception said:

I’ve been thinking a lot about memories lately. Aren’t they also just imaginary? How do you know the entire physical universe wasn’t created 5 seconds ago?

Well if I am imagining my memories it's not an active, conscious process, it just feels like I need to make the effort to retrieve something that's already there in subconscious, but that could be an illusion. 

The thing about the universe being created 5 secs ago, well crikey that sounds like someone with extreme alzheimers or memory loss. Creation itself is a process in time, so without time you can't have creation, or change.

How do you know that reality wasn't created a billionth of a second ago, or a trillionth? 

The logic of this is that there are no processes, but reality is appearing out of nothingness infinitely fast, an infinite number of times per second. Or that time is an illusion and there is no creation, just a single unchanging thing. 

3 minutes ago, Inception said:

What is a brain? How do you know you have a one? No offense. Have you ever seen it? Where did you get the idea from?

What is the future? Where is it? What does it taste like?

This appearance is my brain. I'm turning it round and saying there is only my brain which I can be certain of: when I 'open my eyes' what am I looking at, an external reality, or the contents of my own brain?  (btw I'm not creating a distinction between brain and mind). 

[Shin]

I'm pretty sure I didn't imagined myself becoming bald at 30.

So you're wrong

[Inception]

@snowyowl

Maybe you’re creating your memories as you’re accessing them. 

Maybe you’re creating this post as you’re reading it.

Maybe you’re creating your whole reality as you’re perceiving it, but you aren’t aware of it because you’re doing it so convincingly.

Now, what if you could get inbetween the process of creation and perception? ?

 

[snowyowl]

1 minute ago, Inception said:

Maybe you’re creating your whole reality as you’re perceiving it, but you aren’t aware of it because you’re doing it so convincingly.

If I'm not perceiving something, does it still exist? According to the idealist philosophy, which you seem to be arguing for (unless I'm mistaken), only what I'm aware of exists. What I'm not aware of is nothing. 

[Inception]

@snowyowl

Does the back of your head exist?

[Inception]

@Shin

Where did you get the idea that you’re bald?

[snowyowl]

2 hours ago, Inception said:

@snowyowl

Does the back of your head exist?

Let's see. I have my immediate perception, and also my mind map of 'reality' (which is basically a collection of memories). The back of my head doesn't exist in my perception, there's just directions: front & back - not the front of my head, just the front (perception) & back (emptiness) - and both 'the back of my head' and 'the front of my head' are part of the map.  Why do I call my visual perception the front anyway?  What's it in front of? There's a belief of an invisible centre in my head (the subject), which is looking out at the external world. 

However, from the objective scientific pov, the light that's reflected from the external objects is going in the opposite direction, into the eyes and the mind. So it depends which side of the duality you're sitting on whether it's the back or the front  

Edited November 2, 2021 by snowyowl

[Shin]

2 hours ago, Inception said:

@snowyowl

Maybe you’re creating your memories as you’re accessing them. 

Maybe you’re creating this post as you’re reading it.

Maybe you’re creating your whole reality as you’re perceiving it, but you aren’t aware of it because you’re doing it so convincingly.

Now, what if you could get inbetween the process of creation and perception? ?

 

"Stay calm"

[Inception]

@snowyowl

Now, let me ask you: Have you ever seen your face before?

Really think about it…

[snowyowl]

@Inception  I've only seen it second hand, as an image in mirrors and photos etc. So my face is part of my mind map, although it's part of other people's perceptions. 

I keep trying to wean myself off using words like 'reality', 'imagination', even 'perception' which I'm using here is misleading because it's objectifying something which is just pure suchness. 

I'm not sure what you're getting at with this. 

[Inception]

@snowyowl

Me neither. But it’s fun to think about ?

[Mason Riggle]

@Inception if you are convinced you are imagining me, what's your reason for continuing to have a conversation with a figment of your imagination?

Do you see why it would be difficult for your imaginary friend, Mason, to trust that you believe yourself when you say these things?

It seems more like a hunch that you think is probably true, but you're not sure. 

 

OR

 

Similarly, what would be the point in agreeing with you.. in telling you that I agree.  By doing so, it would be admitting to myself that I'm talking to a figment of my own imagination, and I really think it's important to me that this figment of my imagination hears what I have to say about it.  It would only make sense to disagree with you.. to think you're not my own imagination.

 

Is this conversation really the 'best' thing I can imagine right now?

[Inception]

@Mason Riggle

2 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

If you are convinced you are imagining me, what's your reason for continuing to have a conversation with a figment of your imagination?

To keep my sanity, I guess ?

11 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Do you see why it would be difficult for your imaginary friend, Mason, to trust that you believe yourself when you say these things?

Wouldn’t you agree that Magritte’s painting of a pipe isn’t an actual pipe?

If so, wouldn’t you also agree that your post isn’t yourself?

Look at it from my POV: There’s no biological human named Mason in my direct experience, only your post. 

So I am literally imaging you as a human, sitting somewhere on Earth right now. That’s something I’m “putting on top” of my direct experience.

19 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Similarly, what would be the point in agreeing with you.. in telling you that I agree.  By doing so, it would be admitting to myself that I'm talking to a figment of my own imagination, and I really think it's important to me that this figment of my imagination hears what I have to say about it.  It would only make sense to disagree with you.. to think you're not my own imagination.

From your POV (which I’m imaging) you are imagining me. If you don’t believe me, then go ahead and try to touch me… you can’t.

28 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Is this conversation really the 'best' thing I can imagine right now?

Who knows, maybe you could imagine whatever you wanted, if you gave up this reality that is. But be careful; you might quickly find that you want it back once you’ve lost it…

[Mason Riggle]

12 minutes ago, Inception said:

 

@Inception are you imagining my point of view or am I?

[Inception]

@Mason Riggle 

7 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Are you imagining my point of view or am I?

I am.

[Mason Riggle]

@Inception weird, you're imagining that from my point of view, you've lost the plot. 

Cheers. 

[Inception]

@Mason Riggle

Oh boy is this twisted, I love it. Thanks for the laugh ?