How not to Fight / Resist an Ego Death Experience?

[Muhammad Jawad]

16 hours ago, Nahm said:

Realize they aren’t yours. Understand what conjecture is. Stop adding more. Daily meditation & expression for years, maybe decades, and then take psychedelics.

Right. Thanks

16 hours ago, Fearless_Bum said:

there's is no real you ?.

hmmm.

16 hours ago, Fearless_Bum said:

@Breakingthewall you are only fueling their conditionings and joining them in their self flagellation and masochistic practices which they call "spiritual". 

You want to talk of how frightening and scary infinity is because you feed on it lol and you don't want to admit it. You also want someone to tell you all the hard work you gotta do and the years it's gonna take because that means you will still be there doing all your hard work. Kinda like an unhealthy guy saying yea I got years to improve myself, eventually I'll be fit. 

I will not entertain any of that bs, mind you there are legitimate teachers who will play along with this game and that's fine, that's their method of destroying you. 

I'm not trying to show how smart I am, fucking hilarious dude, I'm trying to convey actually that this is not something that can ever be known, you're probably smarter than me for all I know.

The OP is going through a tough time and rather than piling more conditions and beliefs about God, infinity, and all that other nonsense I will be straightforward and say nope nothing is there and will be there, no Self, nothing. If you want help through tough times build meaningful relationships, see a psychologist, have a support network, live life as you are now, vent, journal, etc. 

Good Point.

BTW How do psychonauts know the difference between temporary ego death & Permanent Physical death?

15 hours ago, Fearless_Bum said:

no worries you didn't say anything mean I understand. 

I'm only saying in this thread that the quest for ego death is just a game you're playing. 

You talk talk talk, then take a psychedelic and stay quiet, then you tell your friends about it and it becomes "my experience". 

It's just a game you're playing. And I'm not saying I'm better or that I understand anything at all. 

Be careful not to take anything I say personally, i really am not intending to attack you or anyone, I'm just being honest with you, and you of course are culture/society. 

On many points, I can agree with you.  

[Muhammad Jawad]

14 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

I think what happens with you is perfectly normal.  The ego does not want to die and it will do everything in its power to stay alive.  It will fight tooth and nail against death.  Stop trying to fight that and simply understand that the purpose of the ego is to exist.  But realize it is imaginary. Understanding  is key.  Now relax and let the chips fall where they may.  There will come a time one day, be it via meditation, self inquiry, or psychedelics, where ego death will be seamless.  You will be thrust into Infinity as if instantaneously.  And you will be there.. in God Consciousness.  Ego death will not even have seemed to occur because - in fact it didn't- it is imaginary.   So there will be no bad trip or struggling against death.

Continue on, it sounds like you are on the right path.  Simply roll with what is.

Amazing. Thanks a lot :-)

[axiom]

Not being scared of death in the first place of course helps... but it can take many decades of meditative practice, or severe trauma, to reach that level of consciousness. Noone asks for severe trauma of course, but it has enormous capacity to raise one's baseline level of consciousness (easily as well as decades of meditation imo) when / if the lessons become well integrated.

That said... in terms of psychedelics, you can get pretty practical about ego death by considering your substance and dosage relative to your baseline level of consciousness.

The dosage of mushrooms required to instantiate ego death may often lead to feelings of madness and terror later in the trip. This is pretty normal for mushrooms in particular... they speak to you in an alien language.

You can pretty much sidestep any of the fighting and terror on the come-up by taking a large enough dose. The come-down is another matter... It might be considered the price of entry. There isn't really any way around feeling some level of shock, madness and disorientation when you remember that you're a human being. This is why trip sitters on mushrooms are a good idea.

Edited October 30, 2021 by axiom

[Nahm]

5 hours ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

Right. Thanks

Your welcome. Has it been noticed yet there aren’t two of you (you & the ego), that there is only the thoughts about there being two of you? Has “the one” (ego) these thoughts on this thread are about ever been seen or heard? Can it be understood meditation is a break from this thought activity, or thought story, narration, about how there’s “two of you”? 

Can it also be recognized ‘not fighting & resisting’ is the fighting and resisting, as in, is the very thought activity, which is the story, that there even is or could be, ‘this other you’ or ‘other thing’ which… currently “you” ‘are fighting’… and thus are asking “how to not fight”?

Can it be humbly recognized “the ego” isn’t even your concept so to speak, as in, this thought story didn’t even originate from you. Is it readily recognized, it was learned? Similarly, terror, scared, death, states of consciousness, etc. Is it acknowledged honestly this was all learned (conjecture)?

[Guest EmptyVase]

On 28.10.2021 at 2:19 PM, Muhammad Jawad said:

Ok, I want to experience Ego Death but whenever I reach the point where I am right on the edge of ego death.

What do you mean by the edge of ego death?

On 28.10.2021 at 2:19 PM, Muhammad Jawad said:

I get too terrified and scared of death and it feels like The World & My Egoic Existence is Vanishing Permanently in front of my eyes. And I will never be able to get to my normal state of consciousness ever.

Always 'happens to me' when self-referential thoughts come back after an intense trip. 

Up until now, the fear was nothing but thoughts, and I was able to function perfectly normal, 'enhanced', even. Don't know if that's gonna change, or, if anything's gonna change at all, 'after awakening'.

[Fearless_Bum]

13 hours ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

BTW How do psychonauts know the difference between temporary ego death & Permanent Physical death?

 

@Muhammad Jawad I don't know the answer to that question honestly and I personally wouldn't entertain it, but by all means seek the answer if you want. 

[Muhammad Jawad]

18 hours ago, axiom said:

Not being scared of death in the first place of course helps

I was not scared of my death because these are the moments that make you believe that you can never die. I knew that I am not dying but I am waking from a dream. I was scared of diminishing of dream permanently and losing everything permanently. But you are right if in the first place if we do not have any fear of losing anything deeply then maybe we can manage through it.

18 hours ago, axiom said:

The dosage of mushrooms required to instantiate ego death may often lead to feelings of madness and terror later in the trip. This is pretty normal for mushrooms in particular... they speak to you in an alien language.

Exactly, It becomes a feeling of madness.

18 hours ago, axiom said:

You can pretty much sidestep any of the fighting and terror on the come-up by taking a large enough dose. The come-down is another matter... It might be considered the price of entry. There isn't really any way around feeling some level of shock, madness and disorientation when you remember that you're a human being. This is why trip sitters on mushrooms are a good idea.

So according to you, I should take a much higher dose?

[Muhammad Jawad]

17 hours ago, Nahm said:

Your welcome. Has it been noticed yet there aren’t two of you (you & the ego), that there is only the thoughts about there being two of you?

Yes, I have noticed, realized, and know that I am not two (me & the ego). Yes, these are just thoughts.

There is only One and there are thoughts in it which create the illusion of the ego due to conditioning.

17 hours ago, Nahm said:

Has “the one” (ego) these thoughts on this thread are about ever been seen or heard?

Sorry, what do you mean by this?

17 hours ago, Nahm said:

Can it be understood meditation is a break from this thought activity, or thought story, narration, about how there’s “two of you”? 

Yes, true.

17 hours ago, Nahm said:

Can it also be recognized ‘not fighting & resisting’ is the fighting and resisting, as in, is the very thought activity, which is the story, that there even is or could be, ‘this other you’ or ‘other thing’ which… currently “you” ‘are fighting’… and thus are asking “how to not fight”?

hmmm. That's true.

17 hours ago, Nahm said:

Can it be humbly recognized “the ego” isn’t even your concept so to speak, as in, this thought story didn’t even originate from you. Is it readily recognized, it was learned? Similarly, terror, scared, death, states of consciousness, etc. Is it acknowledged honestly this was all learned (conjecture)?

Yes, True.

 

Thanks a lot 

[Muhammad Jawad]

17 hours ago, EmptyVase said:

What do you mean by the edge of ego death?

The moment when I see/realize that everything was just a dream and now this dream is going to end permanently.

[Guest EmptyVase]

@Muhammad Jawad

How did you know that you were right on the edge, and that this dream will end any second?

[axiom]

8 hours ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

So according to you, I should take a much higher dose?

It sounds like it... but hard to say. There are variables to consider.

So for example, as a 6ft / 185cm male with a very traumatic past (somewhat well integrated these days) who weighs 168 lbs / 76.2 kilos, I experienced profound ego death, truly infinite love (an absolutely terrifying and humbling but also deeply healing experience) and the mandala of "heaven" by taking approx 5.5 grams of cracker-dry Golden Teacher mushrooms on an empty stomach, wearing a blindfold and listening to the ICL psilocybin playlist. I remember distinctly approaching it from the outset with a sort of "take me, I'm ready" mindset. That might have helped a bit too.

I met millions of other souls... we were all part of the mandala. I became fused with all of them... I became the mandala. I also saw how distinct souls and humans are imagined / created in the mind of God.

On leaving that place - it really felt like my true home - I was left with a sense of profound sadness. In our relative and finite form we have been specifically designed to forget (i.e. infinity cannot be circumscribed by the finite). It was like saying goodbye to my true family... the source of all love, infinite encouragement and compassion... knowing that amnesia will kick in because I'm not supposed to remember. And it has. I only remember scant details. I remember the feelings more than anything else. But I also know that that place is always there, waiting.

I definitely experienced the madness and disorientation on the return. Actually I was deeply shocked to remember that I was a human being as I had been away for what felt like thousands of years. It took a while to figure out how to use my arms and legs etc as I had forgotten what they were.

Hope that helps.

Edited October 31, 2021 by axiom

[Muhammad Jawad]

6 hours ago, EmptyVase said:

How did you know that you were right on the edge, and that this dream will end any second?

I could feel it deeply that I am holding to this dream reality forcefully and if will not react/hold it will diminish permanently and I will lose everyone and everything. 

[Muhammad Jawad]

2 hours ago, axiom said:

It sounds like it... but hard to say. There are variables to consider.

Right

2 hours ago, axiom said:

So for example, as a 6ft / 185cm male with a very traumatic past (somewhat well integrated these days) who weighs 168 lbs / 76.2 kilos, I experienced profound ego death, truly infinite love (an absolutely terrifying and humbling but also deeply healing experience) and the mandala of "heaven" by taking approx 5.5 grams of cracker-dry Golden Teacher mushrooms on an empty stomach, wearing a blindfold and listening to the ICL psilocybin playlist. I remember distinctly approaching it from the outset with a sort of "take me, I'm ready" mindset. That might have helped a bit too.

hmmmm

2 hours ago, axiom said:

I met millions of other souls... we were all part of the mandala. I became fused with all of them... I became the mandala. I also saw how distinct souls and humans are imagined / created in the mind of God.

Amazing.

2 hours ago, axiom said:

On leaving that place - it really felt like my true home - I was left with a sense of profound sadness. In our relative and finite form we have been specifically designed to forget (i.e. infinity cannot be circumscribed by the finite). It was like saying goodbye to my true family... the source of all love, infinite encouragement and compassion... knowing that amnesia will kick in because I'm not supposed to remember. And it has. I only remember scant details. I remember the feelings more than anything else. But I also know that that place is always there, waiting.

Wao

2 hours ago, axiom said:

I definitely experienced the madness and disorientation on the return.

What kind of madness?

2 hours ago, axiom said:

Actually I was deeply shocked to remember that I was a human being

You really forgot that you were a human being?

2 hours ago, axiom said:

I had been away for what felt like thousands of years.

Did you really feel that you were away from this world for thousands of years?

2 hours ago, axiom said:

It took a while to figure out how to use my arms and legs etc as I had forgotten what they were.

Like it took you days to figure out how to use your body parts?

 

Do you ever think or feel that in that trip you actually died physically in that plane of existence?

And you recreated your reality after thousands of years or you came back to alternate reality after thousands of years? 

[Guest EmptyVase]

23 minutes ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

I could feel it deeply that I am holding to this dream reality forcefully

This sounds actual.

24 minutes ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

and if will not react/hold it will diminish permanently and I will lose everyone and everything. 

This sounds like an assumption.

[Guest EmptyVase]

@Muhammad Jawad

Perhaps you could practice relaxing and letting go projections onto reality? For letting go projections onto reality, you could utilize the emotional scale and express how projections onto reality, such as the above, feel. If it feels terrible, it can't be the whole truth or the full picture. That feeling tells ya that there's more to it, and that you might inspect and express it.

Get that relaxation momentum going and learn to relax into being. This will make your trips sooo much smoother and more joyful.

[axiom]

@Muhammad Jawad

Yes, I completely forgot I was a human. I mean, it’s very hard to describe this stuff. But essentially I discovered that I was never really a human to begin with. 

Ego death = complete destruction of your reality and you in that reality. So yeah, I was gone. I was something else entirely. I wasn’t even “I”.

Yes, it literally felt like thousands of years… but this is difficult to answer. Time in the infinite realm and time in the relative realm work very differently. There isn’t really any linear time in the infinite realm. It’s more like the y axis of the present moment is extended to infinity.

It didn’t take me days to recover use of my arms and legs etc. It took probably a couple of hours (of relative time) to fully regain control, although I was able to wobble around on jelly legs with some level of control after 20 minutes or so. 

My legs were actually moving without any conscious input whatsoever from me for a while. When I came around I was pacing in the corner of the room. At that point I was watching my human body doing it’s thing, but as a passive observer - not consciously connected to the body at all. 

As far as recreating reality on my return, there were actually three distinct realities it felt like I could have returned to. In one, I was in a hospital bed having tried to commit suicide (this never happened) after a very traumatic breakup (this did happen) ten years ago. In that reality, I was coming around from a coma and a family member was holding my hand. It felt real, but I was very disorientated at this point.

As I lay in the hospital bed, other potential realities presented themselves. Through all of the different realities, the one consistency was that *someone* was holding my hand. I kept asking who was holding my hand as it kept changing every five minutes or so.

Ultimately the reality I came back to was this one. The one where I’m now typing this  Maybe I could have ended up somewhere else. I don’t really know. I can’t pinpoint any moment of choosing.

Edited October 31, 2021 by axiom

[Muhammad Jawad]

14 hours ago, EmptyVase said:

This sounds like an assumption.

Yes, That was my assumption but when I was in a panic I couldn't think like that.

14 hours ago, EmptyVase said:

Perhaps you could practice relaxing and letting go projections onto reality?

Right. Ok

14 hours ago, EmptyVase said:

emotional scale

Which emotional scale?

14 hours ago, EmptyVase said:

express how projections onto reality, such as the above, feel. If it feels terrible, it can't be the whole truth or the full picture. That feeling tells ya that there's more to it, and that you might inspect and express it.

How?

[Muhammad Jawad]

10 hours ago, axiom said:

Yes, I completely forgot I was a human. I mean, it’s very hard to describe this stuff. But essentially I discovered that I was never really a human to begin with.

hmmm. Right

10 hours ago, axiom said:

Ego death = complete destruction of your reality and you in that reality. So yeah, I was gone. I was something else entirely. I wasn’t even “I”.

You mean everything which was not real, just gone.

10 hours ago, axiom said:

Yes, it literally felt like thousands of years… but this is difficult to answer.

In those years did you ever miss your worldly life?

10 hours ago, axiom said:

It didn’t take me days to recover use of my arms and legs etc. It took probably a couple of hours (of relative time) to fully regain control, although I was able to wobble around on jelly legs with some level of control after 20 minutes or so. 

Right

10 hours ago, axiom said:

My legs were actually moving without any conscious input whatsoever from me for a while. When I came around I was pacing in the corner of the room. At that point I was watching my human body doing it’s thing, but as a passive observer - not consciously connected to the body at all.

hmmm.

10 hours ago, axiom said:

As far as recreating reality on my return, there were actually three distinct realities it felt like I could have returned to. In one, I was in a hospital bed having tried to commit suicide (this never happened) after a very traumatic breakup (this did happen) ten years ago. In that reality, I was coming around from a coma and a family member was holding my hand. It felt real, but I was very disorientated at this point.

It could have been too shocking when you faced that reality.

10 hours ago, axiom said:

Ultimately the reality I came back to was this one. The one where I’m now typing this  Maybe I could have ended up somewhere else. I don’t really know. I can’t pinpoint any moment of choosing.

Welcome Back. Is this the same reality which you left? 

[axiom]

I will never know if I came back to the same reality. It feels like I did, but I think it would feel that way whichever reality I returned to.

No, I didn’t miss human life while I was gone. While I was there, I had no memory of ever being human. No memory of Earth, no memory of people. At least, as far as I can remember..!

Edited November 1, 2021 by axiom

[Guest EmptyVase]

2 hours ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

Which emotional scale?

This one.

2 hours ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

How?

If you want to conceptualize it into a process:

0) Awareness.

1) Be aware of how you feel about a certain topic.

2) Inspect and express what you think about that topic. Notice that expression by itself makes you feel slightly better.

Alternative 1) Be aware of your thoughts about a certain topic.
Alternative 2) Inspect and express how those thoughts feel. Notice that expression by itself makes you feel slightly better.

3) Choose thoughts, which feel better to you - your behavior changes accordingly (feel free to utilize the emotional scale by Abraham Hicks for this, but you can also "freestyle" your way in choosing thoughts/perspectives which feel better).

4) Repeat. Always one thought at a time. Step by step, feeling better, and better, and better - even if that sometimes means facing challenging emotions, the general trend is going up the emotional scale.

Expression, emptying out, being fueled with source, feeling good.