Noticing the Illusion and Reacting to It

[Nahm]

@AlphaAbundance

It’s entirely conjecture and thus inherently misleading. It’s basically playing enlightened, not based in direct experience. Also entirely innocent.  This is actually the good news. Connect dots brother. Much love. 

[PepperBlossoms]

@Nahm @AlphaAbundance (I'm trying to see Nahm's view and Alpha's view and came up with this:) Everything is conjecture.  We will never have absolute proof or disproof for anything - hence then one could just stop all discussions, questioning, research, etc. as nothing can ever be fully known.

So I can see that to say that there are infinite states of consciousness/enlightenment - that there may not be proof or disproof but it is interesting to create models/theories/observations anyway... but yet we may stay stuck in the "mind matrix" but can have the illusion of varying degrees of liberation from it.

We can imagine that consciousness could go on for infinity but we can't ever verify that it does.

[Nahm]

@PepperBlossoms

We can’t, but you can, everything isn’t conjecture, nothing is already known, and liberation is the stark opposite of varying degrees in the sense that’s a thought, like everything. The only point in mentioning is the end of the undesirable rollercoaster. 

[PepperBlossoms]

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

@PepperBlossoms

We can’t, but you can, everything isn’t conjecture, nothing is already known, and liberation is the stark opposite of varying degrees in the sense that’s a thought, like everything. The only point in mentioning is the end of the undesirable rollercoaster. 

@Nahm Oh interesting.  Thanks.

What do you mean by end of undesirable rollercoaster (to stop searching for knowledge as it is nothing)?  What do you mean by liberation is the stark opposite?

[Nahm]

37 minutes ago, PepperBlossoms said:

@Nahm Oh interesting.  Thanks.

What do you mean by end of undesirable rollercoaster (to stop searching for knowledge as it is nothing)?  What do you mean by liberation is the stark opposite?

Essentially, this web page is what I mean, or is an attempt to communicate or point, and it is organized in a top to bottom fashion. Short of reading all that, the highlight of what I mean by no more rollercoaster experience is the section called ‘mental & emotional equanimity’. One way to say it is enlightenment is what I am. Therefore, when thoughts arise about enlightenment, and or what I am, in any definitive manor… the believing of such thoughts is the opposite of equanimity. Being me / one, I don’t have to see someone living their life to see in the words that they are experiencing emotional fluctuations that they prefer not to be experiencing, and to know what it is they therefore desire (equanimity). 

In the same way there is no actual experience of a me searching for a knowledge in the first place. If that thought arose, and I believed that thought, experience has been shaped such that I am a separate thing, and knowledge is a separate thing. That is confusing because there is no actual direct experience which matches such a thought. Liberation would therefore be the stark opposite of the experience which ensues, from believing that or those thoughts. 

Going a bit further… in the believing of those or similar thoughts in regard to knowledge… from believing said thoughts, it would then seem that there’s ‘something I need to know, learn or remember’, in terms of spirituality, awakening, enlightenment, etc, while the actuality is there never was, never is, and never will be something necessary to know, learn or understand… and feeling tells me so, if you will. Always was, is right now, and always will be the case. Then it is seen that spirituality is an abstraction, a cover up, which started with, aversion. Only then, could “I have awakened or awakenings or be enlightened”. To arrive at such a conclusion would actually be indicative of ‘being asleep’ in, reaction. Or, to have adapted to the thought attachment ‘right under my own nose’. Or above it, really. Apparently. 

[PepperBlossoms]

@Nahm Your webpage is really great.  Thanks for sharing.

So essentially, we can seek to be liberated from believing our thoughts as truth and the better we are at that, the more mental and emotional calmness we may feel.

Thank you.

[Nahm]

@PepperBlossoms

Thanks. Yes & no… that liberation from believing thoughts could be sought is a thought about, which leads to the thought this is a doing, which one is doing and could be better at, and then there would be more equanimity. 

[PepperBlossoms]

@Nahm (just trying to paraphrase what you wrote:) being free (liberated) from - the thought (about) the idea that thoughts are to be sought - noticing that a thought is a doing action - noticing that one can be better at a thought as a doing action - and then one can feel more calmness (equanimity)

The better we get at tackling and harnessing our thoughts and awareness with them, the less susceptible we are to crazy, wild, angry, sad reactions to those thoughts (as we are the one (possibly) making the thought and making the reaction to the thought).  We can separate ourselves from the thought and look at it distantly as well as get deep in with them and both are cool experiences.

[Nahm]

@PepperBlossoms

Liberation is free of believing thought categorically, not any one particular thought. Cessation is a literal absence of thought activity. Enlightenment is there never were these ‘things’ referred to as ‘thoughts’ in the first place. Thought isn’t a doing action, and thus one cannot be better or worse at it. That there is one which could, is only thought activity. Try now and see in direct experience. 

There is nothing which could ever be done which could lead to calmness, as peace is the true nature and is ever present & infinite, just like the sky (is the ‘sky’.) It’s like having a war to get to peace missing there was peace already before the action of war. War is literally made of peace, the appearance of. What we do with that peace, in which it is experienced as war, circles right back to - thought attachment. 

There is no suggestion here of tackling or harnessing thoughts, nor of an our thoughts, as these are all, thoughts, which highlights thought attachment and meditation.

We, one, can not separate from thought, because it’s only a thought believed that one is a separate thing or entity which could be, separate from, anything at all. Thought is very sneaky. And yet sneaky is another thought. There is definitely, with daily meditation, the experience of spaciousness ‘around’ the thoughts, yes. Most worthwhile, and yet mundane, ordinary, truly & simply reality as it is. What empties is conditioning. 

Maybe think of it like going back to kindergarten, vs doing, or accomplishing, or even working on something. Terms like ‘meditative mind’ or ‘beginner’s mind’ can be very elusive or inadvertently misleading. There seems to be a collective assumption that such a meditative mind is boring, but nothing could be further from the truth. This ‘kindergarten’ is the ‘place’ of experiencing previously unimaginable things, which are not thoughts, ideas, perspectives, etc, etc, but infinite mind, siddi’s, clairvoyance, etc, etc. 

[Vincent S]

@Nahm Thank you for your Wisdom and your work, truly. ???

[PepperBlossoms]

@Nahm So despite the notion of fighting off starvation, disease, money problems, flood, drought, loneliness or when one's hand is on fire, one is getting eaten, stabbed alive, falling off a cliff, or a tornado is overhead, etc., one may not feel like anything even close to peace but yet there is a peace in that things are however they are.  If I feel sad about xyz and I am the universe, is the universe then sad about it too (from the relative perspective) but rather from the whole, the universe may be okay as it is xyz.  Is it then to not force calmness (as that may be fighting and at war with the experience) but rather just try to go with the flow and embrace whatever we are experiencing?  If we are angry, embrace that; if we are hungry, embrace that.  Wars are then created by trying to force peace rather than just accept but yet whatever we do, war or no war, there is peace.

It can be hard to get rid of conditioning (in terms of assumptions and typical responses) or be able to notice where all the conditioning is but me even saying that is from conditioning - even using this language is conditioning.  For one to drop conditioning, one may have to notice what one thinks one knows as well as notice the assumptions and typical responses. To go back to not knowing, not having conditioning, and let the mind do whatever without putting any judgement or requirement on it, I could see that that could allow for more possibilities - but yet some conditioning that we have created gives us stuff to work with - such as characters, landscapes, and conflicts to play with; or the colors and shapes to contrast with.  I can see that our conditioning could get us stuck and limited and confined to some stuff and not more open.

I have had much thought attachment and thinking that thoughts would help for getting to some place and some peace - - but if peace is already the case, we then do not necessarily need to read any books or listen to any podcasts or ask any questions if peace is our goal but yet peace is already so.  Even if I say that "peace is already the case", I still see myself stressing about work, relationships, and stuff to do - - but maybe that stress needs to be looked over some more - - but actually just saying that is then saying that I need to focus on a thought to achieve something instead of just being okay.

I am used to saying/thinking that "I am so messed up" but I guess even this is just a thought and thought's are not really anything and I am already okay however I am.

That is interesting about the idea that the "things" as "thoughts" do not exist - in terms of enlightenment and non-duality and that there is no separation.  I do not exist either as a thing but yet I seem to be "here". 

[Nahm]

20 minutes ago, PepperBlossoms said:

@Nahm So despite the notion of fighting off starvation, disease, money problems, flood, drought, loneliness or when one's hand is on fire, one is getting eaten, stabbed alive, falling off a cliff, or a tornado is overhead, etc., one may not feel like anything even close to peace but yet there is a peace in that things are however they are.  

Notion = the thought of. Not the direct experience of. 

20 minutes ago, PepperBlossoms said:

If I feel sad about xyz and I am the universe, is the universe then sad about it too

If you are the universe there isn’t a universe, there’s you. 

20 minutes ago, PepperBlossoms said:

(from the relative perspective)

What’s that? 

20 minutes ago, PepperBlossoms said:

but rather from the whole, the universe may be okay as it is xyz. 

The universe, or, you? 

20 minutes ago, PepperBlossoms said:

 Is it then to not force calmness (as that may be fighting and at war with the experience) but rather just try to go with the flow and embrace whatever we are experiencing?  If we are angry, embrace that; if we are hungry, embrace that.  Wars are then created by trying to force peace rather than just accept but yet whatever we do, war or no war, there is peace.

A lego war is legos. Could that be accepted (that it’s actually legos)? No. Why? To accept requires denying to begin with. It’s already legos. You could be watching a lego movie and believing whatever you like, or nothing at all, and its still legos. 

20 minutes ago, PepperBlossoms said:

It can be hard to get rid of conditioning (in terms of assumptions and typical responses) or be able to notice where all the conditioning is but me even saying that is from conditioning - even using this language is conditioning.  For one to drop conditioning, one may have to notice what one thinks one knows as well as notice the assumptions and typical responses. To go back to not knowing, not having conditioning, and let the mind do whatever without putting any judgement or requirement on it, I could see that that could allow for more possibilities - but yet some conditioning that we have created gives us stuff to work with - such as characters, landscapes, and conflicts to play with; or the colors and shapes to contrast with.  I can see that our conditioning could get us stuck and limited and confined to some stuff and not more open.

Exactly. 

20 minutes ago, PepperBlossoms said:

I have had much thought attachment and thinking that thoughts would help for getting to some place and some peace - - but if peace is already the case, we then do not necessarily need to read any books or listen to any podcasts or ask any questions if peace is our goal but yet peace is already so.  Even if I say that "peace is already the case", I still see myself stressing about work, relationships, and stuff to do - - but maybe that stress needs to be looked over some more - - but actually just saying that is then saying that I need to focus on a thought to achieve something instead of just being okay.

I am used to saying/thinking that "I am so messed up" but I guess even this is just a thought and thought's are not really anything and I am already okay however I am.

That is interesting about the idea that the "things" as "thoughts" do not exist - in terms of enlightenment and non-duality and that there is no separation.  I do not exist either as a thing but yet I seem to be "here". 

Yes. Beautiful. There is also that shared experienced ‘over here’ so to speak, of that arising thought, “I”.