Hurt a girl, what to do... ethical way of dating?

[egoeimai]

You should let her go.

 

[somegirl]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course that happens. But don't forget girls pull such shit all the time too. This scenario is not at all limited to guys.

You know how many girls I've built connections with who never had the decency to call me back?

This shit is like the norm. And of course it stings like a bitch

That sucks so much. It's awful whoever is on the receiving end of that neglect.

[Guest EmptyVase]

@Leo Gura

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course casual sex happens and fuckbuddies sometimes work (for a while, always for a while).

But I think those are exceptional situations, like temporary coping mechanisms people take because they cannot find the right partner or they have some psychological baggage they are avoiding or in the middle of working through. Many guys have a deep fear of intimacy and commitment. Or are looking for a hotter girl.

Even as a guy, you should notice that when you meet an amazing girl you want more with her than casual sex, and it will break your heart if she dumps you. Guys get attached too.

I'd also say that it's convenient to be fuckbuddies, until one of them finds the right one. It's easier than always finding another sex partner. I don't think it necessarily has to do with some coping mechanism.

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

@Leo Gura

I'd also say that it's convenient to be fuckbuddies, until one of them finds the right one. It's easier than always finding another sex partner. I don't think it necessarily has to do with some coping mechanism.

Of course! THAT is the coping mechanism!

And the first one who finds the right one will end up hurting the other.

Also, a lot of girls get sucked into fuckbuddy situations because they think they will win the guy over if they fuck long enough. A girl will usually only put up as a fuckbuddy for a brief window, like 3-8 months. Then she desires something more and leaves.

Because all healthy girls want deep intimacy.

But there are many damaged and unhealthy girls who can be easily manipulated. Which is what many guys exploit to get easy sex.

The healthier a person is the harder they are to exploit because they have high self-esteem and strong values and boundaries. So if you want sex with the healthiest people you can't get there with scummy selfish tactics and gimmicks.

[diamondpenguin]

@Leo Gura

Lol, Leo's Lessons:

Lesson 1: Seek deep intimate sexual relationships, not half-ass mess arounds.

Lesson 2: You don't have to be anybody's lapdog, half some Self-Esteem!!! Build that Self-Esteem!

[Leo Gura]

@diamondpenguin

The only lesson is: Be conscious. As conscious as you can stomach.

[zazen]

Thanks for the feedback Leo and everyone!  In hindsight it was wrong, the sex just happened in the heat of the moment. Its for this reason I personally haven't been dating the past year or so as Im busy focusing on my own development, work a job and building a business on the side etc and you can't get into a relationship when limited for time. At the same time learning about society and dating. I'm trying to figure what the right thing to do is, and that my individual actions don't contribute to a traumatic society in the long run. 

 

Guys are also being hurt by women as Leo points out. From the culture casual sex is pushed through media, empowerment etc and this is whats confusing/contradictory. Just one example: Demi Lovato who has all 117million followers (size of a country) of young impressionable girls from her Disney days following her, posted to sleep around be a slut etc. If anyone speaks against such things their deemed far right, judgemental, a prude or a Jordan Peterson puppet. As Leo said, decent girls want relationships. People would fight that and say, so what your saying is girls who sleep around aren't decent? Stop being so judgmental. Women now are sleeping with more men, then men are with women, minus the subset of the more attractive guys. 

 

The past extreme was complete rigidity of sex to one partner, the other is of extreme freedom to do what you want, but it has consequences. I started a thread of consequences of a unregulated dating market and its consequences which had a lot of interesting back and forth on it. Another thread was started by a woman on how to have sex without getting attached as a women, in another a woman was being told to give sex freely and not to be stingy about it, then another thread on this forum about having a negative bias towards men. Mixed signals are being sent but whats the middle way then. From the female perspective and now days especially what is pushed is follow your emotions, but this leads to bad emotions also. We have to love ourselves now,but also our future self by doing the right actions in this moment, and that takes consciousness and not giving in to certain emotions. 

 

Just yesterday a thread on war between men and women started as well. What caused this? In the past people were too rigid, but now too much freedom, or freedom not being used wisely / responsibly is causing its own issues. People starting relationships young, and getting embittered towards the opposite sex after a few failed attempts/relations. How can one healthily bond to the opposite sex that caused them these past traumas and if they do bond it is traumatic bonding or brings its own issues both parties have to deal with.  I guess the free love, liberation of the 60/70's was a needed shift from the past and marked the turning of the tide, but now society needs to come to some sort of balance as its clearly not working.

 

" It is human nature to be infatuated with freedom in spite of considerations pertaining to the stability of such. And so, the minority who manage to stylishly defy society and get away with it are near universally idolised by the masses who are less free. Rock stars, rappers and social butterflies looking to make a name for themselves all encapsulate such attitudes.

In truth, if all enjoyed the near absolute freedom of the few, social order would break down. Civilization would be but a shadow of its former self. And then those left would quickly call for order and more conservative social mores. Indeed, boom and bust, rise and decline, the attitudes and social mores of a civilization’s people appears quite cyclical. It appears that with prosperity, comes the rise of promiscuity. In safe societies the feminine is able to flourish. But people become like children with access to the cookie jar, this leads to excessive freedom, which in turn leads to destruction and general apathy. Then when collapse comes, the masculine takes over – leading to order, conservatism, and ordered individuals in turn  lead to a ordered, creative society once again  "

Edited October 14, 2021 by zazen

[Guest EmptyVase]

@Leo Gura

Very insightful, thank you.

Will you cover the emotional part of intimate relationships in your 'How To Get Laid' series too, or will that be something seperate?

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The healthier a person is the harder they are to exploit because they have high self-esteem and strong values and boundaries. So if you want sex with the healthiest people you can't get there with scummy selfish tactics and gimmicks.

I think that's where the beauty of authenticity comes in. When you are simply being yourself, and don't put up a facade to try to manipulate the partner into a relationship or sex or whatever, you will just complement each other so well that both can't help but fall in love with each other.

[Leo Gura]

I think that even girls are sexually free and comfortable with their sexuality STILL won't be much into casual sex. Girls might go through an early phase of that when they are 21-26, and then they wise up and grow out of it because it doesn't satisfy them.

For girls the problem is not one of being sexually up-tight, it's about craving deep emotional intimacy which cannot be had from shallow flings.

I think basically all girls are open to a few shallow flings. But it never satisfies them so the quickly grow out of it and seek something deeper. Also, as the girl ages her beauty fades and she needs to get more serious about finding a partner. Very young girls at the clubs aren't yet thinking about that. They are just being spontaneous and therefore end up sleeping around.

Of course these are generalizations. There will always be exceptions and you could hunt for those exceptions.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, EmptyVase said:

@Leo Gura

Will you cover the emotional part of intimate relationships in your 'How To Get Laid' series too, or will that be something seperate?

That would definitely need to be a separate episode.

I will do some deep episodes on Conscious Relationships at some point. It's very different from getting laid. Almost the opposite.

Quote

I think that's where the beauty of authenticity comes in. When you are simply being yourself, and don't put up a facade to try to manipulate the partner into a relationship or sex or whatever, you will just complement each other so well that both can't help but fall in love with each other.

Yes, assuming there is a solid authentic match.

The reason people manipulate and act inauthentic so much is because without those manipulations it's hard to match. The manipulation is like a fudge factor that helps the two halves find common ground. But at the cost of long-term collapse.

It's like, being authentic ensures more rejections, but the upside is that if it clicks, it really clicks and it's more real.

[Lyubov]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course that happens. But don't forget girls pull such shit all the time too. This scenario is not at all limited to guys.

You know how many girls I've built connections with who never had the decency to call me back?

This shit is like the norm. And of course it stings like a bitch.

My girlfriend and I went to techno party/rave the first time we met. We had amazing conversation and connected instantly. She came back to my place that morning to cuddle but she didn't want to have sex. She just had laser hair removal lol so she firstly was self conscious about down there. We basically dry humped in nothing but undies and did stuff with our hands and she orgasm'd a bunch but she didn't wanna take her panties off and do the full deed. That was fine with me cause what we did was still pretty graphic and we ended up doing it next weekend. Several months later I was feeling a little jealous like "why did she not just give it to me that night, was I not good enough for it?" and she basically told me she was absolutely head over heels for me the night we met and was terrified if she gave it all out that night she would of felt super easy and hurt if I didn't call her back or lost interest in her a week or two later. So sometimes you can be so amazing to a girl that it's good to just introduce sex over the course of a week rather than all in the first night cause she may be afraid of feeling used. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Lyubov

[Leo Gura]

48 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

My girlfriend and I went to techno party/rave the first time we met. We had amazing conversation and connected instantly. She came back to my place that morning to cuddle but she didn't want to have sex. She just had laser hair removal lol so she firstly was self conscious about down there. We basically dry humped in nothing but undies and did stuff with our hands and she orgasm'd a bunch but she didn't wanna take her panties off and do the full deed. That was fine with me cause what we did was still pretty graphic and we ended up doing it next weekend. Several months later I was feeling a little jealous like "why did she not just give it to me that night, was I not good enough for it?" and she basically told me she was absolutely head over heels for me the night we met and was terrified if she gave it all out that night she would of felt super easy and hurt if I didn't call her back or lost interest in her a week or two later. So sometimes you can be so amazing to a girl that it's good to just introduce sex over the course of a week rather than all in the first night cause she may be afraid of feeling used. 

Of course!

The more a girl likes you and sees you as boyfriend material, the slower she will be in doling out the sex. Because in her mind she respects you so much that she wants it "to be special" and not cheap. The cheap quick easy sex is for the douche bag player who she will never see again.

Girls are super counter-intuitive.

This is otherwise known as setting the boyfriend vs the player frame. If you set the player frame, she will have sex with you on the same night. If you set the boyfriend frame, it will take 3 dates.

I once was gonna have sex with a girl who really liked me in my car. But I had set the boyfriend frame. So she said, "No, I want it to be special". This is how girls think. Everything is backwards. You will not be rewarded for the boyfriend frame like you might expect, even though that's what she most wants.

The other problem with just playing with her but not closing the deal is that very often she will flip her mood the next day and never call you back because she feels like a slut or just awkward. It's quite risky to not close the deal. If you got her half-naked, it's usually best to close the deal. The chances of future success after that situation drops quite a bit. My general rule of thumb is: don't get her naked or too horny unless you can close the deal. Because setting up the next date will be so awkward in her mind.

If your plan is to court her over multiple dates, then the best move is to not push for sex the first date. Then you don't come off as cliche pushy guy and she will be excited for it on day 2.

[Lyubov]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course!

The more a girl likes you and sees you as boyfriend material, the slower she will be in doling out the sex. Because in her mind she respects you so much that she wants it "to be special" and not cheap. The cheap quick easy sex is for the douche bag player who she will never see again.

Girls are super counter-intuitive.

This is otherwise known as setting the boyfriend vs the player frame. If you set the player frame, she will have sex with you on the same night. If you set the boyfriend frame, it will take 3 dates.

I once was gonna have sex with a girl who really liked me in my car. But I had set the boyfriend frame. So she said, "No, I want it to be special". This is how girls think. Everything is backwards. You will not be rewarded for the boyfriend frame like you might expect, even though that's what she most wants.

The other problem with just playing with her but not closing the deal is that very often she will flip her mood the next day and never call you back because she feels like a slut or just awkward. It's quite risky to not close the deal. If you got her half-naked, it's usually best to close the deal. The chances of future success after that situation drops quite a bit. My general rule of thumb is: don't get her naked or too horny unless you can close the deal. Because setting up the next date will be so awkward in her mind.

If your plan is to court her over multiple dates, then the best move is to not push for sex the first date. Then you don't come off as cliche pushy guy and she will be excited for it on day 2.

I've had several experiences from both sides and I've noticed the sex is so much better from the sort of "boyfriend/lover/passionate" frame than the quick sort of "I don't give a fuck about you, just give me a fuck" frame. Far more emotions involved in the first so it just heightens the experience tenfold and sex afterwards is usually much better. There really is little opportunity to getting good in bed if you aren't going to take some time diving into and mastering the experiences presented in the relationships in the first frame. I would say the second frame oddly gets easier to transition to at later times if one is wanting to take a break from the first. It's counter intuitive how many guys try to master the second frame when it's the first one they need to really dive into to get good at the second, usually as a byproduct. I've noticed girls will stick around much longer even if it just stays a sort of FWB situation if you are willing to put your heart in it some. With the later I've even found myself losing interest in girls that are otherwise quite attractive and good for some fun, but there is little feeling behind it so it's more just like scratching an itch. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Lyubov

[Leo Gura]

24 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

I've had several experiences from both sides and I've noticed the sex is so much better from the sort of "boyfriend/lover/passionate" frame than the quick sort of "I don't give a fuck about you, just give me a fuck" frame. Far more emotions involved in the first so it just heightens the experience tenfold and sex afterwards is usually much better. There really is little opportunity to getting good in bed if you aren't going to take some time diving into and mastering the experiences presented in the relationships in the first frame. I would say the second frame oddly gets easier to transition to at later times if one is wanting to take a break from the first. It's counter intuitive how many guys try to master the second frame when it's the first one they need to really dive into to get good at the second, usually as a byproduct. I've noticed girls will stick around much longer even if it just stays a sort of FWB situation if you are willing to put your heart in it some. With the later I've even found myself losing interest in girls that are otherwise quite attractive and good for some fun, but there is little feeling behind it so it's more just like scratching an itch. 

Of course the boyfriend frame is the best if you actually want to be her boyfriend and do crazy intimate stuff together.

I love the boyfriend frame. It's just a shame that girls punish it's implementation by withholding sex or even mistaking it for neediness. You are sometimes forced to play the player frame to get the hotter girls because the boyfriend frame can come off too needy or clingy -- not edgy enough.

It can be effective to do the player frame up until the 1st sex and then switch to boyfriend frame after.

It sorta depends on the kind of girl and what she expects and the situation you meet her in. Loud club game will be quite different from day game. Player frame is more suited for night and boyfriend frame for day.

[Harlen Kelly]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Also, as the girl ages her beauty fades and she needs to get more serious about finding a partner. Very young girls at the clubs aren't yet thinking about that. They are just being spontaneous and therefore end up sleeping around.

Otherwise known as the wall, a reality check. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Harlen Kelly

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I love the boyfriend frame. It's just a shame that girls punish it's implementation by withholding sex or even mistaking it for neediness.

I mean what is wrong with taking 3-4 dates before having sex. As long as you are having a good time and getting somewhat physical she will not randomly stop talking to you, at least if she is a cool girl. 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You are sometimes forced to play the player frame to get the hotter girls because the boyfriend frame can come off too needy or clingy -- not edgy enough.

So for hot girls you use different strategy than for average/decent girls?

[zazen]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I think that even girls are sexually free and comfortable with their sexuality STILL won't be much into casual sex. Girls might go through an early phase of that when they are 21-26, and then they wise up and grow out of it because it doesn't satisfy them.

For girls the problem is not one of being sexually up-tight, it's about craving deep emotional intimacy which cannot be had from shallow flings.

I think basically all girls are open to a few shallow flings. But it never satisfies them so the quickly grow out of it and seek something deeper. Also, as the girl ages her beauty fades and she needs to get more serious about finding a partner. Very young girls at the clubs aren't yet thinking about that. They are just being spontaneous and therefore end up sleeping around.

Of course these are generalizations. There will always be exceptions and you could hunt for those exceptions.

Yeah everyone has phases, the fun phase in youth say 18-23 , 23-27/28 is still fun but tones down as they are working now and more independent/finding themselves in the world. 27/28 when 30 is on the horizon and start to really consider settling down / having babies as signs of aging start showing and peer pressure around them doing the same. Isn't the college hookup culture / fun phase damaging though? Girls don't know any better and coming into this open liberal culture which promotes it as the thing to do only to damage them emotionally and make their future long term relationships suffer. 

 

What made the culture promiscuous and open like this. It can't be just feminism, that had its place but not entirely. I guess its a combination of things including technological advancements, social media, clicks/online attention driven by primal instincts such as sex, fear and base desires, urbanisation/bigger cities allowing anonymity and more opportunities to meet people. The world is progressing physically (safety wise/crime) socially in some ways (more green, inclusive etc) technologically a lot, but not sure if its offering us emotional progress in our social lives. We'r more damaged, isolated than before.

 

Inclusivity is good, but it has its limited in that some actions can cause damage. I guess the right attitude would be to let everyone know, these actions will not be judged by society any longer like before (be inclusive of all and not to disown the shadow or any aspects of ourselves), but to also include that here are also the consequences of those actions, and then leave people with their liberal freedom and agency to act accordingly. It's not like we can go back to the old days with a restrictive society,  so that seems like the balance. The problem is cause and affect, action and consequence isn't shown as easily as its politically incorrect or hurts peoples sensibilities. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by zazen

[Sine]

Read this: A message for men who want to avoid women regretting having been sexual with them.

https://civilizationemerging.com/a-message-for-men-who-want-to-avoid-women-regretting-having-been-sexual-with-them/?fbclid=IwAR3aYNhjLdk0_0caVIpbSf4RaBdHnmaueRsxmA18fAHiSHwGo6kseYS5iMI

[aurum]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I love the boyfriend frame. It's just a shame that girls punish it's implementation by withholding sex or even mistaking it for neediness. You are sometimes forced to play the player frame to get the hotter girls because the boyfriend frame can come off too needy or clingy -- not edgy enough.

 

My worry here is that this sets a potentially toxic “battle of the sexes” frame.

If we believe that women are “punishing us” for essentially being better human beings, then maybe our problem is not women. But what we are men are defining as our “reward”.

If our reward is sex as quickly and easily as possible, then that might be true. You’re better off looking like a player who she has no possible future with.

But actually, if our reward is a deep, meaningful relationship and intimate experience that fulfills us, then it might be right to wait to have sex. It could actually make it “more special”. Not by suppressing anything, but by feeling into the natural timing of things and not forcing anything.

For puas, their goal is as much sex as fast as possible. So of course this doesn’t interest them.

But if guys weren’t in scarcity around sex, like a lot of women, then waiting isn’t a scary thing. You know it’s coming. So you want the full experience. Not just to get it in as soon as possible.

[Lyubov]

Women are not punishing men for this. If a man wants a fuck he can learn to communicate clearly he wants a fuck and find women that are on the same page. It makes perfect sense why they would be protecting their heart if they started opening it a bit to a guy that was asking for it and then he switches things up and goes the player route the moment he gets her alone. The only time I've had women bail on me after a first date where it got kinda sexual but didn't go all the way was when I was first starting out on my journey to pick up women and there was a lot of incongruences in my personality. When that sort of raw sexual energy harmoniously dances with the lover side and you've developed a keen enough sense of communication and social skills it's just becomes kinda seamless and you tend to end up less in situations like this that you get bailed on, even if it doesn't go all the way. sometimes you gotta just realize some stuff is out of your control though and she may be dealing with her own stuff.