5meo , Suffering And Ethics

[Paulo Barbosa]

Hi everyone,

I am a newcomer on this forum but I have been following Leo's videos for quite some time now.

I have a few questions that are burning my mind and I really need some clarification from someone in the know.

The thing is, after I watched Leo's videos on 5meo my worldview has taken a big blow.

After cross checking many reported experiences on the substance I came to the conclusion that they must be genuine and somehow conducive to the same results.

I have not experienced the substance myself (not yet anyway) so my grounds are just on the realm of assumptions and beliefs.

Nevertheless, I am convinced that that must be it. God, infinite, Truth, etc. may be in fact accessible to all of us.

Now, with that being said, I am still confused about a few things. Probably some of you will tell me to take the plunge and try the substance, which I will probably end up doing, but for the time being I really need your support and clarification.

So, after reading reports, books and watching videos on the matter, it seems to me that most people agree on the following:

1. God exists and can be experienced

2. God is everything (me and you included)

3. God is infinite and perfect

4. The must noticeable trait of God is pure love

5. God created this reality to experience him(her)self and reality will eventually go back to the source (all is ok after all)

6. Suffering exists due to the ego

With those assumptions in mind, I have a few things that I do not understand:  (and if possible, please try to convey your answers in other terms than "your rational mind is the one creating the splits" or "get enlightened and then you will know").

1. How can God be infinite and pure love at the same time? The first characteristic is all encompassing whereas the second one seems to be dual and therefore limited.

2. How can God be pure love and still create or allow suffering in this world? And even if the ego is to blame, was it also not created by God? And if yes, why did God created the ego in the first place?

3. If this is just God experiencing him(her)self and ultimately there is nothing to improve upon in this world, how does compassion fit in? Would it be fundamentally the same , for example, to give money to charities or to live your life oblivious of others?

4. Does Karma exist? Does it have any purge purpose? And if so, why?

So thank you very much everyone for reading this and for your kind answers!!!

 

 

[Tancrede Pouyat]

Here's a partial perspective :

Pure love is dual ? Where did you get that idea ? Don't confuse the mainstream idea of "love" and actual pure love. "love" in the mainstream sense could be compared to extreme compassion and rapport (at least from my point of view). But pure love (as in, the Love of God) is more like an energy, an energy that allows phenomena to happen, an energy that every human being perceives through their 5 senses and their thoughts. Also, you say that God is everything. Therefore it is pure love. And it is ego. And it is suffering. And it is EVERYTHING !!!!!

12 minutes ago, Paulo Barbosa said:

How can God be pure love and still create or allow suffering in this world?

Again, if you look at pure love as an energy that allows phenomena, then that question is stupid. Suffering is phenomena.

By the way, this perspective of seeing pure love as a sort of energy isn't groundless. A lot of people having had enlightenment experiences, and/or breakthrough 5-MeO trips report seeing love that way. Of course, this is metaphorical, and I have not experienced anything of the sort myself, so... But, still.

14 minutes ago, Paulo Barbosa said:

If this is just God experiencing him(her)self and ultimately there is nothing to improve upon in this world, how does compassion fit in?

There is nothing. Period. NOTHING AT ALL !!!!! And this nothingness is also absolutely everything. And you ARE that. There might be nothing to improve on the nothingness side of you, but there definitely is a lot to improve on the everythingness side of you.

Of course you don't have to improve anything. But just realize that you ARE the ENTIRETY of ALL THE SUFFERING IN THE WORLD !!!!! I don't know about you but I don't think I could bear this much.

20 minutes ago, Paulo Barbosa said:

why did God created the ego in the first place?

Because anything that can be is, has always been, and will always be. Otherwise God wouldn't be Absolute Infinity.

22 minutes ago, Paulo Barbosa said:

Would it be fundamentally the same , for example, to give money to charities or to live your life oblivious of others?

Essentially, yes. It would be fundamentally the same. However, why settle ? Why do nothing with your life ? See, when you become enlightened, all you do is see through the illusion of the ego. But that doesn't mean you don't spend any time in your ego. In fact you probably spend most of your time in your ego. So if you're gonna play that game, why not play it well ?

So yes, it's the same when you're not in ego. But no, it's not the same when you're in ego. Also, it's hard to transcend a weak ego, personal development is a part of becoming enlightened, there's a reason a lot of people don't believe in God.

28 minutes ago, Paulo Barbosa said:

Does Karma exist?

Yes. But it's not "the universe punishes you when you do bad things," nor is it "if you do bad things in this life, you will be reborn as a bad thing." It's more something like : You did something selfish and now you enjoy the suffering. Let me clarify what I mean by "selfish." I mean basically anything that assumes that there is a self doing something. Aka. literally everything you do when you're not enlightened.

The Buddha used karma to essentially describe the endless suffering that comes with not being enlightened, because why pursue enlightenment, right ? It's only after you become enlightened that you can act completely selflessly.

[hundreth]

2 hours ago, Paulo Barbosa said:

Hi everyone,

I am a newcomer on this forum but I have been following Leo's videos for quite some time now.

I have a few questions that are burning my mind and I really need some clarification from someone in the know.

The thing is, after I watched Leo's videos on 5meo my worldview has taken a big blow.

After cross checking many reported experiences on the substance I came to the conclusion that they must be genuine and somehow conducive to the same results.

I have not experienced the substance myself (not yet anyway) so my grounds are just on the realm of assumptions and beliefs.

Nevertheless, I am convinced that that must be it. God, infinite, Truth, etc. may be in fact accessible to all of us.

Now, with that being said, I am still confused about a few things. Probably some of you will tell me to take the plunge and try the substance, which I will probably end up doing, but for the time being I really need your support and clarification.

So, after reading reports, books and watching videos on the matter, it seems to me that most people agree on the following:

1. God exists and can be experienced

2. God is everything (me and you included)

3. God is infinite and perfect

4. The must noticeable trait of God is pure love

5. God created this reality to experience him(her)self and reality will eventually go back to the source (all is ok after all)

6. Suffering exists due to the ego

With those assumptions in mind, I have a few things that I do not understand:  (and if possible, please try to convey your answers in other terms than "your rational mind is the one creating the splits" or "get enlightened and then you will know").

1. How can God be infinite and pure love at the same time? The first characteristic is all encompassing whereas the second one seems to be dual and therefore limited.

2. How can God be pure love and still create or allow suffering in this world? And even if the ego is to blame, was it also not created by God? And if yes, why did God created the ego in the first place?

3. If this is just God experiencing him(her)self and ultimately there is nothing to improve upon in this world, how does compassion fit in? Would it be fundamentally the same , for example, to give money to charities or to live your life oblivious of others?

4. Does Karma exist? Does it have any purge purpose? And if so, why?

So thank you very much everyone for reading this and for your kind answers!!!

 

Whoa man, great questions. I often wonder many of the same things. It does seem odd that absolute infinity would have some kind of "bias" towards "love" or positive energy. So I'm not sure what the answer is there. If the answer is that love is an energy that allows phenomena, that's not really saying anything... that's just playing the semantics game and changing the definition of love.

You could say that absolute infinity allows a certain amount of negative energy simply to highlight the good energy, to create a contrast as this dualist illusion - but there's more "love." I don't buy this though. Seems our western minds are still stuck on this anthropomorphic image of God with biases, etc. You often see movies and various media where "good always wins in the end." 

In the east, you see symbols like yin yang. There's an equal amount of light and dark. There's a balance. In the end, there's peace. I personally resonate with that more. 

Regarding purpose and improving the world, ultimately it's just an experience. There is no better or worse way to be. Just be true to yourself. Infinity allows for all possibilities.

Really looking forward to other answers, and good luck on your journey.

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, Paulo Barbosa said:

How can God be pure love and still create or allow suffering in this world?

God has given you freedom , you can create suffering, it is your choice. 

2 hours ago, Paulo Barbosa said:

And even if the ego is to blame, was it also not created by God? And if yes, why did God created the ego in the first place?

It is a game, you are free to live unconsciously , create the ego, create suffering, start living consciously to end the suffering. It is a game without any purpose. 

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, Paulo Barbosa said:

God exists and can be experienced

To ask whether God exists is absurd. God Is Existence. Unless you become one with existence, it can't be experienced. You can't experience it, as you are, till you are separate from existence.

[Paulo Barbosa]

Thank you very much for all the answers so far.

I am still trying to digest everything that has been written as a response to my post.

Unfortunately, as I am not awaken, I can only lean towards some answers that resonate with my conditioning.

If only I was able to tell which answers are the real deal...    

Cheers everyone!!!

[Paulo Barbosa]

Ok! So first of all let me thank you guys (Tancrede Pouyat, hundreth and  Prabhaker) once more.

I am now ready to shoot a few more questions based on the answers that were presented, namely:

1. If love is energy why not to settle for the latter designation? Even if someone tries to communicate something that ultimately cannot be put into words, when the attempt is made, they are going to use language that portrays as good as possible the properties of what has been experienced. At least this is my take on the subject.

2. Could it be that the thing that we need improvement upon is just the realisation that in the end there is nothing to be improved? 

3. Why is helping others something of higher value in this relative world? Who posited that value over any other?

4. Even if suffering can be seen as a matter of choice, why did God not limit it for the sake of a nicer experience? If nice is not what God was looking for but rather a thorough experience, should we assume that suffering is a necessary part of it? Because if this is the case it feels that by trying to mitigate or eliminate suffering we would be acting against the will of God! 

Cheers!!!

[Arman]

3 hours ago, hundreth said:

Whoa man, great questions. I often wonder many of the same things. It does seem odd that absolute infinity would have some kind of "bias" towards "love" or positive energy. So I'm not sure what the answer is there. If the answer is that love is an energy that allows phenomena, that's not really saying anything... that's just playing the semantics game and changing the definition of love.

The way I've come to understand this is not so much that the universe has 'chosen' love out of all the qualities because it simply likes it, rather that Love is the natural state of least resistance. I think maybe it's that all things move towards the path of least resistance naturally the same way that air moves from high pressure to low pressure, and so all creation moves into love because it is the most effective state. If we have a group of individuals who are trying to achieve a unified goal, then love is an optimal state for them to perform in to achieve their goal. Love is just practical and effective for expansion. It allows for the most creativity, cooperation, ease, allowance, inspiration, etc. 

3 hours ago, hundreth said:

2. How can God be pure love and still create or allow suffering in this world? And even if the ego is to blame, was it also not created by God? And if yes, why did God created the ego in the first place?

I will share with you a metaphor I was exploring one night in bed that allowed me to come to peace with this idea for the first time, at least to my mind. Not saying this is the way it is, but it was the first time I felt warmth, understanding and some peace on the topic.

I was thinking about lucid dreaming and the way in dreams we can create within them. So if we were completely in control, we could create any world, any reality, limited only by our imagination.

I imagined a black endless canvas and I was wondering what I would create. What i would most want in the world. The first thing that came to my mind was to create endless beautiful forests and gardens. Then, eventually I decided I wanted to create inhabitants to make it interesting, so I imagined animals who wore clothes and lived in small villages like peter rabbit or something. Then I wondered, how would I want my inhabitants to act? What would I like them to behave like? I decided I would like them to be loving, both to each other and to me.

However at this point there was the first inkling of quandary, because it felt insincere or weird to MAKE them love me. I mean if I designed them specifically to love me all day long, then they are automatons or programs, are they not? I also didn't want to have to dictate every moment of their lives, because then that isn't particularly fun or interesting for me, is it? I want to see what they do, how they interract, play etc. So I want to create initial circumstances to create positive potential, but then let the program/world play.

This means giving them free will. But there is a problem with free will, because to give them free will means I also have to give them the option to not be loving. However to my mind it was better than making them robots. True free will means allowing them to do anything, otherwise it's not free will if I say they can't do x y and z. All I can do is give them suggestions.

Then I imagined some of my inhabitants eventually making so many bad choices that they suffer. I imagined one of them sitting in his room crying all day long. Of course this is where I come in - why would I let them suffer at all? Can't I intervene? I can, but only to the degree that I am not imposing upon there free will, because to strip him of his history, his behaviors, his story, is to take away his free will. To take away his free will is to annihilate him, and though he is suffering, I love him too much to do that. In fact, their choices and there suffering is their own, and because I do care for these little bastards, I am doing everything in my power to send them love and grace, but I can only change them to the degree which they choose to allow it because that is their free will. Have I cursed them? I don't know, maybe - but to my mind their existence is not so bad, because even while they are suffering, I know that their true nature is the very blank, dark canvas from which they started, which is me, which is an expression of love - in this case simply because I only sought to create them out of joy. I never stop loving him and sending him guidance, and eventually he will let me in. He may give up on me but I never give up on him, so it makes me sad, but I patiently wait. 

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by Arman

[Paulo Barbosa]

Hey Arman,

Even though it hurts to accept your view on free will I guess I buy into it.

It actually comes very close to Allan Watts views on what life fundamentally is (fast forward to 1m:15s): 

Now the million dollar question is: what about animals? Do they have the choice? Can a lion decide not to hurt other animals and start to collect berries?

Thanks!!!

Edited December 19, 2016 by Paulo Barbosa

[Prabhaker]

16 hours ago, Paulo Barbosa said:

Even if suffering can be seen as a matter of choice, why did God not limit it for the sake of a nicer experience?

Death is a certainty, old age is a certainty. These great sufferings are not enough to break your sleep, you want to limit sufferings  for the sake of a nicer experience?

12 hours ago, John Flores said:

My purpose is to be light and to help other people be light as well.

I'm not saying don't help a child in the forest if you find him crying and weeping. But try to understand: your own light is not burning and you start helping others. 

[Leo Gura]

Quote

Even if suffering can be seen as a matter of choice, why did God not limit it for the sake of a nicer experience?

God is INFINITE! Meaning... UNLIMITED!

Do you realize what that means?

God includes INFINITE limits! INFINITE EVERYTHING!

So now... you (an infinitesimal limit of God) is asking God to remove one of its infinite limits, thus becoming less than absolutely infinite!

You see how silly that is?

It's like the number 2 asking infinity to subtract the number 5 because it hates 5.

[Egoisego]

20 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

God has given you freedom , you can create suffering, it is your choice. 

It is a game, you are free to live unconsciously , create the ego, create suffering, start living consciously to end the suffering. It is a game without any purpose. 

very very good said!

 

you can do whatever you want.

 

it will happen

 

 

speaking of god who is a concept.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Edited December 20, 2016 by Egoisego

[Prabhaker]

@Leo Gura

It was @Paulo Barbosa not me.

[Paulo Barbosa]

Hey Leo,

Thank you so much for your input!!!

What you are saying sounds right to me. It's not that I want to change anything. It's just that I need to know how to act.

I thought that this world of duality was all that existed and therefore choosing good and compassion over evil and cynicism would make sense.

But since you published your videos on 5Meo I have been taken (at least theoretically) to a realm of Truth, where values are not opposed and relative to one another anymore.

So, since my question is mainly pragmatic, my confusion remains: Is helping others of any value? Because if God is infinite and allows suffering, who am I to try to make things "right"?

Just like you I want to live the best life I could possibly have. I just need to figure out how!

Thanks for reading!!!

 

[Prabhaker]

8 minutes ago, Paulo Barbosa said:

Is helping others of any value?

 If you want to be happy you will have to help others who surround you to be happy. You can help others only when you have helped yourself, not before it. In fact, people who really need to help themselves always become interested in helping others. That becomes an occupation, and they can forget themselves.

[Paulo Barbosa]

Thank you Prabhaker!

So what you are saying is that I must forget others for the time being and concentrate on my own liberation? And that only after that I will be able to truly help others? 

Or is it that I can still help others (in a more mundane interpretation of the word) as long as I help myself too?

Cheers!

[Prabhaker]

1 minute ago, Paulo Barbosa said:

And that only after that I will be able to truly help others? 

Unless you know how to help others, how can you help others ? Unless you have a silent mind, how can you help others to reach state of silent mind ?

[Paulo Barbosa]

So, it means that all the those causes like poverty alleviation, animal suffering alleviation, etc. are not worth it? 

[Radical Honesty]

@Paulo Barbosa Of course they are—but if you feel kindness toward yourself, you will be much more willing to help those causes.

[Paulo Barbosa]

Hey Radical Honesty,

Thanks for jumping in.

Could you please elaborate on the notion of feeling "kindness toward yourself"?

Thanks