Meditating 2 Hours Every Day - 1 Year Later (& Psychedelics vs. Meditation)

[4201]

On 03/10/2021 at 5:06 PM, Leo Gura said:

I'll just ask you this: how come when I talk to people who have done Vipassana or self-inquiry for years and decades, they still have no clue what God/reality/Love is? How is that explained?

You have no clue whether they actually have a clue or not. Any metric you use to judge the "level of awakening" of a person is ego trying to prove that it is "more awake" than another. 

[4201]

@Consilience Great post, thank you for sharing! This is very inspiring and motivating.

[Flyboy]

On 10/3/2021 at 3:48 PM, Leo Gura said:

It's not a matter of openmindedness. I am extremely openminded, but years of meditation had gotten me little closer to understanding God or Love. If only it was as easy as openmindedness. One's baseline state of consciousness and genetics have a lot to do with it.

There is no way my understanding of reality could be what it is today if all I did was meditation or Vipassana. No way in hell. Like not even 5% of the way. Maybe not even 1%. That's my experience after years of meditation. Your results may vary.

I think a hybrid approach of hardcore psychedelics and hardcore meditation will yield the best results. Of course that's double the work. Psychedelics will get you the highest understanding, but they will leave you unsatisfied with your embodiment of it.

Leo, I really think you are doing some story-telling about "baseline states of consciousness", "genetics", and "giftedness."  The skills of meditation do take time to develop, and depending on how deep your conditionings are, there might be a lot of work to do before you're in some mystical Jhana.  But the point here is that the mystical Jhana ISN'T the point.  The point is shedding those conditionings--and meditation is one of the most effective tools to do that.  The people that truly go all the way look back and say, "Holy crap, that had nothing to do with me or my body or my character at all."

It's revealing when you say that there's no way your understanding would be what it is today---do you see that you're making the assumption that your UNDERSTANDING is the most important thing?  This understanding is an egoic attachment.  Leo, the little self, wants understanding and clings to it strongly.  All of this is ultimately about your small-self ego, and while that's fine, it is not the true path. 

You are letting yourself get away with this by drawing a line between understanding and embodiment--no such line exists.

@Consilience Thanks so much for sharing your journey, it's inspiring and truly an amazing example.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Flyboy

[Shambhu]

On 10/3/2021 at 4:06 PM, Leo Gura said:

I'll just ask you this: how come when I talk to people who have done Vipassana or self-inquiry for years and decades, they still have no clue what God/reality/Love is? How is that explained?

The same question could be asked about psychedelics.  

[impulse9]

24 minutes ago, Shambhu said:

The same question could be asked about psychedelics.  

This. I personally know people who didn't do "100 trips", they did 1000s of trips, DMT, LSD, shrooms, Salvia, mescaline, DXM, even Datura. Very few of them I would consider spiritually advanced. In fact almost every single person that I personally met that I would consider spiritually advanced has never taken a psychedelic in their life.

Psychedelics are amplifiers of consciousness. If your consciousness is at a high level, they will amplify that state. If it's at a low level, they will amplify that. They're not a magic pill. Even my own excursions, while infinitely fascinating, haven't been the most revealing. The most revealing have been the few meditation induced mystical experiences. Because those stuck with me even 20 years later.

Edited October 5, 2021 by impulse9

[OneIntoOne]

On 10/3/2021 at 5:44 PM, Leo Gura said:

 

I think a hybrid approach is best. Or, in other words, find whatever produces the best results for you. You can't argue with results.

@Leo Gura Finally!

[Moksha]

@Consilience Can't we all just get along? There is only One of us after all  ?

[wma]

No one "gets it". Infinity is impossible to understand, by definition. Judging others as to whether or not they "get it" is just more ego grandstanding and perceived superiority, stemming from insecurity in oneself.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, 4201 said:

You have no clue whether they actually have a clue or not. Any metric you use to judge the "level of awakening" of a person is ego trying to prove that it is "more awake" than another. 

No, it's not ego.

Most so-called enlightened people are actually clueless about many facets of God and say wrong things. A bit of questioning them quickly reveals it.

2 hours ago, Shambhu said:

The same question could be asked about psychedelics.  

The difference is, psychedelics don't eat up 1000s of hours of your life.

[impulse9]

What good are psychedelics if they can't give you a happy and joyful existence?  From a high consciousness point of view, they just tend to complicate your life further by filing your your ego with more imagination noise. Whereas a master enjoys every single moment, however that moment might present itself.

You'll grow out of this phase Leo, just like you grew out of the phase where you thought psychedelics were useless.

[Leo Gura]

@Leilani You do cite some good NDEs which are compelling. My concern there is: 1) that's atypical, and 2) so what? since you can't consistently trigger them. NDEs are just too rare and accidental to be of practical use.

[impulse9]

Let me be a bit snarky and ask @Leo Gura, is the vast majority of your experience of life joy or is it not?

If you answer no then you really have no business judging other masters honestly, and you can't claim authority in spiritual matters.

And when you're free of ego to the extent necessary to become a master yourself, you won't be making arrogant statements such as "these Buddhists know nothing, I know better". Even if it's true, even if you're the only person on Earth who *really* gets it, you wouldn't claim such things if you actually understood the implications. Instead you would humbly and lovingly approach your students and let them find truth wherever it may lie. You would fully appreciate the scope of spirituality, and understand that not everyone is at the same level. Basically, your authority is bullshit.

And don't get me wrong, I'm roasting you out of love. <3

[Consilience]

2 hours ago, Flyboy said:

@Consilience Thanks so much for sharing your journey, it's inspiring and truly an amazing example.

Thank you dude. Really happy it resonates and appreciate your contributions to this forum as well. 
 

4 hours ago, 4201 said:

@Consilience Great post, thank you for sharing! This is very inspiring and motivating.

Thank you and you're welcome! 
 

[Consilience]

44 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The difference is, psychedelics don't eat up 1000s of hours of your life.

These 1000s of hours would be some of the most fulfilling hours of your life... Of course the ego would hate that, the idea that just being exactly as we are without some far out state could be just as meaningful as merging with God. 

Here's an insight for you - Only the mind of God would have 0 preference between and equal appreciation for awakening to itself as God in a psychedelic state and being in the grounded, sober state and just sitting. 
 

[Consilience]

A quote I randomly encountered today; it's so relevant 

"I felt in need of a great pilgrimage. So I sat still for three days and God came to me." - Kabir, a Sufi mystic

Edited October 5, 2021 by Consilience

[Javfly33]

56 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

What good are psychedelics if they can't give you a happy and joyful existence?  From a high consciousness point of view, they just tend to complicate your life further by filing your your ego with more imagination noise. Whereas a master enjoys every single moment, however that moment might present itself.

You'll grow out of this phase Leo, just like you grew out of the phase where you thought psychedelics were useless.

Yeap, I agree.

[Breakingthewall]

54 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

Let me be a bit snarky and ask @Leo Gura, is the vast majority of your experience of life joy or is it not?

If you answer no then you really have no business judging other masters honestly, and you can't claim authority in spiritual matters.

On 4/10/2021 at 0:09 AM, Consilience said:

 

It seems that Leo is not looking for happiness, he seeks to deepen. not to make a profit, but for the passion of an explorer. interesting to see where he goes

Edited October 5, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[impulse9]

Leo is mistaking intensity for awakening.

[Leilani]

@Leo Gura  Actually a lot of the people I know who have had these transcendental type of NDES continue to live in these states (to the point of it becoming an issue). Most of them if not all have moved into nature and live a much simpler more secluded life and are never the same. My friend when going out into the public will have to find a secluded place to just go and cry in great ecstasy from simply looking at her hands. Her NDE was over 20 years ago. Also Mellen Thomas Benedict was able to go back to the light at will after his NDE

Edited October 6, 2021 by Leilani

[r0ckyreed]

On 10/4/2021 at 10:29 PM, Consilience said:

Hell yes man! Good luck and more importantly, have fun! 
 

First, thank you!  

My go to meditation practice recently has been the "do nothing" technique, just sitting down in a space of complete surrender, except if I notice "trying" to surrender, then I surrender that lol. This is after having done tons of work with normal shamatha and vipassana techniques like those outlined in The Mind Illuminated or for example, Seeing That Frees/Shinzen's See Hear Feel technique. 

Honestly, if contemplation is what resonates do that! I think the big piece is the silence and stillness of formal practice. If that practice is holding a question and trying to directly experience something's fundamental nature, great! In a sense, this is what we're doing with meditation, but it's not quite as direct. 

Since you're really into contemplation, I would HIGHLY recommend Zen Flesh, Zen Bones. It's a book of koans that you can use as meditation objects during a form sit, or just read and contemplate as you read. 

Other books, The Mind Illuminated, Seeing That Frees, Mastering the Core Teachings of The Buddha, Science of Enlightenment, The Book of Not Knowing, Pursuing Consciousness. If you embodied what's in all of these books, you'd be a full blow Buddha haha. 

Thank you so much @Consilience! 
 

I think the main reason why I find contemplation more fun and natural is because I am Westerner, and that paradigm emphasizes the importance of contemplation as a way of finding answers such as Socrates, Descartes, Hume, Kant, etc.

Whereas Easterners place more emphasis on surrendering one’s self and desire for answers, to clear one’s mind which allows that no-mind to discover the answers. It’s like seeing one’s reflection in a clear pond vs. one that is noisy by thoughts.

I personally agree to a good extent with both paradigms. I do side more with Westerner’s paradigm, but I think both paradigms are correct to a good point. My concern with Eastern thought is the stigma I have seen against thinking. Meditation can help gain more awareness and clarity in thinking, but if contemplation is neglected, then a world other world of understanding thought, mind, and reality is neglected. I think it’s important to know how to think in a way that helps live an examined life. So in a way, I think the best practice is when contemplation and meditation merge as one.

Thank you for book recommendations!