Covid vaccine mandate

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, fortifyacacia3 said:

@Ry4n

This isn't including all the people who died from not receiving care when emergency services and hospitals are at max capacity. We know just how much worse it would have been without lockdowns and vaccines.

Does it include people who let's say died from cancer while having covid.

I always hear that argument made.

[fortifyacacia3]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Does it include people who let's say died from cancer while having covid.

I always hear that argument made.

Nope. People who die with COVID do not get counted with the people who die of COVID. That excuse has been well played-out.

[Ry4n]

12 minutes ago, Tanz said:

Many people on the left support mandates because the narrative has been appealing to people's hearts and liberal people tend to be guided by the best aspects of human nature.  
The right tends to be more intellectual, individualistic and is more doubtful of human nature.  

I believe if there weren't so many companies and individuals profiting so much during these mandates the perception of them would not be so negative.  
Instead of printing money to give it to the rich that money could have been spent for infrastructure to support the sick.  The pharma companies should release that patent on the vax and just break even without hurting their wallets. The government could have offered them tax rebates or tax credit for the future.  Big tech profited the most during this time and they have little to do with this pandemic as far as the contribution to alleviating covid.  
Trust needs to be earned and they have done little to do that.  

 

Very insightful point. Also when the media (at least in my case) lies constantly who are people going to turn to? That's right...conspiracies. If the media was just honest about this people could hold their trust in them and avoid the conspiracies thus there wouldn't be such a god damn shit show. 

It also doesn't help that we're literally mocking unvaccinated people like they are animals, this is making things so so so much worse. 

6 minutes ago, fortifyacacia3 said:

99% of deaths are among the unvaccinated. Avoidable deaths. 

I don't disagree at all I'm getting my second shot this week. I think creating a culture that encourages vaccines (alongside other methods) whilst hitting targets before opening up is great, I'm just against mandating past that point as it increases psychological reactance that otherwise wouldn't be there. It isn't even necessary in the first place if literally 90% of the population are fully vaxxed. 

You have to make people feel like it is their decision and that they feel right about doing so; bullying, mocking and coercing causes the division we're seeing today. If people are already suspicious, how do you think adding a mandate would influence their opinion? I don't disagree I'm just saying that we are going about this the wrong way. 

10 minutes ago, fortifyacacia3 said:

The US justified a 20 year war over 9/11 where we lost the same amount of lives that we lose to COVID on a daily basis the past year and a half. You could call that the extreme end of things.

Ehhh, ok? I'm Australian. I just don't want the police coming to my house because I said something bad about them on Facebook, which has happened here. Multiple times. If I had a medical exemption for a mask walking down the street the police would beat the living shit out of me regardless. It's hell dude. Forgetting to wear a mask should not warrant throwing someone in jail for 2 years which is another law that may very well pass tomorrow.

25 minutes ago, fortifyacacia3 said:

Sorry you need to be forced not to kill people I hope you understand.

More patronising because of a differing opinion. That patronising attitude is literally a cultural phenomenon that exacerbates the problem. Imagine trying to convince someone to get it with this attitude, how do you think they'll react? 

Yes...You have TOTALLY won over the "conspiracy theorist" by calling him an idiot. (Not that I'm saying you did but I'm sure you understand my point). 

[Mason Riggle]

17 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

People are mostly selfish morons, even in this forum.

Without vaccines, we are doomed to economic collapse, lockdowns and deaths.

The "individual freedom" is never above collective survival.

People love to scream their rights but no one likes to have collective duties, this indicates a lack of ego development. 

We need daddy government to make tough decisions.

What also indicates a lack of ego development is placing 'humans alive today' at the top of the 'should survive' hierarchy, and losing sight of the suffering of all sentient beings, present and future.  By protecting the weakest members of 'the collective' we are creating a weaker 'collective'.  By prioritizing human survival (we tend only to prioritize the survival of currently living humans, and don't care much about future generations), we are causing unmeasurable suffering among non-humans, and future humans that goes largely un-considered at best, or is ignored completely. 

People who support a vaccine mandate have no clue what the ultimate consequences of such an action will be, and then proudly take some moral high ground which doesn't really exist.. 

 

Quote

 

"We aren’t better because we want to be. Because the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Because all the do gooders in the world whether they’re doing good for others or doing it for themselves are troublemakers. On the basis of ‘kindly let me help you or you’ll drown’, said the Monkey putting the fish safely up a tree. We white anglo saxon protestants; British, German, American. We have been on a rampage for the past hundred or more years to improve the world. We have given the benefits of our culture, our religion, our technology to everybody except perhaps the Australian aborigines. And we have insisted that they receive the benefits of our culture even our political styles our democracy you better be dead Democratic I will shoot you. And having conferred these blessings all over the place we wonder why everybody hates us. Because sometimes doing good to others and even doing go to oneself is amazingly destructive. Because it’s full of conceit. How do you know what’s good for other people? How do you know what’s good for you? If you say you want to improve. Then you want to know what’s good for you. But obviously you don’t because if you did you would be improved. So we don’t know. It’s like the problem of geneticists, which they face today. I went to a meeting of geneticists not so long ago where they gathered in a group of philosophers and theologians and said Now look here we need help. We now are on the verge of figuring out how to bring in any kind of human character. We would want to have. We give you saints, philosophers, scientists, great politicians, anything you want, just tell us what kind of human beings ought we to breed. 

 

So I said,  ‘How will those of us who are genetically unregenerated make up our minds what genetically generated people might be.?’ Because I’m afraid very much that our selection of virtues may not work. It may be like for example this new kind of high-yield grain which is made and which is becoming ecologically destructive. When we interfere with the processes of nature and breed efficient plants and efficient animals there’s always some way in which we have to pay for it. And I can well see that a eugenically-produced human beings might be dreadful. We could have a plague of virtuous people. Do you realize that? Any animal considered in itself is virtuous it does its thing but in crowds they’re awful. Like a cross crowd of ants, or locusts on the rampage, they’re all perfectly good animals. But it’s just too much I could imagine a perfectly pestiferous mass of a million signs. So I said to these people, ‘Look, if there’s anything you can do, just be sure that a vast variety of human beings is maintained.’ Don’t please bring us down to a few excellent types excellent for what we never know how circumstances are going to change. And how. Our need. For different kinds of people changes. 

 

At one time we may need very individualistic and aggressive people, at another time we may need very co-operative team working people. At another time we may need people who are full of interest in dexterous manipulation of the external world, at another time we may need people who explore into their own psychology and are introspective. There is no knowing but the mall varieties and the mosque ills we have obviously the better. So you see here again the problem comes out in genetics we do not really know how to interfere with the way the world is. The way the world actually is is an enormously complex interrelated organism. The same problem arises in medicine, because the body is a very complexly interrelated organism. And if you look at the body in a superficial way you may see there’s something wrong with it, here’s chicken pox. And the spots that it should come all out all over the place well you might say well spots of that cut them off. So you kill the bug. But then you find you’ve got real problems. Because you have to introduce some bugs to kill the bug, it’s like bringing rabbits into Australia. And that starts going all over the place and getting out of hand. And then you think well now wait a minute, it wasn’t the bugs in the blood there are bugs all over the place. What was wrong with this person that his blood system suddenly became vulnerable to those particular bugs his resistance was in doubt? Therefore what you should have given was not an antibiotic but vitamins. OK so we’re going to build up his resistance but resistance to what. You may build up resistance to this and this and this class of bugs, but then there’s another one that loves that situation it comes right in. See we always look at the human being medically, in bits and pieces, because we have heart specialists, lung specialists, bones specialists, nerve specialists, and so on. And they each see the human being from their point of view there are a few generalists but they realise that human bodies. Complicated that no one mind can understand it. And furthermore, supposing we do succeed in healing all these people of that diseases. What do we then do about the population problem. I mean we’ve stopped cholera, the black bubonic plague, we’re getting the better of tuberculosis, we may fix cancer and heart disease. 

 

Then what will people die of? Well they’ll just go on living. On the enormous quantities of others. Then we have to fix this birthing. Pills for everybody. Then we find one of the effects the side effects of those pills. What are the psychological effects upon men and women of not breeding of children in the usual way? We don’t know. And what seems a good thing today or yesterday like D.D.T. turns out tomorrow to been a disaster. What seemed in the moral and spiritual sphere, to like great virtues in times past are easily seen today as hideous evils, let’s take for example the Inquisition, in its own day among Catholics the Holy Inquisition was regarded. As we’d today regard the practice of psychiatry. You, you see, you feel that in curing the person of cancer almost anything is justified. The most complex operations, the most weird surgery people suspended for days and days on end on the end of tubes with X. ray penetration burning. Or people undergoing shock treatment, people locked in the colorless monotonous corridors of mental institution. In all good faith, they knew that witchcraft and heresy were terrible things. Often plagues imperiling people souls forever and ever. So any means we’re justified. To cure people of heresy. We don’t change. We’re doing the same thing today. But under different names. We can look back at those people and see how evil that was but we can’t see it in ourselves. So therefore, beware of virtue. " - Alan Watts

 

 

[Ry4n]

25 minutes ago, fortifyacacia3 said:

Nope. People who die with COVID do not get counted with the people who die of COVID. That excuse has been well played-out.

I'd need a source for that personally but it would also depend where you live. It would be very very difficult to weed out these nuances in practice, there's virtually always a combination of factors that influences one's death from covid (old age, obesity, immune compromised, smoker, etc). That doesn't discount the severity of the virus at all! 

 

[Recursoinominado]

5 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

What also indicates a lack of ego development is placing 'humans alive today' at the top of the 'should survive' hierarchy, and losing sight of the suffering of all sentient beings, present and future.  By protecting the weakest members of 'the collective' we are creating a weaker 'collective'.  By prioritizing human survival (we tend only to prioritize the survival of currently living humans, and don't care much about future generations), we are causing unmeasurable suffering among non-humans, and future humans that goes largely un-considered at best, or is ignored completely. 

People who support a vaccine mandate have no clue what the ultimate consequences of such an action will be, and then proudly take some moral high ground which doesn't really exist.. 

Then you should kill yourself and lessen the burden on the planet Earth and all other beings.

[Mason Riggle]

@Recursoinominado GTFO with your prescriptive morality.  Shoulds and Shouldnt's are subjective silliness. 

[Recursoinominado]

2 hours ago, Ry4n said:

"The overall death rate from covid-19 has been estimated at 0.66%, rising sharply to 7.8% in people aged over 80 and declining to 0.0016% in children aged 9 and under.1" https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1327

Idk man...sounds a bit extreme. 

There are so many problems with this argument that it is hard to know where to begin.

But let me tell you this:

1. This death rate would go exponentially high when hospitals are full. The lockdown, the masks, social distancing, vaccines etc worked to keep hospitals working below full capacity. ALL (or most) those people who got hospitalized and survived (vast majority) would DIE asphyxiated without medical attention. Now THAT'S a bit extreme.

2. There are sequels from COVID that we don't even fully understand yet. 

3. Imagine the trauma of all those ICU patients who survived. Yeah, you didn't die but you breathed through a huge tube shoved down your throat for days, weeks, and even months seeing several people dying close to you. Do not underestimate the awful traumatic experience of being hospitalized. 

[Recursoinominado]

10 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Recursoinominado GTFO with your prescriptive morality.  Shoulds and Shouldnt's are subjective silliness. 

Said the psychopath.

[Mason Riggle]

@Recursoinominado truth doesn't care about the personality of who speaks it. But nice ad hom. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Ry4n]

@Recursoinominado

It was a wrong statistic so ignore that point I'll delete it.

I understand where you're coming from, read my post from the top of this page 

28 minutes ago, Ry4n said:

I think creating a culture that encourages vaccines (alongside other methods) whilst hitting targets before opening up is great, I'm just against mandating past that point as it increases psychological reactance that otherwise wouldn't be there. It isn't even necessary in the first place if literally 90% of the population are fully vaxxed.

This is under the context that one is in lockdown having hit 90% fully vaccinated now starting to open up. Do you think there's a need for mandating past that point? To me the psychological reactance and distrust in the government that results far outweighs any small benefit. Instead encouraging vaccination rather than coercive bullying is more sensible and allows human rights to be more protected. Everybody wins.

It is a very small disagreement I have.

[Recursoinominado]

2 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Recursoinominado truth doesn't care about the personality of who speaks it. But nice ad hom. 

As i said, then you should kill yourself to be consistent with your argument.

[Mason Riggle]

@Recursoinominado you clearly don't understand my argument. 

[Recursoinominado]

2 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Recursoinominado you clearly don't understand my argument. 

If you keep posting (and breathing), i will assume YOU don't understand your argument.

[Mason Riggle]

@Recursoinominado you don't know what the ultimate consequences of 'me killing myself' would be, so you have no room to suggest that I 'should'.  Perhaps my killing myself will lead to intense suffering for all sentient beings.. you don't know.  That's my point. 

[Ry4n]

Just now, Recursoinominado said:

If you keep posting (and breathing), i will assume YOU don't understand your argument.

I've already reported your comment, ad hominems get us nowhere. This is getting petty. Even by my standards and I've talked some shit on this forum lol, killing oneself is too far.

34 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

By protecting the weakest members of 'the collective' we are creating a weaker 'collective'. 

I'm stealing this quote ahaha, although I'd add "overly protecting the weakest members" which is very much a problem these days. It's like reaching for a drowning person who takes you down with them, we should do our best but know some people are simply beyond help. 

[Carl-Richard]

If we're going to have yet another covid debate thread, please keep it civil. No personal attacks.

[Recursoinominado]

1 hour ago, Ry4n said:

I've already reported your comment, ad hominems get us nowhere. This is getting petty. Even by my standards and I've talked some shit on this forum lol, killing oneself is too far.

I am not being literal, obviously i am making a point.

He suggested we should not save the weak in order to save all other sentient beings from suffering, I suggest he should follow his advice, which he WON'T, thus proving his non-sense talking. Not a personal attack, it is an argument attack (dumb as fuck).

[Mason Riggle]

@Recursoinominado you are strawmanning my words.  I did not suggest we shouldn't save the weak in order to save all other sentient beings from suffering.  That's your interpretation of what I wrote, and your assumption of what I meant.  

My point was, and still is.. you don't know the ultimate consequences of any action, so to prescribe some action based on your limited ideas of what the outcome will be, which are often short sighted, misguided, incomplete, unknowable, etc. is foolish. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Mason Riggle]

@Recursoinominado and calling me a psychopath was a personal attack,