Is There A Free Will? - Final Answer

[LetTheNewDayBegin]

In one of the topics about free will @Leo suggested to explore the surrendering in response.

So I went to practice the act of surrender.

After a while, I noticed that there is a struggle in my surrendering. I understood then, that I need to surrender "the struggle to surrender" itself. But how to do that without a struggle?

Then it occured to me.

The answer to "is there a free will?" is, in short, that there is no answer.

In fact, there is actually no question.

And if there is no question then there is no answer!

So if you're asking how to surrender, well..., don't! There is no question.

Just sharing.

Love.

[Egoisego]

And there is no love neither . 

 

 

 

You can do whatever the fu*k you wanna do!

[Leo Gura]

@LetTheNewDayBegin The idea of an ego surrendering is silly. Ego's can't surrender. Surrender isn't something you can will. It happens whenever it happens.

It's the same problem as stopping thinking. Ego is the thinking, so ego can't stop it.

But it can stop. Ego just won't be doing it.

[Aware]

12 minutes ago, Egoisego said:

And there is no love neither . 

You can do whatever the fu*k you wanna do!

No one cannot do anything about being sick, becoming old, and die. Change is inevitable.

Surely when one gets rid of its attachment to it, one is loving and is kind. And this is another thing one cannot do something about it.

There for, we can influence, but not actually control, and therefor we can't do whatever we like. Wont you agree Egoisego?

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@LetTheNewDayBegin The idea of an ego surrendering is silly. Ego's can't surrender. Surrender isn't something you can will. It happens whenever it happens.

It's the same problem as stopping thinking. Ego is the thinking, so ego can't stop it.

 

If surrender would happen whenever it happens, than previous situations, did not led to this one, and this one not to other situations. The previous mindset not to this mindset, and this mindset not to the next. Because nothing is permanent, there is no accident, there is just law.

Due to that physical objects, feelings, sense impressions, intellect, mental formations, perception and consciousness are unstable, come and go according to their conditions they arose and by their nature, they contain not a self, are therefor not me, you, us, them, but empty in their nature. And because there is no trace of self due to this temporary phenomenon, there is law of action leading to results.

And by this would you not agree, if one secludes from worldly activities and their sensory indulgence, one becomes mindful and firm, this leads to investigation of teachings, leads to energy, leading to joy, leading to peacefulness, leading to concentration, and surely due to this, leads to surrender, equanimity?!

There for, Ego is not THE thinking, but the result of our thinking. 

[Leo Gura]

@Motus On the practical plane, you can certainly engage in practices that makes surrender much more likely. Like long strong determination sits, or week-long meditation retreats. So practically-speaking, there is much work to be done.

A fisherman who bothers to prepare his gear, wake up early in the morning, and drive out to the lake, is gonna catch a lot more fish than one who doesn't.

[Aware]

@Leo Gura

I am sure you would agree, that after my explanation or exposition, that Ego is the result of our thinking and not the thinking itself. Due to that nothing is permanent, there is law of action and result.

Due to this same law, Ego does have a root, which is desire. Without wrong desires, there is no Ego. And so due to this same law of action and result, by right desire, one can end wrong desire. 

There for these 7 factors are to be developed and blossomed: Seclusion from the world, leading to mindfulness and becoming firm > Investigation of right Dharma's (teachings about reality) > Energy > Joy > Peacefulness > Concentration > Surrender, equanimity.

Developing these, letting them blossom, ends wrong desire, and there for ego.

Now let me reply the following:

Quote

 On the practical plane, you can certainly engage in practices that makes surrender much more likely. Like long strong determination sits, or week-long meditation retreats.

As I explained, everything is temporary, nothing is permanent, it is not a make of "much more likely" to achieve surrender. If someone could not surrender in the end, he or she did not develop the 7 factors to its end. It is by its result that one could not surrender, and not by chance.

So like ego is the result of our thinking, like this, not being able to surrender is the result as well to our previous thinking, and our deeds that came forth out of it. 

There for, surrender does not happen when it happens, it happens when developed the 7 factors of enlightenment to its blossoming.

 

[LetTheNewDayBegin]

@Motus Also, as the ego dissolves from one's mind, nothing happens.

[Leo Gura]

On 12/15/2016 at 1:29 PM, Motus said:

There for, surrender does not happen when it happens, it happens when developed the 7 factors of enlightenment to its blossoming.

And those "7 factors of blossoming" happen whenever they happen

Also I'd be more cautious of turning desire into an enemy.

Some nondual schools, like Shaiva Tantra, like to leverage desire rather than rejecting it.

Desire is a good thing. Even "wrong" desire. It's all grist for the mill of consciousness.

You might find that the path of "rejecting wrong desire" takes longer to bear fruit than the path of "just let desire do its thing while staying mindful". Or not.

[Martin123]

@Leo Gura Isn't desire there to drive us towards the realization of impermanence of things?
 

[kurt]

On 12/15/2016 at 7:49 PM, Leo Gura said:

@LetTheNewDayBegin The idea of an ego surrendering is silly. Ego's can't surrender. Surrender isn't something you can will. It happens whenever it happens.

It's the same problem as stopping thinking. Ego is the thinking, so ego can't stop it.

But it can stop. Ego just won't be doing it.

This is not true.  The ego is not thinking.  The "ego" is the sense of self created by conditioned likes and dislikes, desires and fears.  Its a very very small part of the chain of causation.

Surrender is a process of the intellect using non dual vision to gradually reprogramme the likes and dislikes so that the mind naturally rests in the vision of nonduality (spiritual purification) - the fact that there is nothing to resist in terms of everyday fears and desires.

Once nonduality is established in the mind, there is still desire, but the desire is for harmony rather than egoic resistance.  The ego is still there, but its seen as a notion in awareness and not mistakenly taken as the person.  The enlightened mind is surrender and the way the mind achieved this is through using the intellect to neutralize the egos binding likes and dislikes.

[Aware]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

And those "7 factors of blossoming" happen whenever they happen

Dear Leo,

Its again, the result of exhaustion of desire by desire. And before you quote this one very kindly, desire does not end when it ends by chance but exactly and accordingly, it ends as the result of exhaustion of fuel due to the seclusion from unwholesome deeds.

The reason this is so, is due to that Awareness is Me and you, the mother and father, never born, not knowing illness or an origin. That is why I spoke of exhaustion and seclusion from unwholesome deeds, which of course are deeds rooted in polarity (good and evil) sustaining the cycle. Living in seclusion from unwholesome deeds can be compared by a dispelling of clouds leaving the sun clear in the sky.

Things do not happen whenever they just happen Leo. Any intelligent and wise person knows things have causes. The animal kingdom does not just happen to be the animal kingdom, birds do not fly because they just happen to fly, and a tree does not blossom because it just happens to be blossoming. (Its according to the laws of nature, there for not happening whenever they happen).

People are born, get sick and die due to causes according to the laws of nature, there for not happening whenever they happen).

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Also I'd be more cautious of turning desire into an enemy.

Some nondual schools, like Shaiva Tantra, like to leverage desire rather than rejecting it.

Desire is a good thing. Even "wrong" desire. It's all grist for the mill of consciousness.

You might find that the path of "rejecting wrong desire" takes longer to bear fruit than the path of "just let desire do its thing while staying mindful". Or not.

Dear leo,

I have never said anything about turning desire into an enemy or gave causes that lead to them.

Leo, I Shiva Tantra as a non dual school, leveraging desire rather than rejecting it... I never said anything about rejecting desire in the same sense of your comparison. (I will explain later that you misunderstood both the non dual view, and the view I shared).

Leo, I have never said anything about the path of rejecting wrong desire or letting desire do its thing while staying mindful in the same manner as how you understand it.

I did have spoken about the right view, that previous situations led to this one, and this one leading to other situations. And we there for are the result of our own thinking, and are becoming what we are thinking (law of action and result).

I did have spoken about the 7 factors of enlightenment.

However if you wanna take it on wrong desire, surely must be get rid off, by accumulating good, wholesome deeds. Wrong desire = Ill will. And would not have a second thought about a serial killer that should be cautious about "turning his desire in his enemy"  if he would stop killing, I say he should stop his ill will, which is the root. You might have misunderstood it all together. Desire is not the enemy, and I have never proclaimed it is. I do proclaim, that when one is taken away by his desires, that his mind is the enemy, which can also become his best friend by giving up wrong desires (ill will).

Lastly: To take the example of the serial killer further to explain your used examples as what they truly mean (e.g Non dual schools). I say: The root of his killing problem is his ill will, which I call: Wrong desire. I teach there for to seclude from: Unwholesome views, intentions, speech, act, effort, livelihood, attention and concentration. Which leads to the end of ill will and the greatest desire to become free of mind (Whole again). The killer soon, or later realizes when concentrated on Awareness: I do not own myself, and others do not own themselves, we all are born, become sick and will eventually die. And his heart will become free from the snare of ignorance. (Realized Non dual view).

Leo, One can endlessly quote from books of many kinds of spiritual masters or schools  and their views after reading those books or reading about their schools and views, but will never truly understand the deep meaning of it (far more then intellectually grasping it), not a single one of such quotes or their understanding is understood clearly, and neither the person for whom the quote or related view was for if he doesn't purified his own mind first, and if one does have purified his own mind first, he does not need to rely on them desperately. This is however to be indeed truly be cautious of.

 

Edited December 17, 2016 by Motus