Differences between liberation and god realization

[Someone here]

Is there a difference between 'liberation' as talked about by teachers like Jim Newman and Tony parsons and Anna brown.. And 'god realization' as talked about by Leo? 

Tbh I still don't understand what are the full components of God realization.  Aside from that you are God dreaming up all of reality. 

What the above teachers teach is that there is no self with free will and choice and simply that 'all is well' and everything is literally heaven and you are already liberated in disguise of a seeker. 

[Tim R]

I think god realization includes liberation, but liberation doesn't include god realization. But I haven't experienced the level of god realization that Leo talks about so my conception might be wrong.

[Adamq8]

There is a difference imo.

I would agree with Leo that you can realize there is no self and what you thought you were is an illusion, you are the conciousness aware of everything. 

But there is also a distinct insight into the nature of what conciousness is, not just that you are IT.

Big difference 

[Someone here]

37 minutes ago, Tim R said:

I think god realization includes liberation, but liberation doesn't include god realization. 

I think it's the opposite. I haven't stumbled across a teaching more radical than Jim Newman's teaching. I think he would say that God realization is what it is and it doesn't matter to the liberated individual. 

In short.. It doesn't matter that you are God constructing reality from the liberated pov. Because nothing really matters. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Someone here

[Breakingthewall]

Liberation is when you realize in a deep way that nothing means nothing. your mind stops being a rugged landscape, full of differentiations that provoke emotions, and becomes a calm lake. one thing is the same as another, you are free. when this happens your mind stops being limited, closed, and widens. free from conceptualization, you can realize your true nature

[Terell Kirby]

God realization includes liberation from ego...specifically.

[GreenWoods]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

I think it's the opposite. I haven't stumbled across a teaching more radical than Jim Newman's teaching. I think he would say that God realization is what it is and it doesn't matter to the liberated individual. 

In short.. It doesn't matter that you are God constructing reality from the liberated pov. Because nothing really matters. 

I think pretty much all the stuff that other teachers talk about is included in proper God Consciousness. 

The reason why Leo doesn't often mention stuff like "is what it is" or "nothing really matters" is because it is so obvious and so minor compared to God Consciousness. 

What Jim Newman says is true. But it's not the whole story, it's like a few facets of awakening. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by GreenWoods

[Leo Gura]

God is beyond liberation or ego-death.

Teachers who teach liberation aren't fully awake to God.

[GreenWoods]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

Is there a difference between 'liberation' as talked about by teachers like Jim Newman and Tony parsons and Anna brown.. And 'god realization' as talked about by Leo? 

Psychedelics would make that difference very clear.

You don't take any right?

And that even though you have 5meo in your name:

Someone here

The toad was talking with you when you chose that name 

[LfcCharlie4]

As Francis Lucille called it, those teachers you mentioned are proponents of; 

Neo-Advaita. 

[The0Self]

Teachers where God realization or profound awakening has apparently occurred, might say: don't take delivery of thoughts, and you will be unaffected. You are God, and you know this but forgot (said with perfect conviction as this was literally seen in a way that transcends knowing).

Where liberation apparently is energetically recognized as all there is -- bursting the bubble/filter/awareness of the person and leaving pure-newborn-baby-like unknowing and unfiltered life full-on for nobody -- it might be said: when an apparent one takes delivery of thought, their life will seem to be affected by thoughts, but there is no suggestion to stop this, as there is already no one separate from everything to do so. There's no way for any part of this totality to actually separate and get away from what it longs for, because there aren't really parts in the first place. No connection is possible, because there's no separation.

Completely and utterly different. No connection at all.

It's all just a story anyway though. I have no clue really.

There is no way to speak the truth without paradox, therefore everything said is a story. What is beyond story can only be pointed to.

Edited October 1, 2021 by The0Self

[Someone here]

Can someone explain to me what's the difference between God realization and solipsism? 

[Flyboy]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

God is beyond liberation or ego-death.

Teachers who teach liberation aren't fully awake to God.

I disagree.  I think the term liberation is most often used to describe the end of the insight path, which very specifically means when the knot of perception is unraveled and the nonduality of the 6 senses is undeniable in every single moment (4th path in Buddhism, Rigpa in Dzogchen, etc). 

It is almost always characterized by an irreversible and permanent change in perception.  This is a very deep level of realization that transcends the lower levels of: I AM, I AM EVERYTHING, and I AM NOTHING.  It is when reality "syncs" when all filters finally dissolve, leaving only what is.  These filters and fabrications are still active on psychedelic trips, sorry to say, and in full force when you return.  "God-realization" is still standing on a ground.

What you're calling God-realization is in the I AM EVERYTHING stage, and on psychedelics it isn't even really that, because it's always a *finite conceptual* memory for you now.  I'm sure it feels really grand, but you're still clinging, so it isn't IT. 

I think the trap you fall into is that this stage can go infinitely deep into "everything", making it feel more and more elevated, especially on powerful entheogens.  True realization, however, transcends that by letting it go.  You gotta accept this one day, Leo.

[Adamq8]

@Flyboy Absolutely i agree, but I do feel that you are projecting a bit off on Leo, since language is bound to contradict itself when it comes to the path and non duality.

It is a complete letting go of all concept and experiences, and you only land here, day to day life, you become "a normie"

But that does not necessary inherently contradict the realization of GOD or what this is.

ofcourse liberation can happen, since you are GOD ?

But the liberation is not necessarily the ultimate truth or that it is past and beyond GOD, it just is different in "feeling" or in how reality appears.

But it is beyond the concept of God, like nature,  does not call it self nature,  but paradoxically it does, through minds.

But the meta logic is that, it can appear as liberation and GOD, what is that?

Or it can be exactly as it is with no "delays" pure GOD in a way.

The creativity of ___ is what is being noticed, IE GOD IE unlimited in what ever way it IS.

You don't transcend GOD, you are letting go of what you thought GOD was.

Or rather, became it, closed the loop.

But notice also, that if you compare how Leo is doing with 5 meo and the trips, is non different really from other means, but in the end all means get's transcended, there is really no where to go except here, to BE.

but it has to be clearly seen.

BEING.

But it does not necessarily entail that psychedelics is pure delusion.

It just shows the magic the universe is capable of pulling off, like a magician pulling a rabbit out of the hat.

Freedom is letting go of it all, becoming a baby almost in innocence. 

But that is not necessarily Leo's goal either, he cares about exploring and going deeper, atleast it has been like that if one looks at his path.

I totally agree that psychedelics can be a road to Hell in terms of getting you distracted from the path. 

And IT sure can be of Mind the experience with  psychedelics and even meditation,  but Mind expands to Infinity, and infinity is literally infinity, all possibilitys, but it is mind that in a way collapses potentiality into actuality. 

Exploration is infinite, literally, it goes on forever, but both liberation and exploration has happend and will happen "again" I mean how did you forget liberation to begin with?

I think it is just different ways of communicating the nameless, ultimatly everything has to be letting go off.

But at the same time, wtf is there to do ?

I think you guys would get along just fine if you could talk and listen like babys, soaking in each other, and you would realize that you are the same and you are just arguing about yourselfs. 

or non selfs.

52 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

I disagree.  I think the term liberation is most often used to describe the end of the insight path, which very specifically means when the knot of perception is unraveled and the nonduality of the 6 senses is undeniable in every single moment (4th path in Buddhism, Rigpa in Dzogchen, etc). 

It is almost always characterized by an irreversible and permanent change in perception.  This is a very deep level of realization that transcends the lower levels of: I AM, I AM EVERYTHING, and I AM NOTHING.  It is when reality "syncs" when all filters finally dissolve, leaving only what is.  These filters and fabrications are still active on psychedelic trips, sorry to say, and in full force when you return.  "God-realization" is still standing on a ground.

What you're calling God-realization is in the I AM EVERYTHING stage, and on psychedelics it isn't even really that, because it's always a *finite conceptual* memory for you now.  I'm sure it feels really grand, but you're still clinging, so it isn't IT. 

I think the trap you fall into is that this stage can go infinitely deep into "everything", making it feel more and more elevated, especially on powerful entheogens.  True realization, however, transcends that by letting it go.  You gotta accept this one day, leo.

[The0Self]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

Can someone explain to me what's the difference between God realization

Unreal finite appearing as infinite. Not even that. It's quite indescribable. Time certainly disappears. All there is, is the Big Bang. Very, very, incredibly high state of consciousness. Absolute infinity stretching timelessly through nothing, apparently. Awareness still identified essentially as everyone (beyond life and death), or all there is, or everything, or boundless emptiness (empty fullness). Sometimes it takes a different character and it's like there's simply no difference between anything, there's only everything, and perception is just absolute infinity in that form, fluctuating in and as nothingness, with no finite controller; only pure God. Separation or awareness in its usual appearance can seem to apparently collapse. And it's a temporary state but it seems to result in another permanent state change.

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

and solipsism?

Solipsism is the sense or belief that one (one's awareness) is all that is. There is no one else and I am here now present. Everyone is me. I am alone.

God realization (or rather the apparently resulting state change) is a step beyond that: One is everyone. I am not alone. I am God. We are one and (from the view of the "realized super-person") all I can see is God, who I really am.

At any time for no reason it can apparently be recognized that there is no God and there never was a me -- and then there's just what's appearing to happen, with no other or cause or meaning or limit. Everything is all there is -- call it whatever; God, freedom, liberation, infinity, nothing, absolute, what is and is not... This, unconditional love, unknowing...

 

Intuitive recognitions -- not worth talking about because they're beyond logical explanation -- can also occur in the background of all that. Pulling the apparent one toward something else beyond itself. Which totally eclipses any paragraph before this one and renders them utterly useless. And that's not to say the intuitive recognitions are more useful -- a paradox.

It's just boundlessness appearing as a journey up the dream of consciousness so that boundlessness can have an experience of hoping to find itself, in time, just for the hell of it -- for no reason at all. There is only absolute inconceivable blind (and blinding) freedom.

Edited October 1, 2021 by The0Self

[Someone here]

@The0Self you cannot falsify solipsism can you? 

[The0Self]

24 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@The0Self you cannot falsify solipsism can you? 

Not logically. It's just an understanding loop that can appear. Nothingness is infinitely bigger than a space or a logical reality in which an I could appropriate as its own.

[Flyboy]

@Adamq8 I agree with most of that  And I also think psychedelics are powerful tools.

But I really recoil at Leo's movement into "I'm more enlightened than everyone else" territory, which I think is a road to delusion.  Look at what has happened over the last few years:

Genuine spiritual seeker→

→Repeated frustration and inability to make progress on the meditative/yoga path

→Increasing use of psychedelics

→Making outlandish claims of "more" infinity than anyone else

→Creating a new level of enlightenment called God-realization to reify those claims and trump everyone else

→Stubbornly defending those claims against valid criticism by ignoring it, demonizing it, or using a copout cover-all defense ("you're just imagining X")

→Presupposing his own correctness and using that to discredit basically EVERYONE

This progression is really sad to see.  The self-bias and need to defend his brand and his "model" is becoming ever more obvious, in addition to the fact that Leo literally does not understand the nuance of the actual path to permanent realization (and has demonstrated this every time he talks about it).  He's happy to do the "big work" but not the "small work".  The small work is the roots of delusion and ego, and you will never kill the weed until you do the small work.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Flyboy

[Adamq8]

1 hour ago, The0Self said:

Unreal finite appearing as infinite. Not even that. It's quite indescribable. Time certainly disappears. All there is, is the Big Bang. Very, very, incredibly high state of consciousness. Absolute infinity stretching timelessly through nothing, apparently. Awareness still identified essentially as everyone (beyond life and death), or all there is, or everything, or boundless emptiness (empty fullness). Sometimes it takes a different character and it's like there's simply no difference between anything, there's only everything, and perception is just absolute infinity in that form, fluctuating in and as nothingness, with no finite controller; only pure God. Separation or awareness in its usual appearance can seem to apparently collapse. And it's a temporary state but it seems to result in another permanent state change.

Solipsism is the sense or belief that one (one's awareness) is all that is. There is no one else and I am here now present. Everyone is me. I am alone.

God realization (or rather the apparently resulting state change) is a step beyond that: One is everyone. I am not alone. We are one and (from the view of the "realized super-person") all I can see is God, who I really am.

Intuitive recognitions -- not worth talking about because they're beyond logical explanation -- can also occur in the background of all that. Pulling the apparent one toward something else beyond itself. Which totally eclipses any paragraph before this one and renders them utterly useless. And that's not to say the intuitive recognitions are more useful -- a paradox.

It's just boundlessness appearing as a journey up the dream of consciousness so that boundlessness can have an experience of hoping to find itself, in time, just for the hell of it.

?? 

[Adamq8]

40 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

@Adamq8 I agree with most of that  And I also think psychedelics are powerful tools.

But I really recoil at Leo's movement into "I'm more enlightened than everyone else" territory, which I think is a road to delusion.  Look at what has happened over the last few years:

Genuine spiritual seeker > Repeated frustration and inability to make progress on the meditative/yoga path > Increasing use of psychedelics > Making outlandish claims of "more" infinity than anyone else > Creating a new level of enlightenment called God-realization to reify those claims and trump everyone else > Stubbornly defending those claims against valid criticism by ignoring it, demonizing it, or using a copout cover-all defense (you're imagining that X) > Presupposing his own correctness and using that to discredit basically EVERYONE

This progression is really sad to see.  The self-bias and need to defend his brand and his "model" is becoming ever more obvious, in addition to the fact that Leo literally does not understand the nuance of the actual path to permanent realization (and has demonstrated this every time he talks about it).  He's happy to do the "big work" but not the "small work".  The small work is the roots of delusion and ego, and you will never kill the weed until you do the small work.

Aaah yes I understand where you are coming from, and I grant you that when you put it like that it do "make sense" like it could really be true, it seems convincing at the first glance , but I am at the same time conflicted, i really feel that Leo is authentic, behind the persona there is spirit and it speaks as well, but I've heard from close friends etc that they can experience him as a little "full " of him self. 

When I first came across Leo i couldnt watch him, not ready or just didnt resonate, but maybe a year later i came across him and it did resonate more then before.

But it took alot of episodes listening to Leo that made me realize that, he might not have a likeable personality according to some, but he is coming from a place of sharing our true nature, even if it is reflected through a "finite" mind. 

But I do in my heart feel this, that his insight is valid, because ive verified alot of it directly, but that when he is sharing his rememberence of true nature it can easily be misunderstod as, i am much much more advanced then you all, and we interpret that as he has a large ego, who do he think he is claimimg this etc etc'  because  of how his "attitude" is, but I am saying that, despite his way of delivering and certain claims, he is legit.

Sorry for the rant ??

Thanks for sharing your opinion btw, in a mature and grown up level.?