Do Murderers Deserve to Die?

[TheAlchemist]

I understand this topic can be approached from other angles than just the punishment mindset. But for anyone who holds the view that punishing people is a useful way to make society more peaceful, consider this: 

 

"Two Questions That Reveal the Limitations of Punishment

 

Two questions help us see why we are unlikely to get what we want by using punishment to change people’s behavior.

The first question is:

What do I want this person to do that’s different from what he or she is currently doing?

If we ask only this first question, punishment may seem effective, because the threat or exercise of punitive force may well influence someone’s behavior.

However, with the second question, it becomes evident that punishment isn’t likely to work:

What do I want this person’s reasons to be for doing what I’m asking?"

-Marshall B. Rosenberg

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by TheAlchemist

[Porphyry Fedotov]

On 10/18/2021 at 3:49 AM, Leo Gura said:

I am not suggesting that the killing of a murderer is to be done as vengeance. It is done to conserve system-wide resources which are better used elsewhere. The money we spend feeding and housing a murderer for 40 years is better invested in education, child care, healthcare, reducing poverty, etc.

Sounds like a scarcity mindset to me...

[billiesimon]

6 hours ago, MFateh said:

@lmfao

I am not saying that they are not nice or that they don't have a rich life. I am just saying that what they have committed by ending a rich life of someone else, sadistically or for a silly reason, deserves a proper punishment. Even if it's not killing them, I think they deserve to have most of their rights taken away. They don't deserve to enjoy something they've taken away from others. 

I am aware of this, too. But I don't think this is something that might avert me from my stance. Because, in the end, if I am going to forgive murderers from the fear of getting killed myself for committing a murder then it's going to be a lacking perspective filled with fear. 

Again, if you think my stance is regressive and lacking in compassion/sympathy then I would love to change it. But I want to see your perspectives first to know better.

The perspective is that those people could have easily been me. 

I know what they feel. 

I have never hurt anyone, I've always been nice and progressive. But I have been subjected to a lot of trauma, bullying, divorce, abusive friends, abusive bosses etc. A lot. Truly a lot. 

 

I'm finishing therapy, and yoga and self inquiry have helped me so much to remain the same nice person i've always been. 

 

But i can assure you:

There's a part inside of me that is so angry and furious for what they have done to me that it is thirsty to kill. Literally thirsty to kill.

And it's NOT my fault. I have cried rivers to heal and quieten this trauma. 

 

Am I a nice and conscious person?

All people tell me so. 

 

Yet the line that could have led me to become an evil beast was so close... 

Do you get it? 

 

 

You are nice only because you got lucky. You don't know what it feels like to work you ass off every day to remain conscious and caring after what i've endured. 

Suffering is the greatest teacher. 

Killers already have suffered much. Let this planet become a warmer and kinder place. 

Please.

Yet, I love you too and want you to feel love for the unconscious ones. 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by billiesimon

[MFateh]

@billiesimon

I am glad that you're doing better now. Really happy for you ?. I think I might consider this issue more deeply. I will try to understand what murders driven by jealousy and mere joy of killing are caused by. It's going to be hard to accept all and give everyone a second chance, but if it's for the good of the society then it's okay I guess. 

 

[Zega]

On 10/17/2021 at 3:28 PM, Leo Gura said:

Actually it feels pretty fair to me for a murderer to die. What's unfair is paying to house them for 40 years and putting up with their bullshit.

The problem tho is that some people are wrongfully convicted of murder.

We should probably try to rehabilitate the ones we can. And then maybe the ones who can't can die.

I would issue an ultimatum like: you got 10 years to repent and get your shit together and rehabilitate yourself into a useful and loving member of society. Here are the resources you need to do that. And if you don't, you're getting lethal injection. It's up to you.

Some people are beyond any kind of rehabilitation, but I believe this to me a small minority. 

If you have someone like the killer form No Country for Old Men, then yeah, maybe ethnicization is the only answer. Aside from giving them a lobotomy (Which may not even work) I don't see what else can work.

Everyone else in the penal system should be (attempt to be) rehabilitated and reintegrated. This will save money long term when you aren't housing convicts for 40+ years. There's still the matter of what to do with the rest...

Do we euthanize them, hold them, or put them on treadmills that help power the city

I think murder by the state is generally bad practice but could be used in extreme cases.

[billiesimon]

4 hours ago, MFateh said:

@billiesimon

I am glad that you're doing better now. Really happy for you ?. I think I might consider this issue more deeply. I will try to understand what murders driven by jealousy and mere joy of killing are caused by. It's going to be hard to accept all and give everyone a second chance, but if it's for the good of the society then it's okay I guess. 

 

Thank you ?

[Egzoset]

Animals kill for their own survival, quite usually by EATING their prey.  So, anyone supporting human assassination should at the very least get ready to delegate such hideous role to somebody else who'll want to be paid, or risk having to assume it oneself...

 

Preferably on another planet, please.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Egzoset

[Guru Peter Jordanson]

Depends on the situation.

Heard that if you kill a human prematurely the he will mock others from the astral plane. If the person is suppose to live to 64 and gets executed at 45 then he will be mobbing around with others for 19 years. As the physical body is dead but not the other bodies (astral,pranic, kama etc.). If this is true, then the wisest choice would be to let them die their own death in a cell or rehabilitate them. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Guru Peter Jordanson

[Egzoset]

Never hungry enough, lucky me!

[happyhappy]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:09 PM, MFateh said:

y problems is with sadistic killers, those who just enjoy torturing people, and also with murderers driven by jealousy, hatred and other similar drives. Isn't it unfair for them to continue living their lives after they took what they're enjoying away from others? What I am saying is that sadistic killers should be executed and murderers driven by jealousy or hatred should be killed too if they show no signs of remorse and regret. I mean, they have achieved what they wanted. Right? They have gotten rid of the person they hated and now they get to live albeit only after a small period in prison. It makes no sense for me to see them enjoying their lives after they have hurt others on their way. 

IMHO, it is what it is...

the way that society and civilization is designed and constructed is to always keep the common mass safe. thus, killing is automatically rejected from the society's standards. it is counter productive for sustaining the social matrix. 

it has always happened and will always happen. that is why most of the ppl you meet will demonize it.

even a stage red tribal group will demonize killing inside the tribe according to their moral system...whether the accused deserve to die or not depends up on several relative factors... therefore, a general answer is not helping as i like to think about it...

[Ineedanswers]

@happyhappy browski at the end of the day wouldn’t you say no one “deserves” to die? Or maybe they deserve to die,but we should not look down on terrorists murderers,robbers,(some srilankan ministers?)etc right? Since free will doesn’t exist there is no individual entity responsible for these egregious acts neh? The reason some people cause suffering is because they were unfortunate enough to have a very stage red/low blue upbringing due to  harsh survival conditions don’t you think? Eg-the church bombings that happened last year were a result of people being born into a very stage red/blue part of our country right?

[trenton]

I think when it comes to rapists only the most extreme cases should get the death penalty.  I know a story about a man who kidnapped three young girls when they were in grade school and repeatedly raped them for decades.  one day they managed to escape when a man heard them screaming and he broke down the door.  The girls had been so broken that they eventually stopped caring that were routinely being raped.  A similar thing happens to people who are torture for extended periods.  If a person does something like this, then they are probably beyond salvation and should be put to death.  No amount of punishment could make up for something like this.

The only problem with this argument is that some people become school shooters because of brain damage and they lose the desire to kill dozens of children when the brain damage is corrected.  This kind of insanity defense could be used for somebody who repeatedly raped someone for decades.  How are we supposed to account for insanity in these cases?

[happyhappy]

12 hours ago, Ineedanswers said:

browski at the end of the day wouldn’t you say no one “deserves” to die? Or maybe they deserve to die

this is just my opinion and it can be flawed as well. but as i think,

whether they deserve to die or not depends primarily on the culture and the kind of society they fall on to..it is all relative...in an absolute perspective, nothing matters! as it is....

@Ineedanswers

12 hours ago, Ineedanswers said:

Eg-the church bombings that happened last year were a result of people being born into a very stage red/blue part of our country right?

true!  100% brooo.... extreme BLUE at its height!

[Consept]

I disagree with @Leo Gura here, I wouldnt say a murderer necessarily deserves to die, the issue ive got with crime and punishment is that most murderers arent just completely fine and then decide to murder someone, there is usually complex psychological or environmental conditions that lead to this. A quick example is if you grow up in lets say the roughest part of chicago into a family that dont really care about you and end up getting involved in gangs for your initial survival and then follow a path that leads to you killing someone, you 100% wouldnt have done that if you grew up in different circumstances. Its easy to condemn someone like that if your circumstances have been growing up in the suburbs, loving family etc etc. 

Ultimately its our society that allows this disparity or at least is responsible for it in the same way as a business owner is responsible for what happens in their business. Therefore it seems very callous as a government to initially punish someone by putting them in a bad situation and then end their life because they did something in accordance to that bad situation.  (im aware people kill who are not in a bad situation but im just making an overall point). 

Having said that, yes if someone is dangerous to society they should be removed from society until they have been rehabilitated and if thats not possible then they shouldnt come back into society. But either way its on the government to foot the bill. Keep in mind the government could switch spending from punishment to prevention, there are many proven ways to do this, decriminalising drugs like in portugal, investment in poorer areas, youth clubs, mentors for young people etc etc. If the government spends lots of money on punishment and not much on prevention then that is just bad management on the part and they cant just kill those problems away. 

[happyhappy]

On 10/25/2021 at 5:47 PM, Consept said:

 I wouldnt say a murderer necessarily deserves to die, the issue ive got with crime and punishment is that most murderers arent just completely fine and then decide to murder someone, there is usually complex psychological or environmental conditions that lead to this. A quick example is if you grow up in lets say the roughest part of chicago into a family that dont really care about you and end up getting involved in gangs for your initial survival and then follow a path that leads to you killing someone, you 100% wouldnt have done that if you grew up in different circumstances. Its easy to condemn someone like that if your circumstances have been growing up in the suburbs, loving family etc etc. 

true true.... it is like the  "The Joker 2019 " though inside the city of Gotham, it is an astounding depiction of such personalities...

if I were born in to his circumstances, my  actions wouldn't be much different....yet , we got at least some amount of free will to transcend the things that happen to us. we still got the will to choose our REACTION. 

[Consept]

25 minutes ago, happyhappy said:

true true.... it is like the  "The Joker 2019 " though inside the city of Gotham, it is an astounding depiction of such personalities...

if I were born in to his circumstances, my  actions wouldn't be much different....yet , we got at least some amount of free will to transcend the things that happen to us. we still got the will to choose our REACTION. 

Yeah its an age old debate of in terms of whther you truly have free will or if everythings determined to some extent. 

I heard an interesting fact today listening to an audio book, they said if you take 2 brothers that have the same upbringing, if one becomes self made rich the other one is also likely to become self made rich, its actually more likely than them having a similar height. 

But also to your point, your ability to even be aware of being able to transcend is also determined on the way your brain is, your upbringing etc etc. You could grow up with a mother who teaches you about self actualisation or not even as specific just teaches you different things that lead to you transcending. Its hard to put free will in the equation as much as we might want to, there are just so many factors. Yeah Joker is a great example as well, if Bruce Wayne didnt have the upbringing he had he couldve very well turned into the Joker

[happyhappy]

21 minutes ago, Consept said:

I heard an interesting fact today listening to an audio book, they said if you take 2 brothers that have the same upbringing, if one becomes self made rich the other one is also likely to become self made rich, its actually more likely than them having a similar height. 

oh wow...that's a real something to consider ...so you seem to be  basically swinging the pendulum towards Determinism ...

 

24 minutes ago, Consept said:

its hard to put free will in the equation as much as we might want to, there are just so many factors

yup! many factors indeed.. though I would say we have 0 will in an absolute sense, I personally  believe we got a limited free will in the relative sense

[Loba]

No, rehab them or lock them up.  Don't murder for murder, that makes no sense.  

"Let's stop murder by murdering."

Like... what?

[Breakingthewall]

On 18/10/2021 at 1:14 AM, PurpleTree said:

should a rapist be raped?

No, but sentence him to death maybe yes. Let's see, here we are all going to die, and to spend 35 years in jail, and die there alone, locked, the rapist saves him and society saves him. Killing someone is hard, but keeping them locked up for 40 years is even harder. Premeditated murder and rape: bye guys. nothing happens! We only save you a few very boring and sad years

[Preety_India]

I'm very conflicted on this subject. 

I don't know what the right way to kill a person would be. A few days ago I watched a video of a botched execution and it made me vomit and sick to my stomach. 

Since then my opinion on the death penalty has radically changed. It's not as easy I had thought earlier. 

Now it feels as though even death penalty is another murder. 

But of course murderers and rapists need to be punished in some form. Keeping them in jails and prisons on taxpayers dollars also seems to be a bad idea. Yet there is no comprehensive approach to this. 

I am not sure what can create a sense of justice for the victim's family. 

For the time being, life imprisonment seems to be the only option.