Nihilism and Spiral Dynamics

[ZahariaNicu]

In which stage of the Spiral Dynamics model do nihilism or nihilists writers or thinkers fit in?

Because it takes some revelations about the nature of reality to get to that point, i would put them somewhere above orange, maybe Green or even Yellow

but i would like to know your opinion on this matter. 

[Nahm]

@ZahariaNicu

Nihilism, or a nihilist, would find spiral dynamics information & any values therein meaningless. 

[ZahariaNicu]

@Nahm That is understood. The question was from an outside perspective about people who are nihilists through their work of thoughts. 

Im giving it as an example, the philosopher Emil Cioran who wrote over 20 books on this theme  of life.

[ZahariaNicu]

@BenG I get your point. 
Nihilistic thoughts might appear at Purple or Red stage (indigenous people/in tribes) but they still give it a meaning, as it would happen at blue or orange. I would assume, the lower the stage the more difficult it is to live with those kind of thoughts?

[Gesundheit2]

Nihilism appears exclusively at Orange. It's impossible to be nihilistic (or have a problem with meaninglessness) without the materialist paradigm.

[Carl-Richard]

Nihilism is the first response when the purpose of the transcendent dimension is undermined by the Cartesian-Newtonian paradigm (the transition from dogmatism to rationality), so it first comes online in low-Orange. It can get countered as early as mid-Orange through mental gymnastics or linger all the way into the beginning of the transrational realm at Green or Tier 2.

[Terell Kirby]

Healthy nihilism emerges at Stage Green, assuming the person is mentally stable.

It essentially is the deconstruction of conventional and/or mainstream ways of thinking and living.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Terell Kirby

[kever]

Like Terell stated above, if I remember correctly, nihilism is stage green. Together with post-modernism and relativity. 

[ZahariaNicu]

@Carl-Richard @Gesundheit2 @Terell Kirby @kever I appreciate all of your points. 

It does feel like Nihilism it is encountered through Orange and it gets diminished as you evolve into Green, a more relativistic stage.

[Heinrich Faust]

I'd say, nihilism emerges from the emptiness one can feel when one is torn out of a collective stage, i.e. mainly at red and orange, but also at yellow in an advanced manner. Classical nihilism (e.g. Friedrich Nietzsche) is stage orange.

[Carl-Richard]

On 18.10.2021 at 11:35 PM, Heinrich Faust said:

I'd say, nihilism emerges from the emptiness one can feel when one is torn out of a collective stage, i.e. mainly at red and orange, but also at yellow in an advanced manner. Classical nihilism (e.g. Friedrich Nietzsche) is stage orange.

The level of purpose that arises in reaction to the chaos of Red (namely Blue) requires a certain ability to abstract over space and time. The Purple sense of purpose and the Red sense of self-assertion is more embedded in "the now", in immediate impulses, and nihilism is the recognition of a lack of an abstract framework of purpose, something which doesn't arise before Blue.

Blue is able to see outside of itself in time and space, beyond its immediate living conditions and desires and into the future, into the transcendent ideal dimension of God, the Law, family, virtue. Purple's sense of purpose is explicit and embodied (the immediately felt connection to the tribe), and it's the same with Red's reaction to it (the immediately felt egocentric impulses). Blue's sense of purpose is implicit and abstract: "me as a separate individual have to work to fullfil my purpose as a servant of God, as a lawful citizen, as a responsible family man, as a virtuous person".

When a person evolves his ability to think abstractly and not merely adhere to a dogmatic construct but is able to employ self-consistent hypothetical deduction, then Orange rationality is born, and the Blue dogmas are no longer sufficient for providing a sense of abstract purpose. The way out is to reclaim the embodied purpose of the pre-rational Purple through the trans-rational domain: non-dogmatic mysticism.

[kever]

@ZahariaNicu I'd say give Leo's video on stage green and nihilism a look. Think he discusses it there. And I follow you when you say it seems like nihilism fits in orange (being materialistic, robbing life of its soul), but I think it also fits in green because that's when people question the truth of what many call objective reality (which brings us to postmodernism again)

[RedLine]

Nihilism is literally the definition of Turquoise.

 

 

[Carl-Richard]

35 minutes ago, RedLine said:

Nihilism is literally the definition of Turquoise.

Turquoise isn't necessarily mystical/non-dual, but it's radically holistic. In either case, in non-duality there is no difference between nihilism and non-nihilism, and in holism, there is always an alternative to nihilsm (it doesn't define the whole).

[RedLine]

45 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Turquoise isn't necessarily mystical/non-dual, but it's radically holistic. In either case, in non-duality there is no difference between nihilism and non-nihilism, and in holism, there is always an alternative to nihilsm (it doesn't define the whole).

Turquoise are those that don´t have preference because they think the concept of preference itself does not make sense, so no perspective is truer than any other. Basically you deeply feel that anything in the relative level is true, even suffer. In the forum all people that you that but in practice they believe in stuff.

 

[Carl-Richard]

On 19.10.2021 at 8:49 AM, Carl-Richard said:

The level of purpose that arises in reaction to the chaos of Red (namely Blue) requires a certain ability to abstract over space and time. The Purple sense of purpose and the Red sense of self-assertion is more embedded in "the now", in immediate impulses, and nihilism is the recognition of a lack of an abstract framework of purpose, something which doesn't arise before Blue.

Blue is able to see outside of itself in time and space, beyond its immediate living conditions and desires and into the future, into the transcendent ideal dimension of God, the Law, family, virtue. Purple's sense of purpose is explicit and embodied (the immediately felt connection to the tribe), and it's the same with Red's reaction to it (the immediately felt egocentric impulses). Blue's sense of purpose is implicit and abstract: "me as a separate individual have to work to fullfil my purpose as a servant of God, as a lawful citizen, as a responsible family man, as a virtuous person".

When a person evolves his ability to think abstractly and not merely adhere to a dogmatic construct but is able to employ self-consistent hypothetical deduction, then Orange rationality is born, and the Blue dogmas are no longer sufficient for providing a sense of abstract purpose. The way out is to reclaim the embodied purpose of the pre-rational Purple through the trans-rational domain: non-dogmatic mysticism.

Here is a framework for understanding the differences between the types of cognitive operations I'm talking about:

Purple and Red cognition resides somewhere between stage 1-6 (up to "preoperational"). Blue resides between stage 7-9 (up to "abstract"). Orange resides at formal and monosystematic operations (10-11).

Might as well add the next stages: Green is at stage 12 (metasystematic) and Tier 2 is at Stage 13-14 (paradigmatic and cross-paradigmatic). Transrationality is unlocked earliest at the metasystematic stage (but may be unlocked later as well).