Is A So-called 'enlightened Devil' Really Enlightened?

[Aware]

10 hours ago, Wormon Blatburm said:

Searching for enlightenment on here definitely won't help you if you really want the truth. This forum is mostly for mental masturbation

For people that hold a wrong idea of enlightenment I am a nightmare on the forum, and to those who are not holding a wrong idea about enlightenment I am insightful.

Wise and intelligent people are praised by the Truth seekers, but are hated among the sense servants.

Among the wise and intelligent, is as being with family, being with fools, is as being among enemies.

So may this forum be filled with wise and intelligent people, to advance and share. And let the fools see their own foolishness, thereby becoming wise and intelligent.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Motus

[WaveInTheOcean]

4 hours ago, Egoisego said:

can i ask you, why do you want the truth?

I don't know. I just want it.

The why-questions aren't really relevant.

[Bebop]

3 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

I don't know. I just want it.

The why-questions aren't really relevant.

I like that answer, its our child like nature to be curious about the truth

[kurt]

Its easy to read a million books and twist them all to suit how one sees the world.  Thatd what Leo has done, you can sense it in almost every video he releases these days, you can feel it palpably when a belief is defended with an excerpt taken out of context from a body of knowledge, a body of knowledge that has not even been researched properly but just taken as "evidence" to support his delusions.

I like you Leo, but you know nothing about enlightenment.  

Sorry : (

[kurt]

On 12/22/2016 at 2:45 PM, Wormon Blatburm said:

@WaveInTheOcean Ive just been on Leo's path of self learned meditation and self inquiry and experienced depersonalization and a worsening of my mental health. Which I'm stupid for doing, because Leo has a disclaimer that it's not his fault if it happens because you agree to take responsibility for your health.

Now I'm just taking some gems that Leos way had which is , among others - study - I haven't studied alot yet but I am interested in studying the enlightenment traditions and yoga and things like that.

I'm not going to tell you how to maneuver because I am not in a position yet to do that  . But finding a teacher is a good idea, instead of just listening to Leo like most people here.

Take what Leo says with a grain of salt, don't make this into a cult. Seperate the good things from the bad. 

This is true, and one of the reasons I am discrediting Leos advice to people.  Ive come with the logic behind the perennial philosophy theory that he is married to.  The Ken Wilber/Spirial Dynamics stuff he is also identified with, and trashed most of it with simple common sense.  If people are wise they will take what Gura says with a bucketfull of salt because he does not know anything about enlightenment.  Im glad you are one of the first (possibly) to see this.  Go to experts if you want to free yourself, dont listen to people who are not even enlightened, yet think they "have the path thats right for you" . 

Be sensible because this is your mental health youre messing with folks.

[WelcometoReality]

1 hour ago, kurt said:

This is true, and one of the reasons I am discrediting Leos advice to people.  Ive come with the logic behind the perennial philosophy theory that he is married to.  The Ken Wilber/Spirial Dynamics stuff he is also identified with, and trashed most of it with simple common sense.  If people are wise they will take what Gura says with a bucketfull of salt because he does not know anything about enlightenment.  Im glad you are one of the first (possibly) to see this.  Go to experts if you want to free yourself, dont listen to people who are not even enlightened, yet think they "have the path thats right for you" . 

Be sensible because this is your mental health youre messing with folks.

What is it in spiral dynamics and integral spirituality you think is false?

[kurt]

@WelcometoReality The question should be this:  What do you think is so right with it?  

The problem is, Ken Wilber has misrepresented most of these paths and therapies because when you start digging deeper into the theory you find that a lot of it doesnt correlate to the actual paths hes drawing the knowledge from.  When you start your own spiritual path, I assume you dont have one, you will begin to see how these integral ideas dont work because the defy common sense.  Wilber has tried to catalogue everything to make it fit onto one map, but hes twisted a lot of the information in order to fit it in.  Most spiritual paths dont agree with each other for very good reasons, this is why you have all these different schools of Buddhism and Hinduism, etc because of the fact they dont actually agree on the nature of reality.  Once you see that, you can see easily how you people are deluding themselves thinking they are getting somewhere with this collection of fancy ideas pulled from different sources.  All Leo has done has copied somebody elses work, by the looks of it its Ken Wilber.  If you can see the holes in Wilbers work then everything that comes after falls.  Its like dominoes stacked up, fish rots at the head first, once you adopt a integral system you have missed the point.  The main point of contention is that Aurobindo and Wilber both assume that we are somehow different people and that we need to evolve the spiritual path.  But people have had the same psychology since day one, it has not changed one bit, perhaps only cognitively, but no spiritual path addresses the cognitive aspect of people, its SPIRITUAL and psychological, it not cognitive nor are the spiritual paths even socially conditioned, they truths inherent in the paths are much deeper than social conditioning (if you take the time and bother to study them properly - which Wilber has not done, he has merely parroted Aurobindo and Clare Graves).  It sounds very appealing on paper but its a massive flop.  Do your homework guys before buying into everything Leo tells you, hes the proprietor of a youtube channel that started 3 years ago piggybacking off the work of other people, this is your health youre messing with.  The final straw for me is when hes bragging about "teaching non duality" in his latest video.  An unenlightened person "teaching" non duality?  Give me a break.  No ego is above the effects of 500k subscribers, half of which think youre some kind of prophet, who are on their first time in the scene and who has read that many books and had the 5meo experience.  This sort of thing creates very big egos indeed.  Now all of a sudden hes teaching non duality to the masses on the back of a few snorts of frog powder?  People are idiots if they want to put their trust in a person like this.  Complete idiots.

Edited December 24, 2016 by kurt

[WelcometoReality]

@kurt 

6 hours ago, kurt said:

The question should be this:  What do you think is so right with it?  

I see, so what do you think is so right with it?

6 hours ago, kurt said:

Clare Graves

In my opinion Clare Graves work fit in well with the development of consciousness at least in my own experience. Which theory do you find describe it best?

Edited December 24, 2016 by WelcometoReality

[Shin]

Why do we want to know the truth ?

Because we want to know our true self ?

 

 

[kurt]

1 hour ago, WelcometoReality said:

@kurt 

I see, so what do you think is so right with it?

In my opinion Clare Graves work fit in well with the development of consciousness at least in my own experience. Which theory do you find describe it best?

Enlightenment is not about development.  Consciousness does not develop.  What you mistake for "consciousness" is awareness deluded by ignorance.  The only thing you need to concentrate on is removing ignorance, then all your problems dissolve.  

[Aware]

@WaveInTheOcean @kurt @WelcometoReality

14 hours ago, kurt said:

I'm not going to tell you how to maneuver because I am not in a position yet to do that  . But finding a teacher is a good idea, instead of just listening to Leo like most people here.

You are on your way becoming the way WaveInTheOcean, well done!

14 hours ago, kurt said:

This is true, and one of the reasons I am discrediting Leos advice to people.  Ive come with the logic behind the perennial philosophy theory that he is married to.  The Ken Wilber/Spirial Dynamics stuff he is also identified with, and trashed most of it with simple common sense.  If people are wise they will take what Gura says with a bucketfull of salt because he does not know anything about enlightenment.  Im glad you are one of the first (possibly) to see this.  Go to experts if you want to free yourself, dont listen to people who are not even enlightened, yet think they "have the path thats right for you" . 

Be sensible because this is your mental health youre messing with folks.

For all readers: All teachings people follow, should always be contemplated by questioning the following: Does it contemplate my suffering? Or gives it something that I can run harder away from what seems to hurt me (resistance)?
Has the teaching an eightfold path that contemplates the purification of desires?

Please do not attack the teacher, but test out his given words and techniques, and judge upon: Did it led to insight, or did it not? Led it to get into the eye of the storm, which is uncomfortable, confronting but led to relief afterwards?
If it did not work after hard work, then take the insight that this did not lead to the end of your suffering, and move on, without hurting anyone.

A nice rule to apply: if someone is wiser, demonstrates it all the time, remain in touch, work hard in learning from him. IF someone is equally wise, work together to defeat the grip of thirst. If someone is clearly less wise then yourself, leave it be until you are far enough to guide from your heart.

12 hours ago, kurt said:

All Leo has done has copied somebody elses work, by the looks of it its Ken Wilber.  If you can see the holes in Wilbers work then everything that comes after falls.

To copy ones work people, is perfectly fine. However, live up to it, if not spoken from a state of living up to it, can be compared to a beautiful flower that just fails to smell like one.

12 hours ago, kurt said:

Do your homework guys before buying into everything Leo tells you, hes the proprietor of a youtube channel that started 3 years ago piggybacking off the work of other people, this is your health youre messing with.  The final straw for me is when hes bragging about "teaching non duality" in his latest video.  An unenlightened person "teaching" non duality?  Give me a break.  No ego is above the effects of 500k subscribers, half of which think youre some kind of prophet, who are on their first time in the scene and who has read that many books and had the 5meo experience.  This sort of thing creates very big egos indeed.  Now all of a sudden hes teaching non duality to the masses on the back of a few snorts of frog powder?  People are idiots if they want to put their trust in a person like this.  Complete idiots.

I too have criticized his view on enlightenment, and have corrected him many times until drops the concept.

I am sure, absolutely certain, that by these corrections and made corrections who also are hard on their way, he awakened to the point of being in discomfort. Realizing that he became wary of his ideas of enlightenment. He knows inside himself that this all what he does will tire out. 

However, I did not miss his good work either. He has been willing to bring people together, even though his guiding towards enlightenment rests on a psychedelic experience trip, and a day to day life to repeat this experience just this time without the psychedelics that therefor makes it self evident what is in accordance with that memory and what not (discerning right from wrong, thinking memory of a certain event is permanent), which of course rests of a wrong view (mushrooms and or psychedelics taking again as a remembrance, making it the guru is chasing ones own tail). Those wise and intelligent, apply the law of allowance, correct wrong views, just as one would correct other peoples views, from kindness, love, a compassionated mind. These corrections are for the better, and are actually happening as a result of his hard work to bring people together, together with those who accumulated wholesome deeds and can also join and learn from it. 

I see, and have seen in that comments change.  People are backing off from the wrong ideas about enlightenment more and more due to the corrections that are made by practitioners who are more educated in Dharma then them.
However, Leo's reputation is in the game and the realization of the corrections cannot be undone. There for, well done Leo, you have attained the vision of Dharma, that can't be undone.   You have heard the Dharma from someone who is educated, otherwise you don't become this wary. This, cannot be undone.
Therefor, you can mark my words, when one is awakened to the vision of Dharma, one will cycle, based on the idea that one is Awareness (hide and seek gameplay by upset), justifying ones doing and not doing, until this tires out completely, and becomes a non-returner. Where one will defend going back to the worldly activities as he used to. From here on, one will be warn out as well, and one day, one day one will become a teacher, teacher without being a teacher, preaching the Dharma from the seat of ones heart, completely rooted in self. 

Surely for his own advancement sake, he should indeed recognize those who truly know something about enlightenment, correct his own views, and apply them correctly as a teaching while practicing himself. Surely being rooted in Dharma, and having a community focused on self-improvement  brings great happiness.

I will again correct Leo out of compassion, to explain what self-actualized actually truly is about, and what it means so that it becomes clear for everyone.

Leo could also refrain from enlightenment ideas, teach self improvement as spirituality classes, that is preparation for deeper lessons as a guidance towards enlightenment. Oh, and its not that shamanic practices did not use any drugs of any kind, however this can provoke, and can be labeled as a spiritual lesson, it should not be mengled with the fact that it is about enlightenment. I debunk it when it comes to Leo, because I don't see that he has truly had an education in being a shaman that could guide others even if it is about spirituality and not the full path to enlightenment.
I say that the both the first stage or layer, and the second stage, that lead to the third stage, should well be established within this site forum.

Fase one: Improvement, getting what you want in all aspects and being helped to realize this, is the first layer (here you reside in Leo, and can and should teach in, because you are knowledgable about a wide range of topics when it comes to such improvements and could benefit many).

The second phase, are the Dharma teachings, getting into the eye of the storm, getting rid of ignorance, being with all that hurts, no longer running no more trying to escape from yourself. (First people must get through the first step, and realize that they are still running if they try getting what they want).

The last will be the result of the first too which is what the term self-actualized actually is about, being completely rooted in self, with a concentration on Awareness. This one can be compared with a solid big rock, that will not be taken by a big storm. He is completely free of mind. Which means that one is like a lotus leaf held in water, it remains untouched. He is one with Duty, that is in alliance with his True self, being one with True self, being free of any doubt. Rather he is a warrior, or a spiritual teacher, this one, is solid, in accordance with Awareness, this is what we call: Self-Actualized.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Motus

[WelcometoReality]

4 hours ago, kurt said:

Enlightenment is not about development.  Consciousness does not develop.  What you mistake for "consciousness" is awareness deluded by ignorance.  The only thing you need to concentrate on is removing ignorance, then all your problems dissolve.  

You are right. I misspoke, maybe human development is a better term.

There is a time to remove ignorance, but the next step is to see through all knowledge based outside your own experience. And any "problem" is only an illusion. 

 

[WelcometoReality]

2 hours ago, Motus said:

Please do not attack the teacher, but test out his given words and techniques, and judge upon: Did it led to insight, or did it not? Led it to get into the eye of the storm, which is uncomfortable, confronting but led to relief afterwards?
If it did not work after hard work, then take the insight that this did not lead to the end of your suffering, and move on, without hurting anyone.

Well put, I always like to emphasize that it is best not to BELIEVE what any teacher says. Always ground it in your own experience. Be open minded about what is being said, meaning don't make any conclusions about it being 'true' or 'untrue'.

[Egoisego]

19 hours ago, kurt said:

Its easy to read a million books and twist them all to suit how one sees the world.  Thatd what Leo has done, you can sense it in almost every video he releases these days, you can feel it palpably when a belief is defended with an excerpt taken out of context from a body of knowledge, a body of knowledge that has not even been researched properly but just taken as "evidence" to support his delusions.

I like you Leo, but you know nothing about enlightenment.  

Sorry : (

i am inclined to agree. i think he suffers from a inner need to prove hinself and be great . could also be a need to keep on going and making new materials, this could be done and still getting enlightened i think, so don't think it's that. He could be enlightened/strive and still make videos about how you get the most girls/boys/hippos to want you, or how you crush other people. all this while he was enlightened/spoke about it.

 

He could also be faking it all, some kind of narcissist, he has got a lot more genuine lately, have been following on and off for maybe 2 years, and he was not genuine 2 years ago.

 

this is all my story, and and my ego is sorry guys, because i know how much you CRAVE a guru.

 

 

as someone said above. this concept of development into deeeeeeeeeeeper enlightenment is totally wrong and it is a very basic faulty method to use if you ever want this concept enlightenment to happen with you.

 

what you can do is to live now.

 

sorry trashy grammar

Edited December 25, 2016 by Egoisego

[kurt]

3 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

You are right. I misspoke, maybe human development is a better term.

There is a time to remove ignorance, but the next step is to see through all knowledge based outside your own experience. And any "problem" is only an illusion. 

 

Is there really such a thing as human development, or is it a fantasy?  I've never met one psychologically developed person in my life.  You try to develop the person for years and its still there nagging i want, i want, i want, i want... why not just wake up and be done with it?  End of story?  In fact, if you wake up you know there is nothing there to develop, no people, no others, no world, no human race, nothing, just you deluded by your own body and mind billions of times over.  That's enlightenment, there is no development, there is only collecting knowledge about crap that only meant something to you when you thought you were stuck in a world full of others and survival and getting what you want mattered.  I don't think people actually really understand what enlightenment really is, because if they did they would know that there is no need to develop the person.  People would not be seeking the divine if they were able to get what they wanted in the world, it does not work, every gain you make there is an equal loss, you cant win and you cant loose, its an eternally frustrating zero sum game DESIGNED to support you finding your true self, its not here to give us what we want.  Just be who you are God dammit, you are beautiful as you are already, thats the damn point, to stop chasing after shit you never needed!  This Zen Devilry thing is a complete fantasy, its looking at life through the messed up lens of deficiency, enlightened people dont seek perfection, they are perfection.

Edited December 25, 2016 by kurt

[kurt]

1 hour ago, Egoisego said:

i am inclined to agree. i think he suffers from a inner need to prove hinself and be great . could also be a need to keep on going and making new materials, this could be done and still getting enlightened i think, so don't think it's that. He could be enlightened/strive and still make videos about how you get the most girls/boys/hippos to want you, or how you crush other people. all this while he was enlightened/spoke about it.

 

He could also be faking it all, some kind of narcissist, he has got a lot more genuine lately, have been following on and off for maybe 2 years, and he was not genuine 2 years ago.

 

this is all my story, and and my ego is sorry guys, because i know how much you CRAVE a guru.

 

 

as someone said above. this concept of development into deeeeeeeeeeeper enlightenment is totally wrong and it is a very basic faulty method to use if you ever want this concept enlightenment to happen with you.

 

what you can do is to live now.

 

sorry trashy grammar

A couple of points, "Guru" means remover of ignorance.  If you have a genuine enlightenment teaching and dont mess with it by throwing in a mish mash of dualistic processes then you can become your own "guru" and remove the thorn from your own eye.  Thats part of enlightenment, making you not dependent on a teacher in any way shape or form.

Secondly, youre correct, there are no levels to enlightenment, what a silly concept.  That is nothing but a spiritual status game.  There are no awakenings, stirrings, realizations, insights, there is only a process of the mind undoing its own ignorance until one day the seeking stops and you rest in complete understanding.  After all the psychological work (which needs to take place BEFORE realization happens, because enlightenment proper can only take place in a very specifically cultured mind, otherwise its not enlightenment, its just a glimpse) thats all that is left and enlightenment is, understanding that happens in the intellect - oh, I am this, I knew that all along.  Then all you do is stop falling into the traps again, its too simple to mess up, yet the mind makes it into something so complicated and mysterious, mystical.  Load of nonsense.  Its very very simple, so simple that it takes years to realize that it was there under your nose all that time.  There is absolutely nothing to do, thats the point, there never was anything to do, anything to master, all mastery is based on this assumption that we need to do something in order to become complete.  These desires go away if enlightenment is what youre after.  

Edited December 25, 2016 by kurt

[kurt]

3 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Well put, I always like to emphasize that it is best not to BELIEVE what any teacher says. Always ground it in your own experience. Be open minded about what is being said, meaning don't make any conclusions about it being 'true' or 'untrue'.

Dont believe what I say, just think about this - "spirituality" is a correction.  Thats ALL it is.  When the job is done, when you understand who you are, and there is no chance of falling back into delusion, then you leave and walk away.  You throw away the books, the CD's, the DVDs and you cancel your subscriptions.  You return to life as you were before MINUS the ignorance that compelled you to become a spiritual seeker in the first place .  

You dont make a lifestyle out of spirituality, that is just another identity, and a false one.

Think about it.  This is what this path is about. Its not about non existent "growth".

[WelcometoReality]

On 2016-12-25 at 2:20 AM, kurt said:

Is there really such a thing as human development, or is it a fantasy?  I've never met one psychologically developed person in my life.  You try to develop the person for years and its still there nagging i want, i want, i want, i want... why not just wake up and be done with it?  End of story?  In fact, if you wake up you know there is nothing there to develop, no people, no others, no world, no human race, nothing, just you deluded by your own body and mind billions of times over.  That's enlightenment, there is no development, there is only collecting knowledge about crap that only meant something to you when you thought you were stuck in a world full of others and survival and getting what you want mattered.  I don't think people actually really understand what enlightenment really is, because if they did they would know that there is no need to develop the person.  People would not be seeking the divine if they were able to get what they wanted in the world, it does not work, every gain you make there is an equal loss, you cant win and you cant loose, its an eternally frustrating zero sum game DESIGNED to support you finding your true self, its not here to give us what we want.  Just be who you are God dammit, you are beautiful as you are already, thats the damn point, to stop chasing after shit you never needed!  This Zen Devilry thing is a complete fantasy, its looking at life through the messed up lens of deficiency, enlightened people dont seek perfection, they are perfection.

You are talking about self development. And I agree with what your saying but that is not what I am talking about, I guess you would call it level of awareness.

On 2016-12-25 at 3:51 AM, kurt said:

Dont believe what I say, just think about this - "spirituality" is a correction.  Thats ALL it is.  When the job is done, when you understand who you are, and there is no chance of falling back into delusion, then you leave and walk away.  You throw away the books, the CD's, the DVDs and you cancel your subscriptions.  You return to life as you were before MINUS the ignorance that compelled you to become a spiritual seeker in the first place .  

You dont make a lifestyle out of spirituality, that is just another identity, and a false one.

Think about it.  This is what this path is about. Its not about non existent "growth".

I agree with this except for the assumptions you seem to be making about me.

[WaveInTheOcean]

@Egoisego

@kurt

and others.

 

[robertm]

On 12/21/2016 at 0:42 PM, hundreth said:

Why do millions believe in simplistic newspaper astrology horoscopes? They will argue that they directly FEEL these horoscopes and astrological charts are correct. Confirmation bias can also kick in when meditating, or experiencing an altered state of consciousness brought on by an entheogen

They feel connected because it confirms their believes of not being in charge of their lives but some overpower full being that holds all the strings. Life becomes easier when you are not in charge. You can't be blamed for your mistakes as it is divine intervention.  Hopefully million could frequent the new wave of Internet based web services offering a free horoscope without having to buy jack shxt one of the better ones is http://www.astrosofa.com As they are dynamic and data base driven without the need to be nice.

Understanding our own personality helps you to discover your purpose in life, helps to bring out our suppressed desires and wishes and also we learn our strengths and weaknesses. Most often we confuse on with another ;(