Doing Less

[stevegan928]

does the act of doing less (taking in less stimulus) "raise" consciousness? some of us talk about the do nothing technique and @Leo Gura made that video on lifestyle minimalism. so i'm just curious of how my life would be effected by simply doing less. 

for example when i eat i like to be browsing the forum or listening to something (usually self-help stuff) and when i daydream i like to pace (it helps get into flow more i think, some call this maladaptive daydreaming). so what if i just started doing one thing at a time instead? like less overall stimulus (which i usually justify the stimulus by saying to myself it's high consciousness stimulus) 

if i spent a whole day just sitting down and doing basically as little as possible (so not even really meditating) would that make a positive shift in my consciousness overtime? i realize i'd daydream, have monkey mind and probably do a little bit but my goal would be to just sit with myself with no internet or external entertainment/stimulus. 

i get these ideas to try techniques that i think would maybe help me in some way but often don't follow through out of fear that i'm actually not making any progress or regressing in some way from doing a technique that isn't tried and tested. maybe i need to listen to my intuition more.  

[ajasatya]

@stevegan928 hello! you're still looking for progress on these spiritual practices. one of the purposes of meditation is to kill your addiction for progress. so just sit with no goal. it feels terrifying, i know. it means you're doing it properly. keep going.

[stevegan928]

@ajasatya would you say everyone is addicted to progress? like what if ones in a position in their life where they aren't feeling/being very productive or not taking enough action? 

Edited December 17, 2016 by stevegan928
typo

[ajasatya]

@stevegan928 not everyone. it's possible to heal this addiction.

progress is not bad but you can't put your happiness on it. a day in which "nothing" was accomplished? that's still a day.

the only way to have REAL progress is when you know what you want and how to get it.

if you don't know it yet, use this opportunity to free yourself from self harassment. this opportunity is quite rare to be honest.

[Kserkkj]

@stevegan928 @ajasatya I would have to disagree with notions such as effortless effort, or nothing to attain. This is a excerpt from the book Mastering the core teachings of the buddha. 

" The "Nothing to Do" and "you are already there schools" 

On a somewhat different note, I feel the need to address, which is to say shoot down with every bit of rhetorical force I have, the notion promoted by some teachers and even traditions that there is nothing to do, nothing to accomplish, no goal to obtain, no enlightenment other than the ordinary state of being, no practice or tradition that is of value, no technique that will help. The other side of this same coin is the point of view that you already are realized, already there, already completely accomplished, and you essentially should just be able to be told this by them to understand it for yourself, which, were it true, would have been very nice of them, except that it is complete bullshit. The Nothing To Do School and the You Are Already There School are both basically vile extremes on the same basic notion that all effort to attain to mastery is already missing the point, an error of craving and grasping. They both contradict the fundamental premise of this book, namely that there is something amazing to attain and understand and that there are specific, reproducible methods that can help you do that. 

Here is a detailed analysis of what is wrong with these and related perspectives. Some defenders of these views will claim that they are the most immediate, most complete, highest and most direct teachings that one could promote, but I will claim that they do not lead to much that is good that cannot be attained by conceptual frameworks that are not nearly so problematic or easily misconstrued. 

First, these notions encourage people to not practice. The defenders can say what they like, but again and again I see people who subscribe to these sorts of notions resting on their cleverness and grand posteriors and not actually getting it in the same way that my accomplished meditator friends get it. It seems so comforting, this notion that you are already something that you, in fact, are not, or that there is nothing that you could do that would be useful. 

The notion that people already are something begs the question: What are they? These views tend to imply that they are already something such as perfect, enlightened, realized, awakened, or something even worse such as Awareness, Cosmic Consciousness, The Atman, an aspect of The Divine, etc. all of which cannot actually be found. While Buddhism does sometimes go there, using terms such as Dharmakaya and Buddha Nature, these are very slippery, high concepts that were added later and require a ton of explanation and practical experience to keep them from becoming the monsters they nearly always become in less experienced hands. 

Awakening involves clearly perceiving universal characteristics of phenomena. While one can attempt to rest comfortably in the intellectual notion that these universal characteristics are there anyway and be comforted by teachings such as easily misconstrued statements like, “I have gained nothing by complete and un-excelled enlightenment,” the whole, core, essential, root point of all this is that there is something to be gained by becoming one of the people that can actually directly perceive the true nature of things clearly enough to change fundamentally the way reality is perceived in real-time. The straight truth is that the vast majority of people do not start out being able to do anything even close to this, and most are lucky to be able to stay with three breaths in sequence before wandering off into their neurotic crap, much less understand anything liberating about those breaths. The notion that everyone already is someone who can perceive reality the way the masters do without effort in real-time is a fantastic falsehood, lie, untruth, and in short, one great load of apathy-creating insanity. 

If one goes around asking people without very good insight into these things, i.e. the unenlightened, about basic dharma points, points that are obvious to those who have learned to pay attention well, one does not find that everyone already is a person who is perceiving things at the level that makes the difference the dharma promises. Further, even those of lower levels of enlightenment generally have a hard time saying they really are able to perceive the emptiness, luminosity, selflessness, causality, transience, ephemerality, etc. of reality in real-time at all times without having to really do anything. In short, the notion that this is as easy as just being what you already are is wildly off the mark, as the vast majority of people are woefully underdeveloped on the perceptual front in question. 

Thus, all reality testing reveals that the two schools are missing a very fundamental point: while the universal characteristics are always manifesting in all things and at all times, there are those who can perceive this well and those who cannot, and meditative training, conceptual frameworks, techniques, teachers, texts, discussions and the like can all contribute to developing the internal skills and wiring to be able to realize fully what is possible, as thousands of practitioners throughout the ages have noticed. I myself have known before and after, meaning that I know what I was capable of perceiving and understanding before I underwent meditative training and after, and no amount of being fed the concept that I was already as developed as I could be, was already enlightened, was already there, had nothing to do, nothing to develop, was already as clear as I could be, was already perfectly awake, etc. was going to make the difference that practicing for thousands of hours over many years did. 

It would be like saying: you are already a concert pianist, you just have to realize it, or you already are a nuclear physicist, you just have to realize it, or you already speak every language, you just have to realize it. It would be like saying to a two-year old: you already understand everything you need to know so stop learning new things now, or to a severe paranoid schizophrenic: you already are as sane as anyone and do not need to take your medicines and should just follow the voices that tell you to kill people, or to a person with heart disease: just keep smoking and eating fried pork skins and you will be healthy, or to an illiterate person with no math skills who keeps having a hard time navigating in the modern world and is constantly ripped off: no need to learn to read and do math, as you are just fine as you are, or saying to a greedy, corrupt, corporate-raiding, white-collar criminal, Fascist, alcoholic wife-beater: hey, Dude, you are a like, beautiful perfect flower of the Now Moment, already enlightenedyou are doing and not-doing just fine, like wow, so keep up the good work, Man. 

Would you let a blind and partially paralyzed untrained stroke victim perform open-heart surgery on your child based on the notion that they already are an accomplished surgeon but just have to realize it? Would you follow the dharma teachings of people who feed other people this kind of crap? Those who imagine that everyone somehow in their development already became as clear and perceptive as they could be just by being alive is missing something very profound. Do they imagine that you can just remind people of these things and suddenly all wisdom and clarity will suddenly appear? This is mind-bogglingly naive. 

I have gained so much that is good and lost so much that is bad by learning to practice well, learning to concentrate, learning the theory, learning insight practices, going through the organic process of the stages over decades, reading the stories, reading about the lives of the great practitioners, having dharma conversations with dharma friends, debating points, wrestling with difficult concepts and how to apply them to my actual life, teaching, learning, studying, playing with the powers, writing, realizing how things are, and delving deeply into the sensate world that I am astounded that anyone would want to try to reduce something so grand, wonderful, deep, rich, amazing and profound to such a paltry, ridiculous concept as the notion that all that is already in place in everyone regardless of what they have done or not done. All those benefits, skills, abilities, powers, states, stages, experiences, insights, and fundamental perceptual changes simply were not available until I did the work, took the time, participated in the process, and no amount of anyone telling me it was otherwise would have helped or made it so. 

I know of no examples where the necessary and sufficient causes for the arising of these benefits did not involve some kind of work. In short, I say to those who persist in promoting the Nothing To Do School and the You Are Already There School: STOP IT! You are spreading craziness, and this is craziness that many people will not be able to tell is craziness, and that appears to include those who promote these fallacies. While I usually do not go so far as to tell people that there is something so deeply wrong with what they think and how they communicate it that they should stop it immediately and forever, this particular point is a great example of something I consider abhorrent and worthy of profound revision. 

Regardless of any kind intentions, the teachings of these schools take a half-truth that seems so very nice and seductive to neurotic practitioners who can barely stand another achievement trip and have such a hard time with self-acceptance, and that half-truth is distorted into sugary poison. There is no need to tie the three useful concepts of 1) no-self, 2) self-acceptance in the ordinary sense, and 3) the notion that the sensations that lead to understanding (if clearly perceived over and over again) are manifesting right here, right now, to such a perversely twisted yet seemingly benign and similar concept as the one they unfortunately promote.

 

[stevegan928]

1 hour ago, Kserkkj said:

Awakening involves clearly perceiving universal characteristics of phenomena. While one can attempt to rest comfortably in the intellectual notion that these universal characteristics are there anyway and be comforted by teachings such as easily misconstrued statements like, “I have gained nothing by complete and un-excelled enlightenment,” the whole, core, essential, root point of all this is that there is something to be gained by becoming one of the people that can actually directly perceive the true nature of things clearly enough to change fundamentally the way reality is perceived in real-time. The straight truth is that the vast majority of people do not start out being able to do anything even close to this, and most are lucky to be able to stay with three breaths in sequence before wandering off into their neurotic crap, much less understand anything liberating about those breaths. The notion that everyone already is someone who can perceive reality the way the masters do without effort in real-time is a fantastic falsehood, lie, untruth, and in short, one great load of apathy-creating insanity. 

i haven't yet read past this point in your post but spirituality doesn't need to be done in a structured, logical, or neurotic way. i would agree if one stays in intellect land all day waxing poetically about how they're God individualized and all progress/practice is an illusion you want to punch them in the jaw. i get that. but mindfulness can simply be used as a tool as well, you don't need to necessarily meditate every day but instead one can meditate when it's most necessary/convenient like when anger/fear arise, or when they're enjoying a beautiful day. over time they're most likely going to "raise consciousness" to the point where they organically meditate a total of 20 or so minutes without a schedule for meditation but rather just the remembrance that one can become present in this moment so they then choose to. 

maybe for some they take the pussy spirituality route (that i just explained) for a few years and that then purges them of the fear they once had of the more structured and hardcore path. that way one can ease themselves into spirituality.

i understand pretty much every master we hear of had a really hardcore path so i'm by no means dismissing that. but most modern teachers teach a more casual approach and these are the people teaching in the age where we know the most about enlightenment and how to achieve it. shit there are still monasteries that try to weaken the egos of their monks with the distorted notion that it's easier to transcend. but modern teachers know this is ignorant and all chakars (including lower ones) should be balanced if one wants to realize Truth fast.     

[kurt]

@stevegan928 If you can get still long enough you stop creating tendencies that contribute to the continuity of "being a person".

For example, I rarely talk these days, I work nights and avoid interaction.  Im getting quite a bit of insight into how there is nobody doing anything - in any of us, the "ego" is just a very very small link in the cause and effect chain.  Thats what you want to aim for, the understanding that the ego is a fiction, a notion inside you.  Once the knowledge is firm you can return to "normal life"

[stevegan928]

@Kserkkj i read the rest of your post hoping to find a balance between the 2 perspectives and found none. from what i read it seems like you've been indoctrinated into Buddhist dogma. i'm sure you've worked hard for your realization and are way wiser than me but consider that there are more casual approaches that the Buddhists usually miss. 

[kurt]

Modern teachers are not enlightened, they are just awakened.  Most of them are deluded 

[Pramit]

calculating yourself out of liberation. The mind of god is so amusing to read  

[stevegan928]

 

55 minutes ago, kurt said:

Modern teachers are not enlightened, they are just awakened.  Most of them are deluded 

would you say Ram Das and Eckhart Tolle are deluded? that seems short sighted. 

[kurt]

1 minute ago, stevegan928 said:

 

would you say Ram Das and Eckhart Tolle are deluded? that seems short sighted. 

Totally.  

"Short sighted" is believing their claims, when actually you know better.  

Understanding what enlightenment is, is a good place to start.  Tolle has no idea, he just thinks he does.  Read his books, they dont make sense.

Edited December 17, 2016 by kurt

[kurt]

Hey, and im not saying there not very wise men.  They are indeed, but they are not "enlightened".  Enlightenment is something else, something more than just being in the now and stopping the mind and all those other "psychological" things they speak of.  

[stevegan928]

@kurt well then we may have different definitions on enlightenment. to me they certainly don't seem like liars and if they aren't lying about the state of consciousness they're in i'd be more than grateful to achieve it myself. i'm not looking to become a "finished being" like Jesus or Gutama. i just want to become more authentic and not put on a front all the time.    

[stevegan928]

@kurt what's your definition of enlightenment? also are "you" enlightened? 

[kurt]

@stevegan928 Enlightenment is hard and fast understanding that you are not a person, you are God, and that the "person" and the manifest creation is nothing but a projection in your mind, it still appears, but is understood as unreal.  The fruits of enlightenment are freedom from the person, the world, time, space, duality, the notion of "others" suffering.  It is freedom from experience while experience happens.  Its the understanding that the only thing that is real is "I" and that this "I" is the awareness in the same in all others, therefore ultimately there are no "others", there is only "I" contrary to appearances.  

No, I'm not enlightened, never trust anyone who says their "enlightened", ultimately there is no enlightenment because there is only "I".  

The thing is, you cant be any more authentic than understanding you are God.  No more fronts, no more identifications.  You will still express this through your material vehicle, but you wont be bound by it.  

Im just saying modern teachers wont get you there because most of them dont have great teachings, they are helpful, but they dont get you enlightenment.   Remember Tolle never practiced any of his teachings, he cobbled them together.  He just woke up one day "enlightened", didnt he? But its still suspect, because if he was actually realized properly, then he would not be selling the teachings he sells, because they would not make sense to him.  

Thats my opinion anyway.

Better go with the hardcore stuff, the new age stuff leaves a lot of important things out.

[stevegan928]

@kurt all i know is it seems as though (idk maybe he's a good actor) eckhart has a "better" understanding of what reality is than i do and his everyday waking state seems as though it would be a state that i'd be happy to attain. i'm not necessarily interested in the deepest realizations available, i'll have plenty more lifetimes to realize those. i want to simply reach a point where i don't take myself and my circumstances so seriously. i realize i can achieve "higher" states of this but i'm just looking for a certain level of contentment i guess. 

17 minutes ago, kurt said:

Better go with the hardcore stuff, the new age stuff leaves a lot of important things out.

well i find that when i take the hardcore route there's a lot of self judgment from not doing the techniques perfectly so i keep in mind the more "new age" teachings because it actually helps me become less stressed and more present/aware. 

[kurt]

I think even Leo is now talking about how deluded Tolle is.  But that isnt done to help you figure out whats real, its being done to support his new claim that studying 3 million books about all the religions on earth is the way to get enlightenment.  Which is a very silly idea, if you know what youre talking about.  Studying different religions just confuses you, because they all have different ideas of what non duality is.  None of them agree with eachother.  This notion that they are all the same is a fairly new belief 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy

I think this is what Tolle bought into when trying to understand what happened to him.  

[kurt]

2 minutes ago, stevegan928 said:

@kurt all i know is it seems as though (idk maybe he's a good actor) eckhart has a "better" understanding of what reality is than i do and his everyday waking state seems as though it would be a state that i'd be happy to attain. i'm not necessarily interested in the deepest realizations available, i'll have plenty more lifetimes to realize those. i want to simply reach a point where i don't take myself and my circumstances so seriously. i realize i can achieve "higher" states of this but i'm just looking for a certain level of contentment i guess. 

well i find that when i take the hardcore route there's a lot of self judgment from not doing the techniques perfectly so i keep in mind the more "new age" teachings because it actually helps me become less stressed and more present/aware. 

Steve, you missed my point.  It doesnt matter what the state of your teacher is, what matters is can they teach you how to get there?  Any person can drive a car, but not everyone can be a driving instructor and hep you pass your test.  

I wouldnt be so sure about the major paths being hard on yourself.  Most of it is about educating you on how to live properly so that you attain realization properly.  Its not an indoctrination, its a very well thought out system of the human mind, the cosmos and reality and most of the modern teachings are taken from it.  But the bits the modern teachers left out are bits that sounded too archaic, they were not specialized enough ti understand what was being taught, and threw out very important practices.  If you do your homework you will realize that there are a ton of dualist notions lumped into todays teachings that confuse you.  Im spending too much time on this discussion.

[kurt]

8 minutes ago, stevegan928 said:

well i find that when i take the hardcore route there's a lot of self judgment from not doing the techniques perfectly so i keep in mind the more "new age" teachings because it actually helps me become less stressed and more present/aware. 

Yeah, a management of ones neurosis.  Using spirituality to manage ones neurosis is a really bad idea.  Reallybad.  Better to hit rock bottom and start again, proper teacher, proper methods, because it works.