Do Murderers Deserve to Die?

[MFateh]

I watched a video of Leo called "What if Reality is Nothing but Perspective?", and from what he said about understanding all perspectives in the process of accumulating love, it seems like one should not wish death for the relative worst of human beings, including murderers. So I want to ask, isn't it unfair for a murderer to continue living in this life and enjoying it some way or another after he took it away from someone else? Someone who was having as rich of a life as me, you and everyone else? Keep in mind that I am not talking about the financial or murder rate side of the capital punishment. I am only talking about this "moral" side. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by MFateh

[Thought Art]

Depends on your perspective 

[PurpleTree]

absolutely not

[Leo Gura]

Actually it feels pretty fair to me for a murderer to die. What's unfair is paying to house them for 40 years and putting up with their bullshit.

The problem tho is that some people are wrongfully convicted of murder.

We should probably try to rehabilitate the ones we can. And then maybe the ones who can't can die.

I would issue an ultimatum like: you got 10 years to repent and get your shit together and rehabilitate yourself into a useful and loving member of society. Here are the resources you need to do that. And if you don't, you're getting lethal injection. It's up to you.

[Nos7algiK]

An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind.

A murderer neither deserves to die nor do they deserve to live. Whatever may happen to them, is meant to happen. Our thoughts on what they deserve mean nothing to the story of their life. The only thing our thoughts about them accomplish, is what it says about our own selves.

To live in love that is unconditional, it has no motives nor does it have any sympathy/apathy for the murderer or their victims.

This is where people like to insert the argument "You wouldn't be saying that if it was your loved ones who was murdered". To that I would say: Two lives were ruined at the hand of one. I have the choice if I wish to add another life to that pool. Though it may be difficult, the highest human virtue is acceptance and allowance. Only suffering remains without these virtues and at the end of that suffering the answer remains the same.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Nos7algiK

[Elisabeth]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I would issue an ultimatum like: you got 10 years to repent and get your shit together and rehabilitate yourself into a useful and loving member of society. Here are the resources you need to do that. And if you don't, you're getting lethal injection. It's up to you.

Yeah, because It makes sense to love and obey the norms of a society that threatens you death unless you prove something that cannot be proven 

 

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Elisabeth said:

Yeah, because It makes sense to love and obey the norms of a society that threatens you death unless you prove something that cannot be proven 

It's not about obeying norms but more about rehabilitating oneself into a healthy member of society, and righting one's wrongs.

It is possible to rehab oneself. But this requires a serious desire to do so by the murderer. There has to be a genuine remorse and seeking of forgiveness and then a letting go of the past.

If a murderer is not willing to do that, why should society keep him around? For what purpose? We euthanize dogs for less than that.

Of course I am talking about an intentional 1st degree murder here. Not something accidental.

I consider lethal injection pretty humane. Being locked up for 40 years might hold more suffering.

[Thought Art]

Talk about spiritual journey...

[Egzoset]

When one kills i find that alone renders him a bit less human, by loosing a part of his humanity, so it's not even about a sense of "justice" or revenge from other guy's perspective.  henc if KILLING life is unworthy of decent evolved/emancipated (...) humans then it must be banned and actually it's no consideration for those risking an execution in countries supporting the death penalty, like China over drug smuggling, etc.  Murder is simply unworhy of me, legal or otherwise.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Egzoset

[Nos7algiK]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's about obeying norms and more about rehabilitating oneself into a healthy member of society, and righting one's wrongs.

It is possible to rehab oneself. But this requires a serious desire to do so by the murderer. There has to be a genuine remorse and seeking of forgiveness and then a letting go of the past.

I know with some sexual predators they do this. Even after they pay their dues if they consistently fail their rehabilitation there is a good chance they will be thrown back in prison.

[Thought Art]

I feel like context is important.

If you murder your husband who repeatedly raped and beat you.... then I think you should be rehabilitated and freed if you work on your trauma etc.

But, if you like murder people for fun, or murder your wife out of jealousy, or random people.

Also, sometimes murders happen because of gang violence which I would imagine is complicated as well.

People get drunk downtown and get in fights and by mistake kill each other, get charged for murder

A man was driving a big truck in central canada, hit a bus full of a teenage hockey team and killed 16... charged for manslaughter I think... 16 counts. He didn't even mean to. It was his first day on the job and the stop sign was controversial and his training wasn't adequate. 

Murder is a deep interesting topic.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Thought Art

[PurpleTree]

45 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Actually it feels pretty fair to me for a murderer to die. What's unfair is paying to house them for 40 years and putting up with their bullshit.

The problem tho is that some people are wrongfully convicted of murder.

We should probably try to rehabilitate the ones we can. And then maybe the ones who can't can die.

I would issue an ultimatum like: you got 10 years to repent and get your shit together and rehabilitate yourself into a useful and loving member of society. Here are the resources you need to do that. And if you don't, you're getting lethal injection. It's up to you.

should a rapist be raped?

[Thought Art]

7 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

should a rapist be raped?

Rape and murder have different outcomes.

When a murderer is put down, it keeps people safe.

However, perhaps a child grows up without a father, and looking for that love he rapes.

Who knows...

[Elisabeth]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's about obeying norms and more about rehabilitating oneself into a healthy member of society, and righting one's wrongs.

It is possible to rehab oneself. But this requires a serious desire to do so by the murderer.

Sorry about my sarcasm. I'm being emotional because I just recently got an ultimatum, and it made me not want to have anything in common with the people issuing the ultimatum. 

I don't doubt it's possible to rehabilitate a murderer. Easier for some, harder for others, depending on many factors. My point #1 is, it can't be proven. It's completely up to society to believe a murderer's personality change, or not. How is it ethical or helpful to their development to have them live in fear of a lethal injection for X years, completely at the mercy of the judge deciding if their life has become "useful" and "loving" enough? 

If you wanna give them a chance, have them complete a punishment, give them the resources to rehab themselves, and trust they can do it. You're putting society in some danger, but so are you if you give them the ultimatum. You can still kill them if they do more crime, but don't make it a Damocles' sword ready to fall at an artificial 10year mark, just make it a new trial for that new transgression. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Elisabeth

[Nahm]

7 hours ago, MFateh said:

I watched a video of Leo called "What if Reality is Nothing but Perspective?", and from what he said about understanding all perspectives in the process of accumulating love, it seems like one should not wish death for the relative worst of human beings, including murderers. So I want to ask, isn't it unfair for a murderer to continue living in this life and enjoying it some way or another after he took it away from someone else? Someone who was having as rich of a life as me, you and everyone else? Keep in mind that I am not talking about the financial or murder rate side of the capital punishment. I am only talking about this "moral" side. 

Ego will always condone ego, intelligence will never harm itself, physically, mentally, or emotionally. In the same way one might experience a fragmented finite mind, and the only solution is therefore unification… the only way for a society experiencing ostracism is unity. For as long as we ostracize we remain fragmented. And of course the truth is that we actually don’t. It’s only a facade. Like, all of it. There really is nothing you can do that can’t be done. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

should a rapist be raped?

I am not suggesting that the killing of a murderer is to be done as vengeance. It is done to conserve system-wide resources which are better used elsewhere. The money we spend feeding and housing a murderer for 40 years is better invested in education, child care, healthcare, reducing poverty, etc.

[Roy]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Actually it feels pretty fair to me for a murderer to die. What's unfair is paying to house them for 40 years and putting up with their bullshit.

Seeing someone I admire say this just gave me a huge dose of relief and confirmation bias for being liberal on just about every single position, but adamant pro death penalty lol.

 

[PurpleTree]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I am not suggesting that the killing of a murderer is to be done as vengeance. It is done to conserve system-wide resources which are better used elsewhere. The money we spend feeding and housing a murderer for 40 years is better invested in education, child care, healthcare, reducing poverty, etc.

ok then who besides murderers should be "eliminated" because we don't want to feed them for decades and they're a danger to society?

rapists?pedos? 

 

cutting thieves hands of would also be a pretty neat idea

let's just revert back to a better time (the dark ages, medieval times)

: P hihi muricans

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

ok then who besides murderers should be "eliminated" because we don't want to feed them for decades and they're a danger to society?

rapists?pedos? 

Some rapists perhaps.

8 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

cutting thieves hands of would also be a pretty neat idea

Nice strawman.

[Thought Art]

Death penalty, if you believe death is infinite love and a new beginning.. let the life of a murderer go.