Cheap tendencies

[Lyubov]

4 minutes ago, Jacob Morres said:

@Lyubov regarding that, you could say many men need to go through a lot of emotional labor into becoming an attractive man. That definitely balances the scale by far

Women in general won’t give a shit about what personal work you’ve done in order to sleep with them. This doesn’t balance anything. It reeks with entitlement. You are the man. You are expected to be your best, it’s not a matter of you being your best and getting something in return for it. 

[Preety_India]

2 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

Women in general won’t give a shit about what personal work you’ve done in order to sleep with them. 

This is not true in my personal experience. A woman has to be low conscious if she just doesn't look for anything in a man in terms of values. 

I think many many women (you can see the women on this forum alone), that they look for important values in a man. 

They do give a fuck about what men do in terms of personal work. 

 

[Preety_India]

21 minutes ago, zazen said:

Would you rather have men be stronger and embody positive masculinity and social skills ensuring better quality men around for women or rather them not learn social skills (which Leo's latest video is trying to teach and help men with) and grow stronger.

Nothing against trying to build skills. But dismissing women's perspectives is not exactly beneficial to women either if the goal is to make women happy. Neither is it a lose lose game if you listen to women. Integrating the feminine experience and viewpoint doesn't exactly degrade a man's masculinity, rather it enriches it. 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Preety_India

[TheAlchemist]

34 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

You're writing this post like something is wrong with me. 

When you say that, it makes me feel distressed and frustrated because I have a need for connection and communion. If you are willing, you could point out what specifically made you interpret it that way, and how that made you feel, and what you would suggest to make it more constructive. 

I'm not yet very skillful at going about this process online just with text, face to face it can be very powerful and constructive, bringing about peace and mutual understanding. What I'm doing is trying to apply nonviolent communication (NVC) in an attempt to bring about more constructive conversations that move towards more love and understanding instead of division and conflict. But regardless, it seems best to let it go for now since it seems to be causing more distress.

Edited November 12, 2021 by TheAlchemist

[Preety_India]

5 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

that's why Leo mentioned it in the first place.

Can I know where he mentioned this?I haven't been super updated with his latest stuff

 

[zazen]

9 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

This is not true in my personal experience. A woman has to be low conscious if she just doesn't look for anything in a man in terms of values. 

I think many many women (you can see the women on this forum alone), that they look for important values in a man. 

They do give a fuck about what men do in terms of personal work. 

 

Low quality women wait at the finish line for the winner. High quality women see potential in their man and help him reach that winner position. A man will far more appreciate a women who was along with him for the ride than the one who met him at his peak as the winner. 

 

Part of personal work is developing oneself and to do this having open discussion and getting to truth. Then when men do this ie Leo's comments or video on pick up it's deemed toxic by women. 

 

Men speak more directly, women indirectly in order to not offend. Evolutionarily women needed the approval of the social group to ensure their survival more so than men, they relied on social ties rather than their own muscular strength that men possessed to survive in the wild.  Women are more socially savvy for this reason. Men are in general more logical and women emotional. When you see Leo giving advice to men it comes across 'toxic' or 'hurtful' when in reality it could be just helpful and what men need to hear to solve their problems. But seeing how men talk hurts women's sensibilities and triggers an emotional response, hence men need men spaces to talk or what is referred to as 'locker room talk' the way they do. We can't place everything under the banner of misogynistic or distasteful. It is a testament to mans empathy and self -restraint that he doesn't speak as freely around women as women do around men. Men forego some of their natural way of being to make women comfortable.

 

Women in their sensitivity appear to be more empathetic and they are, however mans relative insensitivity allows him to be more empathetic in the sense that when you're not easy to offend, you're better equipped to cater to others, when you're self consumed with emotion this is harder to do.  Men and more so women trust their emotions and act on their emotions almost entirely. This can lead to failing to question, analyse, check and hold their emotions to account. For an emotional person if it feels right then it is right, and this person does not consider that perhaps although some things feel good to hear or believe, they may be logically unsound, false, outright incorrect or otherwise verifiably false.

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by zazen

[Lyubov]

6 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

This is not true in my personal experience. A woman has to be low conscious if she just doesn't look for anything in a man in terms of values. 

I think many many women (you can see the women on this forum alone), that they look for important values in a man. 

They do give a fuck about what men do in terms of personal work. 

 

I do agree with you. My post could of been misinterpreted cause I reduced a lot in it. I don’t mean women won’t appreciate the work you do on yourself or the fruits that are grown on the tree from it. In a relationship women will appreciate it when a man puts effort into a relationship, loses that beer belly like he promised, makes an effort to clean, etc. What I meant more is a man getting himself to a place where he is presentable and just even able to get a woman out on a date and seem attractive. Most women do not care about the emotional work a man has done just to be able to attract a woman or be attractive enough for her to go out on a few dates with him. It’s basically a baseline prerequisite like knowing how to shower and dress yourself in clean clothes. 

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, zazen said:

Low quality women wait at the finish line for the winner. High quality women see potential in their man and help him reach that winner position. A man will far more appreciate a women who was along with him for the ride than the one who met him at his peak as the winner. 

I understand what you're trying to say but my point wasn't about looking for quality in a man at his peak point in life and discarding then at their lowest. 

I have myself dated broke guys seeing the potential in them. You're contradicting yourself. "seeing potential" is only possible if a woman desires good things to come about, a healthy relationship I mean. 

But to blatantly say that women just don't give a shit about what men do in terms of personal growth is a way of saying that women don't have brains or women don't care about values, it can almost come across as dehumanizing and devaluing women to nothing. 

Any woman with an iota of wisdom is not going to do that. Most women who have bad experiences with mate selection usually outgrow it at some point. 

So to paint this picture that women don't use judgement or reasoning in deciding a partner is kinda blatantly disregarding how women truly feel and think. 

 

 

[something_else]

It's an unfortunate reality that there are way more men here than women. The advice is always gonna be tailored towards men no matter what. Finding a way to help men become stronger and better with women without being dehumanising towards women is a really difficult task, but it's extremely important advice given the percentage of incel-type men is skyrocketing.

They can't even begin to think about deep and loving connection type advice that women find acceptable because they don't even have basic attraction or socialising down

I've tried to avoid the pickup-type talk and stick to referring to it more as learning to socialise which I think is a better way to frame it that is less toxic

Another point is that many women essentially dehumanise unattractive guys as well. Many are just trying to better themselves but you'll happily label them as creeps and weirdos for their efforts and not give it a 2nd thought. Which I think is actually totally fine. But it's just to point out that the dehumanisation goes both ways and almost every human being regardless of gender will do this to other human beings in some way

[Preety_India]

6 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

I do agree with you. My post could of been misinterpreted cause I reduced a lot in it. I don’t mean women won’t appreciate the work you do on yourself or the fruits that are grown on the tree from it. In a relationship women will appreciate it when a man puts effort into a relationship, loses that beer belly like he promised, makes an effort to clean, etc. What I meant more is a man getting himself to a place where he is presentable and just even able to get a woman out on a date and seem attractive. Most women do not care about the emotional work a man has done just to be able to attract a woman or be attractive enough for her to go out on a few dates with him. It’s basically a baseline prerequisite like knowing how to shower and dress yourself in clean clothes. 

This depends on how you communicate yourself to a woman. If you're able to share your experiences with a woman and your struggles, I'm sure she will appreciate it. 

 

Maybe have a positive mindset while approaching women. We tend to mirror the biases we already hold, in other words we're always looking for confirmation bias. But it doesn't always have to be this way. 

Also a few women don't define all women 

 

[Etherial Cat]

@zazen 

56 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

@Etherial Cat @Preety_India @Tangerinedream

Would you rather have men be stronger and embody positive masculinity and social skills ensuring better quality men around for women or rather them not learn social skills (which Leo's latest video is trying to teach and help men with) and grow stronger. The reason for women needing to step into masculine traits at the expense of their femininity which comes more natural to them is because of weaker men in society (various factors for this, modern comfort, food lifestyle etc). This creates insecurity in women that if the men don't take up their positions to ensure a secure environment they'll have to. Hence the unease and women starting to dislike men for letting themselves go in the modern day. Men need to be allowed to discuss and improve, for women's sake and for societies sake and not be labelled toxic or misogynistic when they do. Of course it exists, but when most points are labelled with that, it stops discussion and growth. 

 

The problem is that Game is used an umbrella word. So it's got everything in it: what I see as principles part of a healthy masculine attraction development line and pure garbage.

I will never blame men for making themselves attractive and learning the "white magic" of Game. I wrote posts on the subject in the past. So strong, positive masculinity with social skills is OBVIOUSLY encouraged. But this shouldn't necessarily be named "Game", as "Game" has heavy connotation with PUA culture. 

Though, the behavior, technics and usage I see called as Game in here isn't always that. There is a lot of toxic shit going actually going against masculine improvement. It is this aspect of Game I abhorre and complain about.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Etherial Cat

[Leo Gura]

Locking this because it's not leading anywhere positive.