Spotting narcissism (psychology)

[Terell Kirby]

How do you detect narcissism in yourself and others? 

[Moksha]

Lack of empathy and love. Awakening is seeing the sameness of yourself in others, and narcissism is only seeing the value of yourself.

[Terell Kirby]

43 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Lack of empathy and love. Awakening is seeing the sameness of yourself in others, and narcissism is only seeing the value of yourself.

So true.

[Matt23]

Try seeing how much you draw the conversation back to yourself when with others or how many times you use the word "I" in convos.  

Likewise see how interested you are in others' when in conversations and ask them things or say things that don't bring the convo back to yourself or say things that make you seem better than, trying to impressive, be funny, etc., to a degree that's often and which can be off-putting.  You might start to see people like move away from the conversation and not keep the convo going if this is the case.  I think I notice this a lot with myself. 

Lack of concern or love or appreciation for others, and if there is, it's mostly a superficial concern that's just meant to "get you by" socially and ultimately make you look good and acceptable to others.

Also, strangely something that I think gets missed in discussions about narcissism, is a deeper insecurity in oneself.  I've recently been watching some videos on narcissism and borderline personality disorders (some are starting to think these are on the same spectrum along with histrionic personality disorder), and I think several experts in the field mentioned something about how often narcissistic behaviors and traits are really just a cover to protect a deeply vulnerable ego-structure underneath, and that even in therapy when successfully treating narcissism there's a sequence that goes from narcissistic -> dependency with the therapist (unveiling the insecure core) --> to hopefully a stronger and more secure ego-structure.  

If one doesn't feel lovable, perhaps from wounds as a young child, then that core lives on and the person thinks their true ego-structure isn't acceptable to others, so they build a facade (a 'persona') which is designed to build themselves up in a false way, thus protecting themselves from their deep feelings of inadequacy and unlovability.  

Quite interesting.  

Also consider there to be different degrees of narcissism.  Ranging from healthy (being able to set firm boundaries for oneself, have ambitious goals, love oneself for oneself in a healthy way, etc.) all the way to pathological narcissism where the person actually gains some pleasure in hurting others and misinterprets reality and others (often in negative ways).  

Other signs:

Few close relationships (trouble maintain any close relationship), and many superficial relationships. 

Mental health issues.

Fears of being humiliated. 

Seeing others as either better or worse than you; constant comparison without equality.

Probably a sense of emptiness/drained/lack of meaning and lack of a full and satisfying sense of self.  -- maybe. 

Here's a vid:

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

it's tricky from a certain perspective when you consider that the self esteem that's usually pitched and is pretty much a necessity equates as fundamental narcissism which is often overlooked. When speaking of narcissism people are usually taking about pathological narcissism. But in Self Realization self identity is out the window.

 I like these quotes from Almaas. 

Approaching the Dimension of Essential Presence We Inevitably Confront the Narcissism Inherent in Our Disconnection from that Presence

When a person is working on self-realization, this narcissism is increasingly exposed; in fact, it is usually aggravated for some time. When we approach the dimension of essential presence we inevitably confront the narcissism inherent in our disconnection from that presence. The success of the work on self-realization depends, to a great degree, upon successfully resolving the arousal and intensification of narcissistic manifestations. The narcissism of everyday life is much more ubiquitous, much deeper, and much more significant than we usually allow ourselves to see. However, it dissolves steadily in the deeper stages of self-realization. Full self-realization completely eliminates this narcissism, for it is not natural to the realized self

The Point of Existence, pg. 27

Complete Resolution of Narcissism Requires that We Cease to use Self-representations for Self-recognition

Before we embark on this exploration, we need to address the significance of the above discussion with respect to narcissism. Our observation that the deepest root of narcissism is the absence of self-realization and the additional observation that in full self-realization the normal sense of identity dissolves, combine to give us a deep insight about narcissism: The presence of the normal identity is the root of narcissism. This implies two further insights, at different levels of the self. The first is that not only is normal identity fundamentally weak and vulnerable, but its very existence is responsible for this weakness, and thus it cannot become completely stable. In other words, the normal self (or more accurately, the ego-self) is inherently narcissistic because its identity is inherently weak and vulnerable. This weakness is due to the inevitable incompleteness of the self-representation, and therefore cannot be eliminated as long as the self-representation forms our sense of identity. Second, since the fundamental narcissism of everyday life is an expression of normal identity, complete resolution of narcissism requires that we cease to use self-representations for self-recognition.

The Point of Existence, pg. 129

Taken from; https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/narcissism-everyday-life

[Loba]

You spot it by looking for the symptoms and then seeing if the person in question does the same thing over and over and over again with new people or new situations without ever learning. 

The next step is laughing, pointing, and going your own way.

Congrats.  You have now avoided a narc.

Celebrate with beers.  Cheers. ??

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Loba

[gettoefl]

time spent speaking / time spent listening

[Proserpina]

How do they react when you are at your lowest?

Do they abuse you in the name of truth and honesty?

How do they react when your painbody is mildly active?

When you pick yourself apart do they chime in and help you pick yourself apart?

[Carl-Richard]

I think I'm sensitive to some forms of narcissism in others because I recognize it in myself (<= fake humble statement, crypto-narcissism ). I could maybe give an example to answer your question. There is this funny situation at my school where I suspect one of the teachers is a bit above average in narcissism. She is very good at her job (teaching psychology and being a clinical psychologist), but there are some things that I pick up on that seem suspicious and that I've confirmed with others.

My first impression of her reminded me of an old school teacher: strict, clear-spoken, to the point. Some friend of mine said she had "bad vibes", and that really resonated with me. She is usually fearless and charming in her presentation, but sometimes she seems very insecure about petty things like pronouncing long words incorrectly or just saying something wrong in general, something which most teachers will simply brush off like it's nothing.

She likes to talk a lot about her own experiences as a way to illustrate a concept, which is not uncommon for a teacher to do, but it's the frequency of which it happens that seems unusual (and I've confirmed this with other students). She tends to use personal pronouns like "I", "me", "my" a lot. Other lecturers tend to be much more detached from their ego and focused on the topic. 

When a student asks a question, she is very quick to give an absolute yes or no answer, or say something like "no, that is not correct." Usually, most other teachers are much more sensitive and accommodating to the student's perspective. Generally, she is a bit blunt, and for example when she is role-playing being a sensitive therapist as a part of the lecture, it comes off as forced and inauthentic. Ironically, it feels more right when she plays the rude therapists that doesn't listen and wants to force their own perspective on the client .

She also seems to have no problems repressing emotions in exposure therapy. She recalled a time where the client had to induce a panic attack, and as the client was crying, she said stone-faced "should we try again?" She said it almost as a point of pride, but then added a caveat of "of course you have to be a little sensitive to the client's own requests and let them have a cool-down period between each exposure", which is what you would expect from a good therapist, but nevertheless, it seems a little off.

Ok, so nothing too conclusive so far. However, there is one thing that, if true, might seal the deal, but it might also just be my own imagination (I haven't confirmed it with other people yet). I remember one time when she was talking about the client-therapist relationship and how it's not that uncommon for therapists to sleep with their clients, and that it's of course not an OK thing to do. At first I didn't think much of it – it was nothing more than a fun fact, but then she mentioned it again, and again, and again: "you shouldn't sleep with your clients"; 3 times, relatively unprovoked, in the same lecture. That made me slightly suspicious.

Then in some other lecture about communication techniques and personal boundaries, she managed to mention it again, twice, relatively tangential to the conversation. It made me cringe so hard. I started thinking "is this actually happening?" "Is she this unaware?" "am I completely deluding myself?" I'm pretty certain that I wasn't the only one who reacted this way, but it's such a wild thought that you automatically want to repress it, as if you're gaslighting yourself by thinking "that did not just happen".

Another time, she talked about the Big 5 personality traits and that some personalities are less agreeable than others, and that her husband certainly knows what that feels like . I'm sure there are other minor things I could mention that doesn't enter my mind at the moment, but this is what stands out the most.

What do you guys think? 

[Breakingthewall]

On 21/10/2021 at 7:15 AM, Matt23 said:

If one doesn't feel lovable, perhaps from wounds as a young child, then that core lives on and the person thinks their true ego-structure isn't acceptable to others, so they build a facade (a 'persona') which is designed to build themselves up in a false way, thus protecting themselves from their deep feelings of inadequacy and unlovability

That is. It is something terrible that generates enormous anxiety. It turns the person into an empty shell that fights 24 hours for their self-esteem, and their way of fighting is precisely to get away from true self-esteem. Life put me in the funny situation, as a teenager, of going to live with my crazed narcissistic father and his young, submissive nurse-wife. As he was a pianist, and had a lot of social success, I went with an open mind: good! I'm going to learn the secrets of masculinity. I'm in luck. what a joke! 

I think I can detect a narcissist by the tone of his voice, his posture. They are people who talk to themselves, they look at themselves. they are trying to convince themselves that they are not a piece of shit all the time. every word that comes out of his mouth can be translated as: I am not shit. what a curse they have on them. My sister, a psychologist, who at this moment maybe is looking for her next narcissist to submit to, thinks that I have a completely distorted vision, that my father was a wonderful person, handsome and a pianist, and that everyone loved him. in fact we hardly speak to each other because this subject. it is a taboo subject in my family. for me it is absolutely obvious, but who knows ...the power of a narcissist could be enormous if you don't detect them

Edited October 22, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[gettoefl]

34 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

That is. It is something terrible that generates enormous anxiety. It turns the person into an empty shell that fights 24 hours for their self-esteem, and their way of fighting is precisely to get away from true self-esteem. Life put me in the funny situation, as a teenager, of going to live with my crazed narcissistic father and his young, submissive nurse-wife. As he was a pianist, and had a lot of social success, I went with an open mind: good! I'm going to learn the secrets of masculinity. I'm in luck. what a joke! 

I think I can detect a narcissist by the tone of his voice, his posture. They are people who talk to themselves, they look at themselves. they are trying to convince themselves that they are not a piece of shit all the time. every word that comes out of his mouth can be translated as: I am not shit. what a curse they have on them. My sister, a psychologist, who at this moment maybe is looking for her next narcissist to submit to, thinks that I have a completely distorted vision, that my father was a wonderful person, handsome and a pianist, and that everyone loved him. in fact we hardly speak to each other because this subject. it is a taboo subject in my family. for me it is absolutely obvious, but who knows ...the power of a narcissist could be enormous if you don't detect them

family members are difficult since they overlap our own bubble so much ... thanks for sharing and thanks for all your posts, i always get so much from them

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, gettoefl said:

family members are difficult since they overlap our own bubble so much ... thanks for sharing and thanks for all your posts, i always get so much from them

Thanks, the same I tell you about your posts.

the family issue is complicated, and in this case it is incontestable because my parents died when I was a teenager, but in this case, I think the key is that my family are deeply idiots?. Seriously, I think the spell of a "successful" narcissist runs very deep. the people with whom he has used seduction see him as an extraordinary one. It is strange being someone addicted, alcoholic and perpetually angry, but many people only see one thing: the company of this person raises me, or lowers me? Narcissism at the end

Edited October 22, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[gettoefl]

28 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Thanks, the same I tell you about your posts.

the family issue is complicated, and in this case it is incontestable because my parents died when I was a teenager, but in this case, I think the key is that my family are deeply idiots?. Seriously, I think the spell of a "successful" narcissist runs very deep. the people with whom he has used seduction see him as an extraordinary one. It is strange being someone addicted, alcoholic and perpetually angry, but many people only see one thing: the company of this person raises me, or lowers me? Narcissism at the end

can completely relate to this and myself am also dealing with abusive bullying control freak family members to this day ... but in our defense you and i have the vantage point of awareness, and when we see others closer than close we see the whole madness, they may present a good facade to all and sundry but we see how it is built on deep dysfunction

Edited October 22, 2021 by gettoefl

[Nahm]

Not suppressing feeling & intuition. 

[Matt23]

On 10/22/2021 at 1:31 PM, Nahm said:

Not suppressing feeling & intuition. 

Do you mean "Suppressing feeling and intuition"?...  Cuz it seems to me like suppression is antithetical to growth, authenticity, and love or honesty.  I mean, I can see how not suppressing feeling could be narcissistic and unhealthy since one could just be expressing all their shadow shit and negativity onto others: "Oh, I feel rage at this person on the street, I'll just scream at them."  But the intuition thing I don't get.

[Carl-Richard]

20 minutes ago, Matt23 said:

Do you mean "Suppressing feeling and intuition"?...  Cuz it seems to me like suppression is antithetical to growth, authenticity, and love or honesty.  I mean, I can see how not suppressing feeling could be narcissistic and unhealthy since one could just be expressing all their shadow shit and negativity onto others: "Oh, I feel rage at this person on the street, I'll just scream at them."  But the intuition thing I don't get.

He is talking about spotting narcissism, not being a narcissist. To spot narcissism, use feeling and intuition.

[Nahm]

On 10/20/2021 at 7:33 PM, Terell Kirby said:

How do you detect narcissism in yourself and others? 

@Matt23

One not suppressing feeling & intuition naturally see’s this. Instead of feeling, narcissism is a looking to the black and white of thought, to maintain the overly inflated self image or ‘separate self’, or, to uphold the ‘knower’. Thus this thought attachment, or, ‘living in the black & white of thought’ veils the only-grey of intuition. There is the knowing of thoughts, in the ‘I know, I’m right’ manor, and in the relinquishment of this attachment to thought, there is knowingness, or knowing, void of black & white, yet with no thing actually known at all.  The relevance of this is essentially listening to feeling, when experiencing information, and ‘listening to’ intuition, and not overriding it suppression / thought attachment, as not to be manipulated. 

The reason feeling & intuition ‘works’ or is curative, is because while narcissism might sound ‘big’ or complicated perhaps, it’s really just a utilization of intellectualism / conceptualism as a coping mechanism for fear. The ‘self image’ is the idea of a me exacerbated to compensate for the fear (self referential beliefs). It’s also easy to spot in that in this upholding of a self image, narcissism dictates there can be no intimate relationships, because that opens the door to accountability for behaviors, which would surely & quickly lead to addressing the fear. I believe that is referred to a ‘pure narcissism’, while ‘regular’ narcism dictates relationships are allowable, yet narcissism only attracts significant others of the vibration of unworthiness, which is the underlying vibration / beliefs of ‘the narcissist’. (Because ‘a narcissist’ is so attached to thought, it is actually believed the self image is them / everyone else is thus below them / not even close to their inflated self image). The self image would be that of a self proclaimed master, if you will, while the actuality is mastering coping utilizing the capacity of the intellect. Hence, again, feeling is curative.

Thread wise, the easiest way to spot this is the hypocrisy, self righteousness, and denial of accountability (in narcissism these are only conceptual and have no ramifications on anyone). And thus, another easy way to spot is the utilization of love to manipulate people… as the conceptualization of themself (self image) is the fear, and relentless attempt of intellect to resolve this / be loved vs be loving. 

[Preety_India]

Use your feeling and intuition. I had to deal with many narcissists in my life. 

One way to know is the kind of conversation they have with you. Do they ask you, "how are you feeling?" 

For me the most powerful indicator (from personal experience) is when they go on rambling about their lives without letting me catch a break. That's when I know I'm dealing with a narcissist. They love to keep on talking endlessly and don't let you go. They dump their problems on you and when you ask for advice they turn away.

They generally treat you shitty when you're down in life because to them successful people matter more than emotional people. 

 

[lmfao]

On 21/10/2021 at 6:15 AM, Matt23 said:

I've recently been watching some videos on narcissism and borderline personality disorders (some are starting to think these are on the same spectrum along with histrionic personality disorder), and I think several experts in the field mentioned something about how often narcissistic behaviors and traits are really just a cover to protect a deeply vulnerable ego-structure underneath, and that even in therapy when successfully treating narcissism there's a sequence that goes from narcissistic -> dependency with the therapist (unveiling the insecure core) --> to hopefully a stronger and more secure ego-structure.  

@Matt23 A friend of mine in passing mentioned some theory that BPD is the original form of all cluster B disorders, but I googled it and couldn't find anything. You know anything about that by any chance? And could you briefly restate or elaborate on what you mean in bold here? 

[Matt23]

10 hours ago, lmfao said:

You know anything about that by any chance?

Nah.  

10 hours ago, lmfao said:

could you briefly restate or elaborate on what you mean in bold here? 

I interpreted it as like if one has a lot of insecurity within them (maybe they had an experience as a child where they expressed some authentic/core aspect of themselves but it was severely chastised or neglected or something [intentionally or unintentionally]), so then alleviating all the defenses against that felt-sense of being and actually feeling it could bring up lots of insecurity since one fears they may feel that pain and rejection again. 

So when a person/therapist manages to sort of get that person to expose their core-self, they may feel (this is where I'm hypothesizing) vulnerable as that part hasn't "been in the world or with others" truly (since it's just been covered by defenses) so it may feel the need to be more dependent and seek protection from another attachment figure (hopeful more healthy, mature, and secure person) to help it relax with itself and be more secure and trusting of itself. 

I dunno. 

My felt-sense about it and assumptions/guesses... maybe informed by some experiences and other theories etc.. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Matt23