A Challenge To Everything You Think You Know

[abrakamowse]

I think is not a definitive way of seeing for me, but now I am also seeing that not only love is a feeling. It works also like a mechanic thing.

Love is logical, if we are one we are supposed to feel love because we are really loving ourselves.

Maybe Im wrong...

[Primeval]

@NTOgen I think you were joking when you said that part about the rapist having a moral high ground over me if I were to hate the rapist.

Anyway, try rereading my first posts on page 11 to get what my point is.

Otherwise, yeah, we'll go in circles.

[abrakamowse]

5 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

I feel like I'm still missing your point so I might have to cut this short or else we'd be going in circles for a long time.

That happens to me everytime, that's why I am not posting as often as before. I feel that words are meaningless. It's very hard to make others understand pov if you don't give them a big "framework" of how did you reach that conclusion. And sometimes the conclusion is so challenging making it imposible to the other accept your pov or understand it.

Edited December 20, 2016 by abrakamowse

[Primeval]

5 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

My point is that you have the benefit of all this material to raise your consciousness. So if what I said is true and hate is only a low-consciousness expression of love, and if you stand by your statement that you should take action, then you should take action to raise your consciousness and not hate rapists.

If the rapist never had the benefit of material like this, you can't blame him for that. You would be hating him for having been dealt a rotten hand in life. While you were dealt a great hand, but which you failed to use to your advantage by raising your consciousness. What would you say to that. Maybe the rapist would be far more justified to hate you than the other way around.

I believe in free will. Many people from rotten life situations grow up to be good moral people, and vice versa. I'm still of the opinion that hate being a manifestation of love is not low-consciousness when and where it is justified. My point about TPTB coming into this is simply that this kind of talk I am proposing is not heard of often, because if the masses were of this viewpoint, and were to take action, then TPTB would lose control. It wouldn't even have to be a violent uprising, could be a peaceful resistance like we see at Standing Rock.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Lha Bho
Because Dragons

[Primeval]

Imagine your ideal of high consciousness love at Standing Rock. The protesters would go up to hug the police officers. And then they'd get shot. Or they'd walk away peacefully and the DAPL would get built. Soon the oil would spill and the water would be defiled.

[Primeval]

@NTOgen What would justify hate, and why?

Rape, Murder, Theft, Abuse and etc.

Why? I honestly think this doesn't need to be explained... it's self evident that those kinds of things are wrong. If you want to turn a blind eye and go meditate or whatever it is you do, then that's on you.

[Radical Honesty]

@Lha Bho

46 minutes ago, Lha Bho said:

By this logic wouldn't I not be able to not hate the rapist given my past, genetics and neurology at the time?

Not at all. You still have choices. However the decision you make to either hate or not hate the rapist is only dependent on your past experience, genes and neurology. How could it be otherwise? None of these things are in your control in the present moment—so how can you have free will?

There is no logical reason to believe in free will. And if you examine your moment to moment experience, you will realise it is an illusion. 

Let me put it another way. Imagine you swapped places with the rapist the moment before he chose to rape. If your brain is in the exact same state as his and you have had the exact same past experiences—can you see there is no way you could not chose to rape? 

[Primeval]

Just now, Radical Honesty said:

@Lha Bho

Not at all. You still have choices. However the decision you make to either hate or not hate the rapist is only dependent on your past experience, genes and neurology. How could it be otherwise? None of these things are in your control in the present moment—so how can you have free will?

There is no logical reason to believe in free will. And if you examine your moment to moment experience, you will realise it is an illusion. 

Let me put it another way. Imagine you swapped places with the rapist the moment before he chose to rape. If your brain is in the exact same state as his and you have had the exact same past experiences—can you see there is no way you could not chose to rape? 

I think there is more to a Being than a Biological Binary of Rape or Not Rape.

[Radical Honesty]

3 minutes ago, Lha Bho said:

@NTOgen What would justify hate, and why?

Rape, Murder, Theft, Abuse and etc.

Why? I honestly think this doesn't need to be explained... it's self evident that those kinds of things are wrong. If you want to turn a blind eye and go meditate or whatever it is you do, then that's on you.

These thing are clearly wrong—but what does hate solve? 

Hating someone because they were born with psychopath genes into an abusive family which led them to commit some atrocity just doesn't make any sense. 

[Primeval]

1 minute ago, Radical Honesty said:

These thing are clearly wrong—but what does hate solve? 

Hating someone because they were born with psychopath genes into an abusive family which led them to commit some atrocity just doesn't make any sense. 

Actually this is where my initial post comes into light.

Unconditional Love for All = Hating when they do immoral things. 

If you don't hate that your child is smoking crack at 15, do you actually Love that Child?

That's how hate is a manifestation of Love.

Without the Hate in the picture, you'd say "I love you and everything  you do including smoking crack."

[Radical Honesty]

3 minutes ago, Lha Bho said:

I think there is more to a Being than a Biological Binary of Rape or Not Rape.

What do you mean by this? 

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't punish rapists. We should punish  only in order to prevent further rapes. Or in order to lock them away so they don't rape anyone else.

[Primeval]

Just now, Radical Honesty said:

What do you mean by this? 

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't punish rapists. We should punish  only in order to prevent further rapes. Or in order to lock them away so they don't rape anyone else.

What I was meaning to say is that I don't believe if you put Ghandi in the position of Hitler, he'd do the same things as Hitler.

[Radical Honesty]

1 minute ago, Lha Bho said:

Actually this is where my initial post comes into light.

Unconditional Love for All = Hating when they do immoral things. 

If you don't hate that your child is smoking crack at 15, do you actually Love that Child?

That's how hate is a manifestation of Love.

Without the Hate in the picture, you'd say "I love you and everything  you do including smoking crack."

No you wouldn't. You would say 'I love you fully but you should stop crack unless you want to have a terrible life'.  

Why would you hate your child for doing crack? Due to their upbringing and genes, there is no scenario in which they couldn't have taken crack.

[Radical Honesty]

4 minutes ago, Lha Bho said:

What I was meaning to say is that I don't believe if you put Ghandi in the position of Hitler, he'd do the same things as Hitler.

Ok good. What is it about Ghandi which, if he had the brain and life of Hitler, he would have done differently?

Are you trying to say there is some moral soul in Ghandi that Hitler lacks? 

Edited December 20, 2016 by Radical Honesty

[Primeval]

1 minute ago, Radical Honesty said:

No you wouldn't. You would say 'I love you fully but you should stop crack unless you want to have a terrible life'.  

Why would you hate your child for doing crack? Due to their upbringing and genes, there is no scenario in which they couldn't have taken crack.

Notice I didn't say "Hate your child" ... I said "hate that your child is doing xyz"

I know I said hating the rapist but I'm not perfect at getting my thoughts out through text.

My point is this: If you have unconditional love for all mankind, then you naturally have hatred for how fucked up mankind is.

[hundreth]

6 minutes ago, Lha Bho said:

What I was meaning to say is that I don't believe if you put Ghandi in the position of Hitler, he'd do the same things as Hitler.

So you're saying there are good souls and bad souls? For the sake of argument, if that were true. Is it Hitler's fault that his soul is rotten? Does he have a choice in the matter? Whether he does or not, is hate the appropriate response?  One could argue change is possible, and I imagine the opposite would help bring about that change. Unconditional love.

[Primeval]

@hundreth All I was meaning to point out is my belief that if we swapped hundreth's consciousness, (assuming you are a moral person), with that of a serial killer's body/brain, I don't think that you'd then do EXACTLY every "predetermined" action henceforth that the serial killer would have acted as assuming we had not swapped you into his/her place.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Lha Bho
Because Dragons

[Radical Honesty]

@Lha Bho  

Hating the child for doing something is synonymous with hating the child. 

I assume you meant to say you hate act of doing crack—or that your child has done crack. But this also doesn't make much sense, because nothing else could have possibly happened. Reality unfolded exactly the way it did and couldn't have unfolded any other way.

Hating mankind for its flaws also doesn't make sense. Yes mankind has flaws—but why feel hatred because of it? Once again these flaws are part of how reality has unfolded and reality couldn't have unfolded any other way.  

It does make sense to try and minimise these flaws in the future. Just leave hate out of it.

[Radical Honesty]

5 minutes ago, Lha Bho said:

@hundreth All I was meaning to point out is my belief that if we swapped hundreth's consciousness, (assuming you are a moral person), with that of a serial killer's body/brain, I don't think that you'd then do EXACTLY every "predetermined" action henceforth that the serial killer would have acted as assuming we had not swapped you into his/her place.

Yes, assuming it is even possible to have moral and immoral consciousness, this still doesn't justify hatred. 

Hitler didn't chose to be born with immoral consciousness and Ghandi didn't chose to be born with moral consciousness. Where is the free will here?

[Primeval]

@Radical Honesty You are still misrepresenting my position, though that's not your fault because I have been wording it wrong.

I'm not saying to hate mankind because of it's flaws, I'm saying to hate that mankind is flawing.

Once again, not hating the child for doing something but hating the something the child is doing.

Quote

nothing else could have possibly happened. Reality unfolded exactly the way it did and couldn't have unfolded any other way.

I disagree.