What is your SD center of gravity?

[Rilles]

My center is in Green but I am really start to see the limitations of it and I guess I will be at a solid Yellow in maybe 2-3 years unless life gives me a bad hand and I backslide. 

[Gesundheit2]

3 hours ago, DocWatts said:

From my own vantage point, I've found that Spiral Dynamics is much better used as a sociological model for looking at the interplay of different meta-ideologies.

The model becomes less interesting and useful when SD is used as a proxy for an individual's overall level of development, since it collapses several different lines of development down to a single axis (that of the meta-ideology which that person has been imprinted with) when used in that way.

People can be at a level of complexity and depth significantly above or below the SD-Stage they've been imprinted with. To see how the model falls short when used as a proxy for someone's overall level of development, consider that both Ben Shapiro and Marcus Aurelius are roughly SD-Blue...

?

[soos_mite_ah]

15 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

For people who voted Tier 2, who are your heroes? (or name some Tier 2 thinkers).

I'd say that I really like Natalie Wynn's (Contrapoints) content and to a certain extent look up to her. Can't really say she's "my hero" since I don't know much about her other than what she posts on her main channel. However, I will say that I admire her way of articulating her thoughts, the way she uses empathy to create more nuanced arguments, and her over all analysis on different subjects.

I would also add Leo but again, don't really consider him "my hero." I enjoy his content and how holistic he is in the way he presents different topics and how level headed he is on the topic of spirituality. His approach to spirituality and self development feels much more grounded than a lot of new agey people while still talking about similar subject matter. That's what pulled me into his content and I think it's pretty admirable. I guess a small part of me idolized him for a short period of time but I feel like after being on this forum, any smidge of that went out of the window. I don't mean that in a negative way per se but more so in a "ok he's just another guy prone to mistakes just like the rest of us" kind of way. 

I don't find myself seeing many people as my role model or hero so I always found that question hard to answer even when growing up. I feel like when you see someone in that way, there is that chance of falling into the trap of idolizing that person and turning a blind eye to their short comings. I think especially with the internet and cancel culture, for a lot of people who are younger (think gen z/ late millennials) there aren't a lot of heroes or role models because the people who would typically be considered heroes and role models, their whole lives are much more accessible and therefore you get a more holistic view of what they are like when the cameras aren't rolling. While people do get cancelled for a lot of stupid shit sometimes, I think this stage of development is important so people don't blindly follow people in the public eye by putting them on a pedestal and instead view these people as .. well other people. 

TLDR: I don't have a hero but there are a few people here and there whom I admire for certain traits. I can't say that I admire them since I don't know them personally, but their work does resonate with me and has caused me to grow and see the world in a more conscious light. 

[tuckerwphotography]

2 hours ago, hyruga said:

Why isn't there an option stage beige, purple and red?

@hyruga Because nobody on this forum is centered at those stages...or they wouldn't be on this forum. 

[tuckerwphotography]

3 hours ago, DocWatts said:

From my own vantage point, I've found that Spiral Dynamics is much better used as a sociological model for looking at the interplay of different meta-ideologies.

The model becomes less interesting and useful when SD is used as a proxy for an individual's overall level of development, since it collapses several different lines of development down to a single axis (that of the meta-ideology which that person has been imprinted with) when used in that way.

People can be at a level of complexity and depth significantly above or below the SD-Stage they've been imprinted with. To see how the model falls short when used as a proxy for someone's overall level of development, consider that both Ben Shapiro and Marcus Aurelius are roughly SD-Blue...

@DocWatts Yes, agree. I prefer the STAGES model which is based off a synthesis of Integral Theory and Susanne Cook-Greuter's work. I'm doing a course with Terri O'Fallen right now which has been a great way to integrate all the stages including the later MetaAware tier ones which Susanne's model does not cover (she bulks later stages after Construct Aware into a catch-all called Unitive). 

I just did SD because it's what's most commonly used as a map on the forum. Not enough people would know what Achiever, Pluralist, Strategist, etc would mean so there would be no point in creating that poll. 

Which stage of ego development do you resonate as your COG using the Cook-Greuter model? 

The_STAGES_Matrix_Roadmap_GEN_10-18.pdf

[tuckerwphotography]

47 minutes ago, Fearey said:

If you'd want to read more about my understanding of and experience of Coral, you could check out one of the first posts I wrote on this forum, linked below. I should add that I don't really like using the Spiral Dynamics model for modelling stages past Turquoise, as that's not what it's intended for. For this, I prefer using Ken Wilber's Integral Theory model, as it's a lot more accurate in portraying later stages past SD Turquoise.

When I wrote the post above I believed myself to be centered in early stage Teal, now I consider myself centered in mid to late stage Teal, and starting to have glimses of what comes next, although it'd be very difficult for me to put into words what that's like, or what that would be fully.

One thing that started happening to me that has never happened before is an underlying, permanent state of inner peace, or happiness if you will. A happiness that is present regardless of what happens around you, 24 hours a day. It's been like this for about 3 months by now, and as I've never experienced anything like this before, my conclusion is that this most likely comes from entering into an early state of the color that comes after Teal.

The stage after Teal, converted to Ken Wilber's Integral Theory would most likely be the stage named Ultraviolet.

As to how many human beings there are in Coral, Teal and the stages after, there is no good way to know, the best we can do is guess. While rare, I really don't think they're as rare as they're believed to be. Eckhart Tolle, for example, is someone I'm 99% sure is firmly centered in Teal or higher. 

@Fearey Thanks for sharing! I'm not sure what you're referring to as Teal. In the Integral Theory map, Teal is the alt term used to describe SD Yellow. So it wouldn't make sense to go from Coral to Teal? 

I'd suggest looking into STAGES which is a synthesis of Integral Theory and Susanne Cook-Greuter's stages of adult ego development. STAGES includes the MetaAware tier (5.0+) and goes into detail about each stage. Attached are two PDFs that you might find helpful to read. One is an overview of STAGES and the other is a deep dive into the later stages and how they map with nonduality and the Buddhist maps of Enlightenment. 

In STAGES, a rough outline could be:

4.5 Strategist = Yellow 

5.0 Construct Aware = late Yellow / early Turquoise

5.5 Transpersonal = Turquoise 

6.0 Universal = late Turquoise / early Coral

6.5 Illumined = Coral (but again, Coral isn't even really a thing, so it's hard to name this a true stage at this point in time)

The_STAGES_Matrix_Roadmap_GEN_10-18.pdf

Here's a link to the more in-depth PDF: https://www.integral-review.org/issues/vol_16_no_1_churchill_and_murray_integrating_adult_developmental_and_metacognitive_theory.pdf

Edited October 12, 2021 by tuckerwphotography

[tuckerwphotography]

13 hours ago, Raphael said:

I have more and more difficulties to categorize myself:

• Sometimes I consider myself at Orange/Green because I'm still integrating the business and success aspect of Orange, but aside from that I don't resonate with most things at Orange.
• Sometimes I see myself as mostly at Yellow with some Orange and Green because I really try to be as objective as possible and see things from different perspectives. However, Yellow is much more complex that we can assume, it's very difficult to be mostly at Yellow as it demands a lot of knowledge and life experiences that I don't think I have at my age.
• At some moments I even felt that I was at Turquoise.

Overall, I think that I avoid a bit the emotional vulnerability of Green.

Also, where someone is mostly at can vary on the kind of issue that he/she is dealing with even though it is not the person's usual center of gravity. For example if someone is usually at Yellow but went through some though challenges and need to heal, then this person will spend more time at Green to be in touch with his/her emotions and clear the traumas and therefore the center of gravity will be Green.

@Raphael This feels to me like a very honest assessment. Thanks for sharing! 

[tuckerwphotography]

16 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

For people who voted Tier 2, who are your heroes? (or name some Tier 2 thinkers).

@Carl-Richard I can't say any of these people are my "heroes" in the traditional sense of the word, but some folks who I deeply appreciate and resonate with are:

-Daniel Schmachtenberger

-Jamie Wheal

-Richard Rohr

-Ken Wilber

-Susanne Cook-Greuter 

-Terri O'Fallon 

-Scott Barry Kaufman 

-Adyashanti, Rupert Spira, Neal Donald Walshe

-Hanzi Frinacht aka Daniel Gortz

-Terry Patten

-Thomas Huebl

-David Deida 

-Leo 

-Daniel Thorson 

-David Hawkins

-Rebel Wisdom and Future Thinkers guys

-Holly Woods

-Alan Watts

[DocWatts]

38 minutes ago, tuckerwphotography said:

@DocWatts Yes, agree. I prefer the STAGES model which is based off a synthesis of Integral Theory and Susanne Cook-Greuter's work. I'm doing a course with Terri O'Fallen right now which has been a great way to integrate all the stages including the later MetaAware tier ones which Susanne's model does not cover (she bulks later stages after Construct Aware into a catch-all called Unitive). 

I just did SD because it's what's most commonly used as a map on the forum. Not enough people would know what Achiever, Pluralist, Strategist, etc would mean so there would be no point in creating that poll. 

Which stage of ego development do you resonate as your COG using the Cook-Greuter model? 

The_STAGES_Matrix_Roadmap_GEN_10-18.pdf

Thanks for the share! Looking forward to reading through this more thoroughly when I have a bit of time on my hands, but this does seem to be a much better model for individual development than trying to stretch Spiral Dynamics for that purpose.

Going from Leo's video on Susanne Cook-Grueter, I'd say I resonate most strongly with the Strategist stage, with perhaps with a very slight nudge in the direction of the Construct Aware stage as I continue to explore spirituality (closer to secular Buddhism than what Leo teaches).

Perhaps in another ten years... ?

[tuckerwphotography]

1 hour ago, DocWatts said:

Thanks for the share! Looking forward to reading through this more thoroughly when I have a bit of time on my hands, but this does seem to be a much better model for individual development than trying to stretch Spiral Dynamics for that purpose.

Going from Leo's video on Susanne Cook-Grueter, I'd say I resonate most strongly with the Strategist stage, with perhaps with a very slight nudge in the direction of the Construct Aware stage as I continue to explore spirituality (closer to secular Buddhism than what Leo teaches).

Perhaps in another ten years... ?

@DocWatts Nah, if you’re committed to evolving and growing, it won’t take 10 years. Then again, what’s the rush? Mine as well enjoy where you’re at if you’re happy and fulfilled ?

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, tuckerwphotography said:

 -Daniel Schmachtenberger

If you appreciate Daniel's ecoliteracy approach, look into Fritjof Capra, Gregory Bateson and Arne Næss. He draws a lot of inspiration from them.

[diamondpenguin]

9 turquoise? I call B.S. on that one.

[tuckerwphotography]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

If you appreciate Daniel's ecoliteracy approach, look into Fritjof Capra, Gregory Bateson and Arne Næss. He draws a lot of inspiration from them.

@Carl-Richard Aweoske thanks! I know Bateson (mostly Nora though) and Bucky Fuller. Have heard of the others but haven’t studied them. 

[Jacob Morres]

12 hours ago, DocWatts said:

From my own vantage point, I've found that Spiral Dynamics is much better used as a sociological model for looking at the interplay of different meta-ideologies.

The model becomes less interesting and useful when SD is used as a proxy for an individual's overall level of development, since it collapses several different lines of development down to a single axis (that of the meta-ideology which that person has been imprinted with) when used in that way.

By this you mean it's not nuanced enough for the developmental lines?

Like for example for the Relationships line, it's not holisitic enough 

 

[itachi uchiha]

@Fearey how did u move such high stage in such low amount of time.what did u got correct

[DocWatts]

12 hours ago, Jacob Morres said:

By this you mean it's not nuanced enough for the developmental lines?

Like for example for the Relationships line, it's not holisitic enough 

By this I mean that its strength is as a sociological model which shines light on how meta-ideologies arise, and come in to conflict with one another.

The depth and complexity of how a specific individual relates to their worldview isn't something that the model tracks (nor was it intended to). 

For example, someone like Marcus Aurelius or Plato were very likely at a level of depth and complexity far beyond the most advanced stage of their era, which was SD-Blue. A church going grandma in Louisiana who doesn't think very deeply about the ethical, political, or spritual implications of the worldview she was indoctrinated with from a young age is also likely Blue.

To expound on that, if someone is at a level of depth and complexity above their SD-Stage we would expect thier understanding of the meta-ideology to be more explicit, while someone at a depth and complexity below their SD-Stage would understand thier meta-ideology in a very flattened, implicit way. 

The only distinction that Spiral Dynamics would be able to make is whether or not a particular manifestation of a given stage is 'Healthy' or 'Unhealthy'.

It also doesn't give us any method for how to weight different lines of development which can all be at different levels (such moral development, spiritual development, relationship development etc.) when trying arrive at a rough aggregate or 'average' for an individual. If a person is roughly at Green in their politics, Blue in their intimidate relationships, and Orange in their views on Spirituality, is there anything holistic we can say about that person by using Spiral Dynamics?

Compare Spiral Dynamics to Susanne Cook Grueter's model of Ego Development, and you'll see that the latter is much richer and more holistic model for individual development.

As a sociological model Spiral Dynamics is great. As an individual development model, there are better alternatives.

Edited October 13, 2021 by DocWatts