Hurt a girl, what to do... ethical way of dating?

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@Leo Gura

I mean what is wrong with taking 3-4 dates before having sex. As long as you are having a good time and getting somewhat physical she will not randomly stop talking to you, at least if she is a cool girl.

Nothing wrong of course.

But the longer you drag it out the more energy you potentially lose since a girl will not be truly invested in a guy until sex. So the longer it takes the more likely you are to lose her.

6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

So for hot girls you use different strategy than for average/decent girls?

That is generally the how it works. Attracting the hottest girls requires much higher skill. Attracting average girls is way easier because there is less competition.

3 hours ago, aurum said:

My worry here is that this sets a potentially toxic “battle of the sexes” frame.

If we believe that women are “punishing us” for essentially being better human beings, then maybe our problem is not women. But what we are men are defining as our “reward”.

If our reward is sex as quickly and easily as possible, then that might be true. You’re better off looking like a player who she has no possible future with.

But actually, if our reward is a deep, meaningful relationship and intimate experience that fulfills us, then it might be right to wait to have sex. It could actually make it “more special”. Not by suppressing anything, but by feeling into the natural timing of things and not forcing anything.

Fair point.

But it is sorta the case that plenty of women don't reward decent behavior in men very well. The whole, nice guys finish last. There is truth in that.

The reward is not just sex, but the relationship itself. There can't be a relationship without the sex first.

I have lost plenty of girls who I wanted relationships with but the sex never happened therefore the relationship never happened either.

3 hours ago, aurum said:

But if guys weren’t in scarcity around sex, like a lot of women, then waiting isn’t a scary thing. You know it’s coming. So you want the full experience. Not just to get it in as soon as possible.

Except it doesn't necessarily come. Women are fickle and change their moods and minds easily. So dragging it out means you will lose some girls.

That may be acceptable, but it can also be very frustrating because you get invested in it.

[Bob Seeker]

15 hours ago, somegirl said:

 

I had a guy who hurt me just by us making out one night and not sending me any follow-up message the next morning. Or, ever, after that. And he knew I really liked him. I certainly felt used.

I did that one time thinking it was needy or just sort of weird to message next day. I saw her like that next night and she wouldn’t even talk to me she was so pissed. I was highly confused, thought she just rejected me because she thought I sucked lol.

[Bob Seeker]

Will doing pickup and avoiding relationships depress you?

[aurum]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But it is sorta the case that plenty of women don't reward decent behavior in men very well. The whole, nice guys finish last. There is truth in that.

How are we defining “nice” or “finish last”?

I find these are really vague terms.

In general, if a woman is messing around with guys who are narcissistic or otherwise unhealthy, I take that more as her trauma than an objective truth about women. And it doesn’t sound like the kind of person I’d want to be in a relationship with anyway.

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The reward is not just sex, but the relationship itself. There can't be a relationship without the sex first.

This is where we diverge then.

I think this “no relationship without sex first” belief is a toxic for guys looking to get into healthy relationships. If you’re into PUA, then it’s a great belief.

And I’m not saying everyone must now wait until they’re married until they have sex. What I’m really trying to convey is that I don’t have a rule about it. The rule comes from insecurity.

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I have lost plenty of girls who I wanted relationships with but the sex never happened therefore the relationship never happened either.

And I have too. We all have to work at properly putting forward our intentions and being vulnerable.

But you can also miss relationships from insisting that sex must come first.

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Except it doesn't necessarily come. Women are fickle and change their moods and minds easily. So dragging it out means you will lose some girls.

Sure, if you’re in a night club and you’re trying to pick up girls. Then you definitely benefit from a more aggressive approach. That’s undeniable.

But the world is not a night club.

And ultimately, I’m not trying to act in a way that will get me the MOST girls. I’m interested in a solid relationship, which means only one person. So the percentages and calculations about what works the most number of times doesn’t matter to me. I trust the universe to bring who is right into my life, just like it always does. Regardless of “odds”.

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

That is generally the how it works. Attracting the hottest girls requires much higher skill. Attracting average girls is way easier because there is less competition.

I thought that putting hot women on pedestal or treating them as "special" is not a good mindset for guys to have when trying to get them. They may look like goddesses, but they really aren't.

Furthermore, attractive looking girls don't actually get approached nearly as much as average girls do because most guys get too intimidated to approach hot girls, but aren't intimidated by average girls.

Besides looks to an extent are subjective. What's hot to you may be more average to me and vice versa. So, then how could there objectively be any more competition for "hot" girls than there would be for "average" girls?

 

 

[somegirl]

@aurum has some valid points, I'm impressed.

[aurum]

3 hours ago, somegirl said:

@aurum has some valid points, I'm impressed.

?thanks!

[Shin]

5 hours ago, Hardkill said:

I thought that putting hot women on pedestal or treating them as "special" is not a good mindset for guys to have when trying to get them. They may look like goddesses, but they really aren't.

Furthermore, attractive looking girls don't actually get approached nearly as much as average girls do because most guys get too intimidated to approach hot girls, but aren't intimidated by average girls.

Besides looks to an extent are subjective. What's hot to you may be more average to me and vice versa. So, then how could there objectively be any more competition for "hot" girls than there would be for "average" girls?

 

 

Starving dogs :

You're underestimating our power !

[zazen]

Women respond to strength, whatever form that may be in. Unfortunately the negative form of strength (ie narcissists, arrogance etc) is more prevalent than in its positive form (confident yet caring). The same strength that excites women and gets them wet, also scares them if that strength is not entrusted to be in their interest. There are many caring guys but they lack the strength of being centred, grounded and confident to express their strength. Women seek to secure strength (in men), men seek to express their strength (to women and the world). In the absence of strong men, women will seek to secure strength themselves, or through larger government as they don't have strong men to be taken care of, of course this reliance on men also lead to men taking advantage of their position in the past. 

The player types show strength (although more in its negative form) but they lack giving women the security of being there over long term, and the ideal for women is to secure that strength over the long term. Today, financial/physical security isn't needed by men as society has developed (women being financially independent, government support, safer cities etc). Although, women still seek strength viscerally and emotionally, socially as we'r tribal and hardwired for social connection, that was our security over thousands of years. 

Gentle-men is the what men are striving for. The nice guy is gentle but not in touch with his masculinity, the jerk is a man but not gentle. The sophisticated savage, the human-being.  Be human (which is our animal nature) but be in touch with the BEing (loving caring spirit) that animates us also, and that sets us apart from the other species.  This is why women love stories like beauty and the beast (taming and securing the strength of the beast), or vampires etc its the strength that they seek to secure using their femininity. The play of masculine/feminine is for the feminine to round out the masculine, as water shapes rock over time. When such strength is secured and tamed, it validates the feminine essence and there is harmony of the two.

Edited October 15, 2021 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

15 hours ago, aurum said:

How are we defining “nice” or “finish last”?

I find these are really vague terms.

It's a general truism. And there is a truth to it. You don't need to rigorously define the terms.

Quote

I think this “no relationship without sex first” belief is a toxic for guys looking to get into healthy relationships. If you’re into PUA, then it’s a great belief.

It's not really a belief. It's just that without sex there basically is not enough investment from her to constitute anything that would be worth calling a "relationship". Sex is what makes things serious. Until then it's just games and no commitment.

Quote

What I’m really trying to convey is that I don’t have a rule about it. The rule comes from insecurity.

I don't have a rule about it per se. I just know from experience that you don't have a chicken until your egg is hatched, and sex is the hatching of the egg here. Many eggs don't hatch, so calling them chickens is jumping the gun.

Quote

Sure, if you’re in a night club and you’re trying to pick up girls. Then you definitely benefit from a more aggressive approach. That’s undeniable.

But the world is not a night club.

Yes, context matters.

Boyfriend frame is more appropriate outside the nightclub.

Quote

And ultimately, I’m not trying to act in a way that will get me the MOST girls. I’m interested in a solid relationship, which means only one person.

I'm not saying you should chase after the most girls. But even to get that one solid girl you gotta break some eggs and you gotta sleep with her.

15 hours ago, Hardkill said:

I thought that putting hot women on pedestal or treating them as "special" is not a good mindset for guys to have when trying to get them. They may look like goddesses, but they really aren't.

Yes, you don't want to treat them as special, but the fact is they are special in that they have massive sexual abundance due to their rare genetic giftedness. You can know this and yet not put her on a pedestal. It's hard to do because you have to train yourself to not care about her beauty, which is not easy because it's so obvious to everyone. You can't let her beauty weaken your poise. The more beautiful she is the harder it will be for you to keep your poise and cool. And once you lose your poise and cool, she loses attraction for you.

Quote

Furthermore, attractive looking girls don't actually get approached nearly as much as average girls do because most guys get too intimidated to approach hot girls, but aren't intimidated by average girls.

This sounds nice in theory but unfortunately it's not true. The hotter the girl the more she gets approached by guys.

If you were a really hot girl your phone would be blowing up with guys trying to get with you using whatever tricks they can muster. Offering you all sorts of free shit. Hot girls are used to being treated like royalty. They use this power to maximize their survival. If you had this power you would use it too.

[LordFall]

On 10/14/2021 at 3:41 AM, Leo Gura said:

Of course casual sex happens and fuckbuddies sometimes work (for a while, always for a while).

But I think those are exceptional situations, like temporary coping mechanisms people take because they cannot find the right partner or they have some psychological baggage they are avoiding or in the middle of working through. Many guys have a deep fear of intimacy and commitment. Or are looking for a hotter girl.

Even as a guy, you should notice that when you meet an amazing girl you want more with her than casual sex, and it will break your heart if she dumps you. Guys get attached too.

What is the point of the PUA/Game journey then? Just a way to self-develop enough to get the relationship you want? 

[Bob Seeker]

1 hour ago, LordFall said:

What is the point of the PUA/Game journey then? Just a way to self-develop enough to get the relationship you want? 

That’slike asking “why lift weights and eat chicken when you can do calisthenics and be a vegan and be likely even healthier?”

different people just have different visions

Edited October 15, 2021 by Bob Seeker

[aurum]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not really a belief. It's just that without sex there basically is not enough investment from her to constitute anything that would be worth calling a "relationship". Sex is what makes things serious. Until then it's just games and no commitment.

You just said “it’s not really a belief” and then went on to state a bunch of beliefs. 

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't have a rule about it per se. I just know from experience that you don't have a chicken until your egg is hatched, and sex is the hatching of the egg here. Many eggs don't hatch, so calling them chickens is jumping the gun.

You say you don’t have a rule about it, but it feels to me very much the opposite. It feels very much like you are at least somewhat closed off to the possibility of a relationship before sex. 

Maybe I am wrong. But that’s my read.

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm not saying you should chase after the most girls.

But it’s sort of implied by saying that if you don’t sleep with her first, you will lose some girls. The implication being that dating is numbers game where we should seek to maximize our potential odds of success. Which I also disagree with.

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But even to get that one solid girl you gotta break some eggs and you gotta sleep with her.

This is another belief about dating and how relationships work. And I know it comes from PUA / red pill thinking because I was taught the same thing.

But you don’t have to actually do that.  It’s really more of a power game than anything else, born out of having poor boundaries in the past. And it’s potentially toxic by making people feel like they need to have the upper hand.

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, LordFall said:

What is the point of the PUA/Game journey then? Just a way to self-develop enough to get the relationship you want? 

The point is to learn to socialize and find yourself a girl you can fall in love with. And then if she leaves you, the point is you can find a new one.

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's hard to do because you have to train yourself to not care about her beauty, which is not easy because it's so obvious to everyone.

Actually i mindset that i have adopted lately which has worked really well is to stop caring about appearances in general. You notice it of course, you also can compare but you give no value to it. You treat it as you would treat some petty trivial thing. It started as a way for me to raise my self esteem, "not caring about how i look (after i did all i could to improve them ofc)", then i noticed it was not sustainable as long as i gave a lot of importance on how girls looked. The cognitive dissonance was too much so i just used the standard for everyone, myself included. Your video on "How to stop judging" inspired me. Just sharing it, it is a nice mindset to have i think. It has allowed me to be more and more unphased at a girl's beauty to the point where the way i act is almost the same between different hotness of girls.

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@Leo Gura

Actually i mindset that i have adopted lately which has worked really well is to stop caring about appearances in general. You notice it of course, you also can compare but you give no value to it. You treat it as you would treat some petty trivial thing. It started as a way for me to raise my self esteem, "not caring about how i look (after i did all i could to improve them ofc)", then i noticed it was not sustainable as long as i gave a lot of importance on how girls looked. The cognitive dissonance was too much so i just used the standard for everyone, myself included. Your video on "How to stop judging" inspired me. Just sharing it, it is a nice mindset to have i think. It has allowed me to be more and more unphased at a girl's beauty to the point where the way i act is almost the same between different hotness of girls.

Yeah, well, that mindset is very hard to embody in practice, especially if you are deprived of sex for a while.

In practice the way most players develop that mindset is by sleeping with lots of girls every month, therefore they have massive sexual abundance to the point of not caring. But if you're not sleeping around with many girls, that will be very challenging to embody.

It's physiologically difficult for most guys to just ignore a hot girl. Our nervous system is wired for it like sugar. It is likewise difficult for most girls to just ignore a high value guy. They are also wired for it like sugar.

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura I think it depends on the individual also. I tend to have a relative feminine approach when it comes to these things. So i am less looks sensitive than some guys. Also depends how hot the girl is, if a girl is legit a 9-10/10 then it will be hard to avoid kissing her ass, however if she is a pretty/cute girl then it is not that hard with the mindset i wrote.

Also you can place that importance you gave looks into something else. Maybe personality, values, sense of humor, intelligence, kindness, etc. 

Yes it is hard though, no question about that.

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, well, that mindset is very hard to embody in practice

Still easier than "no self"  

[Leo Gura]

@Karmadhi It's gonna depend so much on how much need you have for her. If you really need a girl in your life all your rules and stoicism will fly out the window. And also if it's the right girl. Some girls you just get hooked on unlike others.

There are times in my life when I don't think about girls at all. Like they don't even matter. This is easy.

But then there are times in my life when I crave it like crazy. This is a bitch.

It can be tough sometimes.

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura If i may ask, your need for girls is more sex or love based? Love i mean affection. Especially prior to your spiritual growth.

Of course ideally you want and need both but if you could pick 1. So physical or emotional connection?

 

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@Leo Gura If i may ask, your need for girls is more sex or love based? Love i mean affection. Especially prior to your spiritual growth.

Of course ideally you want and need both but if you could pick 1. So physical or emotional connection?

To me this is an absurd choice. Obviously both. You can't have good sex without deep intimacy.

I don't need to pick one. For me they come as a package.

I don't like empty mechanical sex or one night stands. If I'm attracted to a girl I want to sleep with her more than once. I never understood why guys like ONS. It can be fun, but seeing her again is double the fun.