Why you must be more careful about when to use psychedelics

[HypnoticMagician]

19 minutes ago, The Buddha said:

How poor reality would be if we could only look at 2 flowers. All flowers are beautiful and add glory to existance. You don't like the flower of psychedelics, it's okay you will be able to appreciate the flower of meditation, yoga or sex. All flowers add to the great sum. When I say all, it's all, tantra is a great example of this, all flowers can be used, no matter what.

Also you don't decide which flowers you like and which not, it's a natural because you are also an unique flower.  Enjoy your own flower, enjoy your flowers and let others enjoy their flowers. Radiating with your unique fragrance to the whole existance adding to the glory of reality.

If you don't think like me, it's okay, it's you fragance and I love it.

Om

I love you too God bless you <3

[HypnoticMagician]

@bensenbiz

"you are again just in black / white mode. whats with in between?"

I think there are also occasions when that black / white mode fits pretty well to the context. So it would also be a black or white thinking to say this form of thinking is always false.

[BipolarGrowth]

34 minutes ago, HypnoticMagician said:

It is more deluded when you expand the use of psychedelics to the general population. It does more harm than good. Or, maybe, it is me who is missing something about the true value of psychedelics. Give me the reasons why you don't agree with me. Don't just say you don't agree. Can you provide some sufficiently plausible counter arguments?

I can provide counter arguments, but I haven’t slept. I started typing it out and realized I am unlikely to change your personal opinion. I’ll give a quick answer. I qualified the first post a bit more to what I was meaning. My point was that your lack of results with psychedelics is the main thing causing your view. Go do some research on MDMA helping with PTSD done by the MAPS organization. Too many people thinking psychedelics are all bad is going to result in more harm than good. There are studies on cancer patients overcoming the fear of death so they can live out their lives in far more peace and acceptance. Serotonergic psychedelics clearly help depression in ways typical antidepressants can’t. Magic mushrooms help people quit smoking at higher success rates than traditional methods. It goes on and on if you’re willing to research it with an open mind. 
 

There are plenty of risks of psychedelics. There are plenty of people who probably shouldn’t use them. There are also miraculous benefits and people whose lives wouldn’t be nearly as meaningful without them. 

[HypnoticMagician]

3 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I can provide counter arguments, but I haven’t slept. I started typing it out and realized I am unlikely to change your personal opinion. I’ll give a quick answer. I qualified the first post a bit more to what I was meaning. My point was that your lack of results with psychedelics is the main thing causing your view. Go do some research on MDMA helping with PTSD done by the MAPS organization. Too many people thinking psychedelics are all bad is going to result in more harm than good. There are studies on cancer patients overcoming the fear of death so they can live out their lives in far more peace and acceptance. Serotonergic psychedelics clearly help depression in ways typical antidepressants can’t. Magic mushrooms help people quit smoking at higher success rates than traditional methods. It goes on and on if you’re willing to research it with an open mind. 
 

There are plenty of risks of psychedelics. There are plenty of people who probably shouldn’t use them. There are also miraculous benefits and people whose lives wouldn’t be nearly as meaningful without them. 

You have given an answer of the exact type I want. PTSD patients, cancer patients fearing death, depressive people, addicted smokers benefited from psychedelics... The examples you have given are pretty coherent. I will research these too.  Thanks for the information

[happyhappy]

21 minutes ago, HypnoticMagician said:

@bensenbiz

"you are again just in black / white mode. whats with in between?"

I think there are also occasions when that black / white mode fits pretty well to the context. So it would also be a black or white thinking to say this form of thinking is always false.

just because it doesn't work for you, it  doesn't mean it is so for everyone...

[HypnoticMagician]

22 minutes ago, happyhappy said:

just because it doesn't work for you, it  doesn't mean it is so for everyone...

Even if it works for some, it mustn't be something to rely on this much. It could be used as a temporary means to mitigate the tough problem you are in. But you need eventually be independent of expensive or hard-to-find substances like this. I just wanted to tease you a little so nobody become so addicted to such a thing. How, otherwise, would I attract your attention to the subject? There are way more effective alternatives to this thing. I just wanted to point to that.

[Proserpina]

Psychedelics can serve as an activator for what is already there.  You don't need more than a few doses for an activation that can last a lifetime.  99% of the work is off psychedelics. Imo

[Ineedanswers]

@happyhappy have you ever tried psychadelics machn? If so is it as life changing as Leo,joerogan,Sam Harris etc say it is?

[TheAlchemist]

6 hours ago, HypnoticMagician said:

Of course, it will take a lot of time and effort. Nothing hard is easy to achieve. Very similar to the process of gaining muscle. It will be very painful at first. It will be very difficult to lift even the lightest weights. But you need more patience and perseverance. Otherwise, If you keep thinking like this, constantly trying to reach perfect results without putting sufficient effort into it, you will not be able to arrive anywhere. There is no short-cut. 

^This applies to psychedelics. 

They really do need to be treated like dynamite. Don't take the way most people use psychedelics as a sign of what potential psychedelics have, that is not a good sample to determine their effects. Give 10 solid trips to some philosophers, yogis, systems thinkers, transpersonal or psychodynamic psychologists etc. Then you might be able to start accurately assessing whether they have potential. 

For me the first about 10 trips were just confusing, mostly suffering and intense shame bubbling up, with occasional relief. But that was not a problem of the psychedelics. That was me purifying and facing years of shame and guilt that were stuck in my mind, that I needed to let go of. 

Only now my trips are starting to shift towards topics of society, love, evolution, collective ego, my role in life; with occasional, subtle peeks into God realization. I don't expect a full God realization any time soon since I am taking the gradual approach. Slowly pushing the edge of what I can handle. And slowly it is moving towards the direction of God realization, infinity, all that stuff. But it might be still years until I'm totally commited to go as deep as possible. It is a marathon not a sprint. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by TheAlchemist

[HypnoticMagician]

"Psychedelics can serve as an activator for what is already there.  You don't need more than a few doses for an activation that can last a lifetime.  99% of the work is off psychedelics. Imo"

"have you ever tried psychadelics machn? If so is it as life changing as Leo,joerogan,Sam Harris etc say it is?"

Cool. I am happy for you. If it works, it works.

[gettoefl]

8 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

My friend, society is enormously stupid, deeply sick, wallows in its superficiality and its immeasurable idiocy. 99.99% of humans swim in frustration, uncertainty, clinging to beliefs and expectations without any meaning, completely prisoners of the ego. those considered cultured and intelligent are the most stupid. humanity is a practical joke, a kind of collective madness created for suffering. And do you think that a tool that has the possibility of freeing some minds from the slavery of the ego, is bullshit? well, I accept any gift, regardless of its risks, just as long as there is a remote chance of pulling the sick herd that is humanity out of its trap. Of course, it's my point of view

agree and most important pull me from that sick herd

[wma]

@HypnoticMagician psychedelics fine to peak into the psychedelic realm. however psychedelics must eventually be transcended lest one become trapped in a loop

[Breakingthewall]

3 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

agree and most important pull me from that sick herd

I deleted just after writing because it sounds so negative, but it is true, everyone is a prisoner of the ego, all human evolution is a futile struggle to escape from reality, creating enormous suffering. but it is what it is, we will have to relax and enjoy

[Breakingthewall]

I have such a negative speech because today I had what I call an endarkment. I have had several: morning of meditation, then 5 meo. as soon as I did it, I always think: this without substance is impossible ... and dissolution, beyond everything, to the nucleus, and the nucleus is ... nothing. there is only nothing. sterile, empty, encompasses everything, I am that and I am nothing, I am death, I am absence, I am empty. I know this is the last door. behind this, I am. or was me before the void and i deceived me? haha I know not, because here I am. I am. So tomorrow I will return to the void, until it opens. It has only been opened once, and nothingness was everything, it was an infinite source from which I flowed without limit. the jackpot, but before there is this emptiness ... you have to die to live, you know. serve this story as an explanation of what a substance does 

you may think: is this any good? I don't know, I just know that I want to get to the nucleus, I have to open all the doors, and that's it, I don't care how.

Following the theme of the thread : i do psychedelics for about 1 year and a half (not so often but many times,more than monthly) it has changed me completely. I have seen the enormous impurities that existed in my life and I have been polishing them, I have seen that the truth exists and I understand that I have to be worthy of it, that I have to eliminate any trace of lies, crooked behavior, desires, ideas about the enlightenment. I have to purify myself to be who I am, I meditate for several hours a day and it's wonderful, before was a pain, I have eliminated the lie, which I used without problem before, I have stopped any practice with a connotation of evasion and addiction, my day to day is much happier than a year ago in several orders of magnitude, my relationships with people better, have dived into the trauma of my life, I have understood it, I have decreased anxiety x10, I'm more me than ever, and this is not by far the end. Without psychedelic it would take me 2 lifes

Edited October 23, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[Snader]

@HypnoticMagician I respect your view as you have some good arguments there, but I would like to point out something here.

I agree with you that psychedelics are not for the majority. Even though I'm pro-psychedelics, I can't really recommend them to many people. In my opinion, a person has to be psychologically very clear and stable, and also be serious about life and development, to make psychedelics beneficial, which many people are not. Otherwise the ''information'' received through psychedelic experience will most likely be damaging. Although there is clinical psychedelic use which is totally another case.

Also, it's important to notice that the ''damage'' psychedelics may have on you can be an opportunity or cure in disguise, and so lead to healing and other positive stuff in the long run. But yeah, there is not scientific evidence on that I suppose, but that's something I've personally experienced.

I'm also concerned sometimes about Leo's strong emphasis on psychedelics, as I know through direct experience how twisted affect they may have even on very stable and clear-minded people, but considering my own psychedelic experiences and the experiences Leo might have had through his many psychedelic trips, and while having had deep enough insights and glimpses of something very deep and profound that Leo talks about in his videos, I can definitely understand why he so strongly suggests psychedelics. Even though he's probably gone so deep, that so called ''common efficiency'' is no more the primary concern, he still strongly talks about the dangers and emphasizes safety. That brings me to the point I want to bring up from your post:

You clearly have a bias there, which is totally understandable and in terms of safety, very valid and responsible. But you draw a connection between psychedelics and stuff like high IQ and concentration ability. While those traits are healthy and generally something that a functional human being possess, who say those traits should ultimately be above any other traits and the validity of psychedelics determined by those? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing that connection exists, I only want you to take a close look and think whether there is a connection between what traits you value and what traits society is mostly ran by, and then see if that has an affect to your strong opinion of psychedelics.

Among high IQ and concentration you mentioned logic. You question what is the logical benefit of psychedelics. There is research done already of the clinical benefits and more is to come in the future, but sure, some positive research results don't directly prove them to be beneficial in one's own personal development work. But if you've done spiritual work and are conscious enough, you learn that there is more to life beyond logic, and that's something psychedelics can show you. Again, that doesn't allow the safe general usage, but that's certainly a point to contemplate as an other side of the coin. AND if you are wise, those ''beyond logic'' experiences can be turned into wisdom, that can be turned into some very practical stuff that will benefit your normal everyday life and make you a more functional human being. 

My opinion is that 1) psychedelics can be beneficial in general personal development, but only if you are super super responsible, reasonable and psychologically mature. Because so few people are that way, I'm very careful for talking people into that. 2) However, in the realm of spirituality, non-duality and metaphysics, well... They are a killer. And of course, to use psychedelics for the purposes of (2), the requirements from (1) must to be met.

[Salvijus]

I have a feeling that the problems that psychedelics can help a person with, like depression, addiction, lack of motivation, trauma release etc, are a bit coincidential. I bet you could get the same benefits out of any intense experience in life. Just take sky diving, for example, I bet doing sky diving would solve most people's depression, lack of motivation, some compulsive addiction and the rest of it. Sky diving could even transform your life in some very deep way, it could permemnantly change you and your view on life and that's good. But that's all child's stuff really when it comes to consciouness work, these changes may improve your life, but they're not of much spiritual significance. And really one should try to solve such basic problems like depression through natural means like meditation and healthy concious lifestyle, not by popping pills all the time. These days people are really crazy with these pills. Want health? pills. Want energy? pills. Can't concentrate? pills. Anxiety? pills. Depression? pills. Can't sleep? pills. Enlightenment? pills. Seriously... this is such a sloppy mindset for me... it smells like a disaster from miles away.

If a person is really serious about consciouness work, it would be wiser to adopt a valid spiritual discipline and lifestyle that takes ones consciousness higher on a daily basis. And not to think that you can just skip 40years of work with this "new" technology. Tho yes there are some paths that include external substances to their spiritual practice but those are done exclusively, with very serious studends, under very specific conditions, with right guidence, practices and lifestyle along with it. Just doing drugs with no spiritual dicipline leads to nowhere, in fact people become degraded and dumb this way after a while. The only reason psychedelic users grow is because they have a meditation practice going along with it. To promote psychedelics for bare beginners who are just looking for exitement and an escape from their problems is just foolish. Even if psychedelics can be used for spiritual work potentially, they should not be promoted to masses because all the wrong people will take on it first, for all the wrong reasons, and abuse them in all the wrong ways. You need to have some sense not to give a gun to an ape.

Sorry, if this triggers someone's nerve because it's a very sensitive subject around here ?

Much love,

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Salvijus

[Nahm]

The relevance of that distinction between a thought of an experience and the actuality of an experience is really highlighted in matters of giving something up. One could be holding the thoughts of giving up the experience, without realizing the possibility of giving up the thoughts, and knowing the actuality of the experience. Then the bullshit would be properly sourced. Again though, this is no plea, psychedelics are clearly not for you. 

[Snader]

@Salvijus Great points!

[gettoefl]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I have such a negative speech because today I had what I call an endarkment. I have had several: morning of meditation, then 5 meo. as soon as I did it, I always think: this without substance is impossible ... and dissolution, beyond everything, to the nucleus, and the nucleus is ... nothing. there is only nothing. sterile, empty, encompasses everything, I am that and I am nothing, I am death, I am absence, I am empty. I know this is the last door. behind this, I am. or was me before the void and i deceived me? haha I know not, because here I am. I am. So tomorrow I will return to the void, until it opens. It has only been opened once, and nothingness was everything, it was an infinite source from which I flowed without limit. the jackpot, but before there is this emptiness ... you have to die to live, you know. serve this story as an explanation of what a substance does 

you may think: is this any good? I don't know, I just know that I want to get to the nucleus, I have to open all the doors, and that's it, I don't care how.

Following the theme of the thread : i do psychedelics for about 1 year and a half (not so often but many times,more than monthly) it has changed me completely. I have seen the enormous impurities that existed in my life and I have been polishing them, I have seen that the truth exists and I understand that I have to be worthy of it, that I have to eliminate any trace of lies, crooked behavior, desires, ideas about the enlightenment. I have to purify myself to be who I am, I meditate for several hours a day and it's wonderful, before was a pain, I have eliminated the lie, which I used without problem before, I have stopped any practice with a connotation of evasion and addiction, my day to day is much happier than a year ago in several orders of magnitude, my relationships with people better, have dived into the trauma of my life, I have understood it, I have decreased anxiety x10, I'm more me than ever, and this is not by far the end. Without psychedelic it would take me 2 lifes

beautiful

[HypnoticMagician]

@Snader

"But you draw a connection between psychedelics and stuff like high IQ and concentration ability."

Why did you exclude the bliss supposed to be reached more easily with psychedelics while at the same time claiming it is more likely to reach enlightenment through this substance. You wanna enjoy just being. What couldn't you enjoy if you were able to enjoy just being?

"But if you've done spiritual work and are conscious enough, you learn that there is more to life beyond logic, and that's something psychedelics can show you."

This doesn't make psychedelics the only way to go beyond logic.

@Salvijus

I am glad you got most of my points. But here :

"And not to think that you can just skip 40years of work with this "new" technology."

40 years? Are you serious? There many people who reach enlightenment without using anything like psychedelics or artificial DMT. For all that, there also a lot of people who fail in this enlightenment process no matter how many different types of it they have tried for however long.

Thanks anyway for being sufficiently open-minded. I am doing my best to understand why so many people are into this kind of substances with as much open-mindedness as possible.