Experiencer or No Expereincer?

[WokeBloke]

2 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

That's the joke... nobody. There is pain, there is heat, there is movement... that's it.

Tell me, where is the experiencer located? What are its qualities? 

Wherever the body is where the one experiencer is. The experiencer has no fixed qualities. Ever changing.

How do you know there is pain?

Edited October 19, 2021 by WokeBloke

[OneHandClap]

Just now, WokeBloke said:

Wherever the body is where the one experiencer is. 

How do you know there is pain?

It's just talking in circles at this point. Buddhism has spent thousands of years dissecting the exact questions you're asking, and has provided solid answers (backed up by experiential findings) in the forms of countless texts, teachings, and koans. If you're going to ask these questions related to Buddhist metaphysics, but not put in the iota of time to investigate the teachings themselves, there is no point. The answer you're trying to get me to say is "Ah, of course, because I feel pain. A self feels pain!" But that is not what is going on. Again, look into the Bahiya sutra. 

[Tim R]

@WokeBloke

I'm saying that experience and experiencer are literally identical, completely, 100% no difference whatsoever. It's one. 

The visual field IS you. You're not experiencing the visual field, you ARE it. You are looking at yourself. All sounds that are going on, you're not hearing them. You ARE them. 

All experiences are not "experienced by you". You are the experience.

Go to YouTube, put on your headphones and look for "Om chanting" or "singing bowl". And then close your eyes and listen. Just listen. And then tell me, can you hear the hearer? Are "you hearing" sound? Or is there only sound? Is there only you? Listen closely, very intently.

Don't you realize that there is no boundary between you and the sound? I invite you to find the boundary between the sound and yourself

 

[WokeBloke]

3 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

It's just talking in circles at this point. Buddhism has spent thousands of years dissecting the exact questions you're asking, and has provided solid answers (backed up by experiential findings) in the forms of countless texts, teachings, and koans. If you're going to ask these questions related to Buddhist metaphysics, but not put in the iota of time to investigate the teachings themselves, there is no point. The answer you're trying to get me to say is "Ah, of course, because I feel pain. A self feels pain!" But that is not what is going on. Again, look into the Bahiya sutra. 

Buddhism says there is no one that experiences the pain. In my opinion this is just you saying you don't feel the pain. Just because you deny your experience doesn't mean it's not happening.

[Nahm]

@WokeBloke

See if a separation can be found between what is seen, the seeing, the knowing of the seeing, and the awareness of. Inspect until no question remains. Words, as communication, label but never define. So there’s no suggestion there are these separate things, only the invitation to inspect rather than conceptualize. 

[WokeBloke]

@Tim R

 

Would you agree there is a distinction between body and computer? 

The body is experiencing and the computer is being experienced? Computer is created by body. I am not a computer. I build computer. Only that which is experiencing is I in my opinion.

Is sound experiencing? No. Is thought experiencing? These are being experienced. What do you think?

 

 

[OneHandClap]

4 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

Buddhism says there is no one that experiences the pain. In my opinion this is just you saying you don't feel the pain. Just because you deny your experience doesn't mean it's not happening.

The trouble is that you are mistaking what "no one" means here. It simply means there is no center to the pain that can be called a soul, individual self, et cetera. It is not saying pain never occurs. The question is, who or what could an experiencer possibly be? To put this in terms used by people like Culadasa, you are sticking at the "witness" stage. But there is a stage beyond this. 

[WokeBloke]

2 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

The trouble is that you are mistaking what "no one" means here. It simply means there is no center to the pain that can be called a soul, individual self, et cetera. It is not saying pain never occurs. The question is, who or what could an experiencer possibly be? To put this in terms used by people like Culadasa, you are sticking at the "witness" stage. But there is a stage beyond this. 

Well yes indeed that is the question. What the hell is the experiencer. How does one have experiences? It seems the body is the center of all the experiences. Why do you think the body is not the center of experience?

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by WokeBloke

[Tim R]

3 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

Would you agree there is a distinction between body and computer? 

No, there isn't. 

@WokeBloke My man, you're speculating too much?

[OneHandClap]

3 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

Well yes indeed that is the question. What the hell is the experiencer. How does one have experiences? It seems the body is the center of all the experiences. Why do you think the body is not the center of experience?

 

Because it merely appears that way. Again, I understand this is a very, very convincing illusion, but there is no real "center" to be found. If there was a center, you would be able to point to it and say "Look, this is me, this is who is experiencing!" But no matter how much you look, there is no center. Nor are there any edges. Phenomena are appearing and being known from within. 

[Tim R]

Is there a dividing line between the black and the white field? And if so, what color is it? Black or white? 

[WokeBloke]

1 minute ago, Tim R said:

No, there isn't. 

@WokeBloke My man, you're speculating too much?

You are saying there is no difference between a computer and a body???

That's just absolutely absurd. Are you trolling or is that your actual belief that you hold?

[Tim R]

Just now, WokeBloke said:

You are saying there is no difference between a computer and a body???

That's just absolutely absurd. Are you trolling or is that your actual belief that you hold?

Ahh careful. I'm not saying "they're" the same either.  Either there is computer and body, in which case we pretend that there is a difference. Or, we realize that we are only pretending that there is a difference, in which case there are neither computer nor body anymore. 

[WokeBloke]

2 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Is there a dividing line between the black and the white field? And if so, what color is it? Black or white? 

No but there is a point at which black becomes white. 

There is a "point" where the human body ends and the computer begins.

[Tim R]

Just now, WokeBloke said:

No but there is a point at which black becomes white. 

Whether you call it point or line makes no difference. I might as well ask you then; what color is this point? Black or white? Because it has to be either one, it can't be both. And if it has no color, then there is no point. So what is it?

[OneHandClap]

Just now, Tim R said:

Whether you call it point or line makes no difference. I might as well ask you then; what color is this point? Black or white? Because it has to be either one, it can't be both. And if it has no color, then there is no point. So what is it?

 I can hear the reincarnation of Joshu in this post. 

[WokeBloke]

1 minute ago, Tim R said:

Whether you call it point or line makes no difference. I might as well ask you then; what color is this point? Black or white? Because it has to be either one, it can't be both. And if it has no color, then there is no point. So what is it?

There is no line there is just a black box next to a white box with no border. The two boxes are completely different sort of like body and computer.

[WokeBloke]

6 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Ahh careful. I'm not saying "they're" the same either.  Either there is computer and body, in which case we pretend that there is a difference. Or, we realize that we are only pretending that there is a difference, in which case there are neither computer nor body anymore. 

It's not pretend though. The computer can't move or talk. The body can. The computer is not pretending to be a computer. It is a computer. It was made a certain way by human beings and is in no way similar to a human body.

[Tim R]

1 minute ago, WokeBloke said:

There is no line there is just a black box next to a white box with no border. 

No boundary = Identity 

[WokeBloke]

2 minutes ago, Tim R said:

No boundary = Identity 

Can you please elaborate?