Do Murderers Deserve to Die?

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Some rapists perhaps.

Would you also inject the poison into a murderer/rapist etc. or press the button yourself?

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura Dangerous pedos should be killed too. Specifically child molesters.

Pedos are like born that way or something. differences.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Thought Art

[ChadT]

I have no moral objections to the death penalty for certain crimes.  My issue with the death penalty, is trusting our justice system to administer.  

[Ineedanswers]

@Leo Gura is it possible to get to such a high/unbiased/selfless level of consciousness that you (the ego) enjoy/get pleasure from being tortured/raped skinned alive etc? 

[Thought Art]

@Ineedanswers Wouldn't that be a bias?

[Gili Trawangan]

The mere possibility of wrongful convictions (which are historically demonstrable) is enough to discard the death penalty altogether.

The financial argument doesn't resonate with me at all, it's not like we can stop building prisons, we still need them for all kinds of criminals.

[Rilles]

 

[Paulus Amadeus]

If you really want to save money for society, you want to invest in reducing the amount of trauma people receive during their childhood. This way many murderers won't become murderers in the first place. 

Some ideas to do that are: 

- increasing the minimum wage -> low-income parents will be less stressed, making it less likely that they heavily mess up their kids. 

- teach yoga and meditation in school -> will allow kids to feel more calm and centered, and start dealing with trauma from an early age. 

- make therapy widely available -> will allow parents, also low-income ones, to deal with issues before they transfer them to their children. 

- make online high quality free courses available for how to raise kids the right way -> would obviously cause a lot of backlash from right-wingers, but could make a massive difference if people actually were open to the teachings in such courses.  

- pay teachers a higher wage, and hire more of them -> this way you'd have less kids per classroom, and teachers would be less stressed, so they would have more time and energy to help the kids out. 

I could think of a couple more ideas, and I'm probably missing some very effective ones here. 

I think that every dollar you'd spend on policies like this, you'd save a 10-fold later. Plus you save millions of people of incredible amounts of suffering. 

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Paulus Amadeus

[HypnoticMagician]

Depends on why they have commited murder.

[Harlen Kelly]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Nice strawman.

It is indeed a strawman but not in your favor, it's a strawman because cutting people's hands is not remotely callous enough compared to killing a person. So there you have it. 

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I would issue an ultimatum like: you got 10 years to repent and get your shit together and rehabilitate yourself into a useful and loving member of society. Here are the resources you need to do that. And if you don't, you're getting lethal injection. It's up to you.

This is a farcical proposition to say the least, there are countries that have already implemented the most robust rehabilitation process in their prisons successfully, maybe read about what actually has been proven to work instead of making assumptions.  

Edited October 18, 2021 by Harlen Kelly

[Rilles]

6 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

cutting thieves hands of would also be a pretty neat idea

Lets bring back public executions while were at it! Lets the kids watch!

[Gesundheit2]

Murder itself is not the actual problem. Rather, it's a symptom of much deeper systemic problems.

It's an exquisite example of society thinking backwards, which is why it will never get solved without the proper social fixes.

And btw, the biggest criminals are not the individual murderers. They're the politicians, and the people who support them.

[Kensho]

10 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Would you also inject the poison into a murderer/rapist etc. or press the button yourself?

Personally I would press the button that would inject 5-MeO-DMT intravenously, several times for each case. 

[PurpleTree]

9 hours ago, Gili Trawangan said:

The financial argument doesn't resonate with me at all, it's not like we can stop building prisons, we still need them for all kinds of criminals.

Yea that's a terrible argument imo. Killing people because of money? That might be even worse than for revenge or equally bad.

2 hours ago, Kensho said:

Personally I would press the button that would inject 5-MeO-DMT intravenously, several times for each case. 

now you're thinking 

[lmfao]

@MFateh what is my opinion on this? I have one, and you're gathering those, despite the fact those are irrelevant to metaphysics. 

My regular "common sense" is something like this. If a family member or friend of the murdered individual took justice into their own hands and killed the murderer, who can rightfully object? Only another family member or friend of the individual murdered. 

To who is this issue most impactful, and who are the people entangled by this event?

>Someone who was having as rich of a life as me, you and everyone else? 

As far as my opinion goes, I'm inclined to believe that bitterness over this is a pseudo emotion, unless you were acquainted with the person who was murdered 

Perhaps your circle of concern and sadness is "genuinely greater" (this enters territory I won't prod/question) than I presume, either way I can't prove or disprove this, and I'll have to put my hands up if you say so. But I won't believe you and will prod it anyway 

--

It's very easy to play Devil's advocate to worries you have with murderers not being punished. 

On 17/10/2021 at 5:35 PM, MFateh said:

I watched a video of Leo called "What if Reality is Nothing but Perspective?", and from what he said about understanding all perspectives in the process of accumulating love, it seems like one should not wish death for the relative worst of human beings, including murderers.

So I want to ask, isn't it unfair for a murderer to continue living in this life and enjoying it some way or another after he took it away from someone else? Someone who was having as rich of a life as me, you and everyone else? Keep in mind that I am not talking about the financial or murder rate side of the capital punishment. I am only talking about this "moral" side. 

It would be unfair if morality existed, which is most definitely on the table for you to seriously question if you're considering absolutes

Morality is absolutely imaginary 

So pick what you're doing, delving into opinion or metaphysics. Has this computed for you?

Why not? Lmao

Edited October 18, 2021 by lmfao

[billiesimon]

I've read too much nonsense and regressive opinions here.

 

People who kill or get into crime are nice people as everyone else.

It's not their decision. They are completely unconscious and subjected to trauma.

Your "civil and educated" human life is not more worthy that theirs.

They need to be rehabilitated and healed from their trauma.

 

Or are we going to regress into the middle ages?
What next?
Killing religious heresy?

 

Always remember that that killer could have been YOU.
In fact it is you, it's just that your ego got lucky this time.

They deserve the same help that you deserve.

[Nahm]

On 10/17/2021 at 0:35 PM, MFateh said:

I watched a video of Leo called "What if Reality is Nothing but Perspective?", and from what he said about understanding all perspectives in the process of accumulating love, it seems like one should not wish death for the relative worst of human beings, including murderers. So I want to ask, isn't it unfair for a murderer to continue living in this life and enjoying it some way or another after he took it away from someone else? Someone who was having as rich of a life as me, you and everyone else? Keep in mind that I am not talking about the financial or murder rate side of the capital punishment. I am only talking about this "moral" side. 

Thought can not resolve thought, believing you are separate can not resolve believing you are separate, killing can not resolve killing. Like all of us, you’re free to directly experience. 

@billiesimon

Iknowright?!  Are we dining at the Taco Bell of spirituality? 

 

[billiesimon]

3 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@billiesimon

Iknowright?!  Are we dining at the Taco Bell of spirituality? 

 

 Seems more like the slums of spirituality.

Yeah, too much philosophy withouth feeling empathy is useless.

And I'm a HUGE student of philosophy.

[MFateh]

@lmfao I understand that everyone has the right to live, and that murderers are just like anyone of us. My bothered mind can excuse murderers who've been subjected to trauma/abuse by an individual, and I completely don't mind killing for self defense, if proved in courts. My problems is with sadistic killers, those who just enjoy torturing people, and also with murderers driven by jealousy, hatred and other similar drives. Isn't it unfair for them to continue living their lives after they took what they're enjoying away from others? What I am saying is that sadistic killers should be executed and murderers driven by jealousy or hatred should be killed too if they show no signs of remorse and regret. I mean, they have achieved what they wanted. Right? They have gotten rid of the person they hated and now they get to live albeit only after a small period in prison. It makes no sense for me to see them enjoying their lives after they have hurt others on their way. 

 And yes, my question is not metaphysical at this point. Bear in mind too that I am open to everyone's point of view. I just want to understand why I am ought to forgive these murderers because most of the people I have encountered seem to be against killing murderers. So my quest is to understand why and not to challenge your opinions. 

 

9 hours ago, billiesimon said:

People who kill or get into crime are nice people as everyone else.

It's not their decision. They are completely unconscious and subjected to trauma.

Your "civil and educated" human life is not more worthy that theirs.

They need to be rehabilitated and healed from their trauma.

I am not saying that they are not nice or that they don't have a rich life. I am just saying that what they have committed by ending a rich life of someone else, sadistically or for a silly reason, deserves a proper punishment. Even if it's not killing them, I think they deserve to have most of their rights taken away. They don't deserve to enjoy something they've taken away from others. 

9 hours ago, billiesimon said:

Always remember that that killer could have been YOU.
In fact it is you, it's just that your ego got lucky this time.

I am aware of this, too. But I don't think this is something that might avert me from my stance. Because, in the end, if I am going to forgive murderers from the fear of getting killed myself for committing a murder then it's going to be a lacking perspective filled with fear. 

Again, if you think my stance is regressive and lacking in compassion/sympathy then I would love to change it. But I want to see your perspectives first to know better.

[Egzoset]

Do not kill in the name of anyone, not even your own, not to mention that's an admission of failure besides lowering ourselves to the level of animals.