Distinction between emptiness and nothingness

[BipolarGrowth]

How do you distinguish between emptiness and nothingness personally? I find the 7th Jhana (Nothingness) particularly hard to get into also. If anyone has advice on that, I’d appreciate it. 

[OneHandClap]

Emptiness is not a "thing," but rather a quality inherent in all phenomena. Emptiness means empty of self (Svabhava), or self-defining qualities. Nothingness is closer to what it sounds like—an absolute lack of sensory data. The 7th Jhana isn't full-on cessation, but it definitely is characterized by the exclusion of sensory objects in comparison to the lower states. So, in that sense, "emptiness" is really another way of expressing the nature of reality, while nothingness is an immediate description of perception. 

[BipolarGrowth]

33 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

Emptiness is not a "thing," but rather a quality inherent in all phenomena. Emptiness means empty of self (Svabhava), or self-defining qualities. Nothingness is closer to what it sounds like—an absolute lack of sensory data. The 7th Jhana isn't full-on cessation, but it definitely is characterized by the exclusion of sensory objects in comparison to the lower states. So, in that sense, "emptiness" is really another way of expressing the nature of reality, while nothingness is an immediate description of perception. 

I experienced what I considered the 6th Jhana the other night with essentially no perception of objects. Does this sound like 7th Jhana to you? The main time I got to what I consider 7th Jhana, things were very fine and hard to perceive. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by BipolarGrowth

[OneHandClap]

19 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I experienced what I considered the 6th Jhana the other night with essentially no perception of objects. Does this sound like 7th Jhana to you? The main time I got to what I consider 7th Jhana, things were very fine and hard to perceive. 

Depends, I suppose. What were you experiencing in that jhana? As in, awareness of awareness, any sounds, visual perception, etc? 

[Leo Gura]

Stop creating distinctions

[BipolarGrowth]

3 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

Depends, I suppose. What were you experiencing in that jhana? As in, awareness of awareness, any sounds, visual perception, etc? 

If I remember right, I had some relaxing music on. It either strobed a bit as far as when I would notice it at all or remained in the background. Eyes were closed. Pure black in the whole visual field. No color whatsoever. 

[OneHandClap]

1 minute ago, BipolarGrowth said:

If I remember right, I had some relaxing music on. It either strobed a bit as far as when I would notice it at all or remained in the background. Eyes were closed. Pure black in the whole visual field. No color whatsoever. 

When you reached the 5th jhana, how was your awareness of body? Typically there is zero perception of bodily sensations at that level. 

[BipolarGrowth]

5 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

When you reached the 5th jhana, how was your awareness of body? Typically there is zero perception of bodily sensations at that level. 

There were still some sensations, but they were pretty light. It wasn’t a hard 5th Jhana by any means. 

[Fearless_Bum]

@BipolarGrowth if you're playing around with words and distinctions, you're already fucked. 

There's no how either, unless someone here makes something up and you believe it. 

[OneHandClap]

5 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

There were still some sensations, but they were pretty light. It wasn’t a hard 5th Jhana by any means. 

Yeah, it sounds like a lower jhana to me. It can take full-time monks years to hit 5, let alone 6. Take it slow, feel out each one, and try to practice sustaining them for long periods. It will help a lot with moving to the higher ones. 

[RMQualtrough]

There seem to be three types of experience of reality...

1. The mundane typical focus on object out there evolved into humans.

2. The bizarre and unusual peek into the mirror via something to see that consciousness is in fact literally nothingness.

3. And finally the collapse of the distinction.

I found the second to actually be the most shocking, where there was still subject/object divide but I could know and be nothingness.

To me it had more element of logical proof I could bring back than the collapse of distinction.

[Hello from Russia]

It's the same thing. From what I remember, 7th Jhana is about distinction between Nothingness and Somethingness. And in 8th you kinda go beyond this whole thing and find both of these qualities in each other, hence, your perception inverts itself and you break your head in paradox

[The0Self]

23 hours ago, OneHandClap said:

Yeah, it sounds like a lower jhana to me. It can take full-time monks years to hit 5, let alone 6. Take it slow, feel out each one, and try to practice sustaining them for long periods. It will help a lot with moving to the higher ones. 

5th jhana is a very high state for not using substances. As in maybe 1 in 100 people who have experienced both jhana 5 and a profound mystical experience on LSD will say they had a more intense experience from LSD. J5 is ultra mystical, of course not nearly as incredible as the collapse of time which can happen on LSD, or glimpses, but generally orders of magnitude more amazing than what came before it. But 6th and 7th are just a small step up from j5, in terms of the skill required to cultivate them... The big jump in that regard is between jhana 4 and 5, and of course also 0 and 1.

Edited October 21, 2021 by The0Self

[Nahm]

Emptiness refers to the content in the cup while nothingness refers to the true nature of ‘the cup’. But don’t try to bend the cup, that’s impossible. Simply allow it to empty.

[BipolarGrowth]

3 hours ago, The0Self said:

5th jhana is a very high state for not using substances. As in maybe 1 in 100 people who have experienced both jhana 5 and a profound mystical experience on LSD will say they had a more intense experience from LSD. J5 is ultra mystical, of course not nearly as incredible as the collapse of time which can happen on LSD, or glimpses, but generally orders of magnitude more amazing than what came before it. But 6th and 7th are just a small step up from j5, in terms of the skill required to cultivate them... The big jump in that regard is between jhana 4 and 5, and of course also 0 and 1.

I never said I wasn’t using technology. 

I’ve realized that the hard formless aspect of J5 & J6 that people use to characterize them as actually being fully formless are not the most important part of the experience. I don’t have enough experience of J7 to say whether it follows this as well. I’m not good at cultivating the formless aspects of these intentionally. I have had a number of experiences which triggered J5 and especially J6 for me to show me the formless aspect of the experience too. I really enjoy the aspect of boundless space & consciousness while still having some form. It’s one of the most accessible interesting states for me. Within a couple seconds I can amplify and tap into the sensations of space and see it ultimately fall away in a sense and become boundless, and within 5-10 make the shift to feeling more connected to where it matches what I found in my hard J6 experiences just with form being there or not being there not affecting the designation of “boundless consciousness” still being true. 
 

I’m still interested in the hard formless aspect of Jhana, but I don’t look at Jhana as worth pursuing in the typical Buddhist way of doing them in a sequence for hours. J8 for sure and it might even be said J9 came to me effortlessly doing spirituality on my terms. There are many roads to these different outcomes. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by BipolarGrowth

[Carl-Richard]

When something is empty, there is nothing in it.

[Mu_]

17 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I never said I wasn’t using technology. 

I’ve realized that the hard formless aspect of J5 & J6 that people use to characterize them as actually being fully formless are not the most important part of the experience. I don’t have enough experience of J7 to say whether it follows this as well. I’m not good at cultivating the formless aspects of these intentionally. I have had a number of experiences which triggered J5 and especially J6 for me to show me the formless aspect of the experience too. I really enjoy the aspect of boundless space & consciousness while still having some form. It’s one of the most accessible interesting states for me. Within a couple seconds I can amplify and tap into the sensations of space and see it ultimately fall away in a sense and become boundless, and within 5-10 make the shift to feeling more connected to where it matches what I found in my hard J6 experiences just with form being there or not being there not affecting the designation of “boundless consciousness” still being true. 
 

I’m still interested in the hard formless aspect of Jhana, but I don’t look at Jhana as worth pursuing in the typical Buddhist way of doing them in a sequence for hours. J8 for sure and it might even be said J9 came to me effortlessly doing spirituality on my terms. There are many roads to these different outcomes. 

From my experience with this stuff, at a certain point it becomes impossible and irrelevant to make distinctions, since none of them were ever there in a sense, and still aren't, lol.

But to see this, I'm not sure I could describe, nor could it be described, but i'll try none the less for fun.

The ability to make a distinction insinuates a someone there making distinctions of this or that, jahna this jahna that.  However this supposed character is under no direct control, nor an accurate determiner of any such matters, and to see this, is to see the inability to know something (this understanding can be gotten in many apparent ways, and logical connections, but none the less, it will eventually be seen that "......".  It can be a real bummer experience, because this sense of self/Self that felt it knew stuff and knew things, can become real depressed and bummed to realize it could never know and never knew anything, and what it felt like it knew, was just essentially "....."  This can happen pleasantly, or what feels like a long drawn out fight of self-independence.

This self will argue that it knows, since its thinking and feeling it knows, however the only real truth if inquired into this idea is that there is only something happening, not necessarily the narrative this self voice believes.

self experience, voice, thought, feeling, sense, experiences, spirituality, "god word", jahna's, meditation, enlightenment, only prove existence; the labels themselves aren't actually there or connected to what they feel and seem to. 

The problem with language and typing is generally it comes across that each of these words "experience", "voice", "thought", "feeling", "sense", "god", "enlightenment", are actually things, or phenomena or non-states or non-selfs, that are objectively and independently real, but there really isnt such, the overall happening is literally "....mystery....", and yet intuitively an understanding of such comes and goes.....

[lmfao]

I talk to my self, self, I think I need help, help. So what if I'm not not not not okayyyyyyy

[BipolarGrowth]

48 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

From my experience with this stuff, at a certain point it becomes impossible and irrelevant to make distinctions, since none of them were ever there in a sense, and still aren't, lol.

But to see this, I'm not sure I could describe, nor could it be described, but i'll try none the less for fun.

The ability to make a distinction insinuates a someone there making distinctions of this or that, jahna this jahna that.  However this supposed character is under no direct control, nor an accurate determiner of any such matters, and to see this, is to see the inability to know something (this understanding can be gotten in many apparent ways, and logical connections, but none the less, it will eventually be seen that "......".  It can be a real bummer experience, because this sense of self/Self that felt it knew stuff and knew things, can become real depressed and bummed to realize it could never know and never knew anything, and what it felt like it knew, was just essentially "....."  This can happen pleasantly, or what feels like a long drawn out fight of self-independence.

This self will argue that it knows, since its thinking and feeling it knows, however the only real truth if inquired into this idea is that there is only something happening, not necessarily the narrative this self voice believes.

self experience, voice, thought, feeling, sense, experiences, spirituality, "god word", jahna's, meditation, enlightenment, only proof existence, not that the labels of such are what they appear and claim to be.  The problem with language and typing is generally it comes across that each of these words "experience", "voice", "thought", "feeling", "sense", "god", "enlightenment", are actually things, or phenomena or non-states or non-selfs, that are objectively and independently real, but there really isnt such, the overall happening is literally "....mystery....", and yet intuitively an understanding of such comes and goes.....

I see a lot of value in “….mystery….” as a pointer. Even “present moment experience” implodes on itself as soon as it’s examined. Why is present moment experience good or true? Well, let me “leave” it to tell you why it’s so great ? And yeah, I get that you can’t necessarily leave it, but you can only speak about it by pulling on past/future. 
 

Experience does run off distinctions as much as it runs off a lack of distinction. They’re both the same thing which is neither a thing nor a non-thing. 

[Nahm]

@BipolarGrowth

Those are thoughts of nothing, which is precisely what’s experienced, and precisely what’s emptied. The one ‘having awakenings’, ‘J 5’s etc’, is not, by admittance & definition, awake. Yet is none the less ‘teaching awakening’. It’s really just dishonestly tricking people.  Manipulation is learned, it’s conditioning, it’s emptied not utilized ambitiously for spirituality, to ‘be awake’ / ‘have awakenings’. It’s not about convincing yourself you are something, or convincing others ‘how awake you are’, it’s about actually being wakefulness. But don’t take my word for it of course. 

The relinquishment of thought attachment must come first, otherwise all the teaching is, is thought attachment, and all ‘the teacher’ is actually, is thoughts, thus the teaching is actually that of the very separate self that one looks toward ‘the teachings’ for, to liberate of. Try to think of what could be more misleading to see what’s being said. When at a loss to, one’s getting it, so to speak.