Leo Do you agree with Rupert Spira?

[SQAAD]

At 03:06:11 of this video Rupert talks about the nature of the finite mind. He claims that the only means we have to explore external Reality is through perception and thought. The finite mind filters everything it knows through its own limitations and the finite mind cannot perceive reality in the absence of those limitations.

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Thought and perception are tools of the finite mind to know anything. But these tools are limited. The faculties of thought and perception impose their own reality on the reality we are exploring. Just as someone who wears orange tinted glasses will always see orange snow. For the same reason it is not possible to know the nature of reality when we explore it with the finite mind. Which is what science is currently doing. If that was all there was , then we could never know the nature of reality. 

Is there any element of reality that we have unmediated access (access that is not mediated through perception)? And the answer is yes. There is one element of reality whose knowledge we have direct access . That is our knowledge of ourselves. Our awareness of being aware is not mediated through perception.

 

Leo what do you think about all of this? Is Rupert Spira God realised? I think your claim is that we have unmediated access to reality. Why Rupert is creating duality between perception and reality?

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by SQAAD

[Leo Gura]

Rupert is clearly God-realized to a decent degree, but I don't think it is the highest degree.

There are definitely degrees of God-realization. It is not a binary state.

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I think your claim is that we have unmediated access to reality. Why Rupert is creating duality between perception and reality?

He is using your own dualistic paradigm to communicate with you.

I don't think that for him there is much distinction between perception and unmediated access.

It's just that he has to use some kind of words and concepts to communicate with you, and all words and concepts are inherently dualistic.

So I don't fault him for anything you quote. He's just doing the best he can given the limitations of language.

What humans normally call "perception" is Absolute Truth. I don't doubt that Spira understands this.

I would however say that Spira is not fully conscious of what other minds are. That would be where I would disagree with him a bit. He denies that he is imagining other minds. But you can become conscious that you are imaging them. That's the biggest thing I would nitpick about Spira's teachings. Otherwise they are very on-point.

[Godishere]

@Leo Gura that's kind of a big thing ? if you are not conscious that other minds are imaginary you're not awake imo.

Shows the difference in levels between self inquiry and psychedelic awakening.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Godishere

[SQAAD]

@Leo Gura

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

He denies that he is imagining other minds. But you can become conscious that you are imaging them. That's the biggest thing I would nitpick about Spira's teachings. Otherwise they are very on-point.

I didn't know that he denies imagining other minds.. I don't know what his position about other minds is, i would like to know.

It kinda doesn't make sense though because i think he believes that this is a dream that Consciousness dreams...

Edited October 1, 2021 by SQAAD

[RMQualtrough]

Rupert is brilliant, and is generally the best person to debate materialists because he ALWAYS points to direct experience, which is always irrefutable.

By contrast Kastrup is science minded so challenges materialism (very well, though) via scientific type logic.

Leo insists on certain vocabulary which can alienate materialists, and tends to just claim they need to become more conscious to get it.

There's little point preaching to the choir, which is why I like Rupert's work. He did a podcast episode with Sam Harris snd Sam could not disagree. As long as you use direct experience no person could ever claim you to be wrong.

[Adamq8]

26 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

Rupert is brilliant, and is generally the best person to debate materialists because he ALWAYS points to direct experience, which is always irrefutable.

By contrast Kastrup is science minded so challenges materialism (very well, though) via scientific type logic.

Leo insists on certain vocabulary which can alienate materialists, and tends to just claim they need to become more conscious to get it.

There's little point preaching to the choir, which is why I like Rupert's work. He did a podcast episode with Sam Harris snd Sam could not disagree. As long as you use direct experience no person could ever claim you to be wrong.

True that, and his masterpiece, The nature of conciousness,  amazing book by Rupert.

 

[Agoy]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I would however say that Spira is not fully conscious of what other minds are. That would be where I would disagree with him a bit. He denies that he is imagining other minds. But you can become conscious that you are imaging them. That's the biggest thing I would nitpick about Spira's teachings. Otherwise they are very on-point.

Does he deny that though?

this vid was the first that came to mind and may not directly correlate with your claim, but as far as I'm aware Spira would claim that others/'other minds' appear in the mind as the content of one's awareness.

to me that just seems like a different use of semantics

[LfcCharlie4]

My favorite part about Rupert, and why I believe he's the next 'teacher' to go Eckhart style mainstream is because of how accessible his teachings are through making it all about Happiness. 

Most people want to be happy right? 

Therefore, as he makes more & more public appearances I can only see his teachings exponentially growing. 

As he says, this time period is perfectly suited for what him & Francis call the 'Direct Path.' 

In an age where the majority of humans can't sit still for 10 minutes, do you think a traditional Zen / Advaita path is really what's going to spread truth? I highly doubt it, personally. 

Imo, he is the next logical teacher to go truly mainstream since Tolle, because his teachings are of course deeper than Eckharts, yet he is a 'normal' bloke & very relatable- Wife, Kids, Western, Went through the path himself etc. 

[Purple Man]

Rupert is a such a talented teacher. One of the few alive that don´t look like a clown compared to the greats in the near/far past.  And if there is something he would never claim is that there is separation between "perception" and "reality". Actually much of his discourse is based on the illusion of this separation. 

That said, I don´t think his take on individual minds coexisting is outrageous or shows minor awakening. "One Source-many minds" is a well established reality, I think, for most of us. Whether or not those individual perspectives are lived simultaneously or one by one is a debatable issue, in my opinion.

[GreenWoods]

1 hour ago, Purple Man said:

 Whether or not those individual perspectives are lived simultaneously or one by one is a debatable issue, in my opinion.

If bubbles exist simultaneously, then that means you can't be God, because there is something outside your bubble, outside you.

Therefore the highest awakening you can have from that pov is that you are a part of God, which is very different from God Consciousness. 

[Purple Man]

3 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

If bubbles exist simultaneously, then that means you can't be God, because there is something outside your bubble, outside you.

Therefore the highest awakening you can have from that pov is that you are a part of God, which is very different from God Consciousness. 

Actually I think there is a semantics problem.  When I spoke about the bubbles, I did not mean that the real "I" is inside it. At least from my experience, the individual body-mind bubble is clearly perceived by "I", and "I" is that which creates and sustains the bubble.

[hoodrow trillson]

There was one video I saw (I think it was Buddah at the gas station youtube channel) and the host started pulling out wise words and phrases--almost as if he wanted to 'battle' to see who knows the most spiritual stuff and Rupert shot him down and made him look into the present moment.  It was delicious lmao

[RMQualtrough]

7 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

If bubbles exist simultaneously, then that means you can't be God, because there is something outside your bubble, outside you.

Therefore the highest awakening you can have from that pov is that you are a part of God, which is very different from God Consciousness. 

Bubble = Object. Objects appear as many things. You are one of these objects. It's not possible for you to read my mind because our human minds are separate objects...

It's the subject that is singular and undifferentiated. You the object (human mind) can't ever be the entirety of "God" because you are finite and limited which is the ONLY way experience and things could ever exist.

I don't see any way this is escapable. If you the human ever completely merged with God you'd be dead, because the object would need to retract back into that void... And yet ither objects still exist so what has even bern accomplished?

[Adamq8]

21 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

Bubble = Object. Objects appear as many things. You are one of these objects. It's not possible for you to read my mind because our human minds are separate objects...

It's the subject that is singular and undifferentiated. You the object (human mind) can't ever be the entirety of "God" because you are finite and limited which is the ONLY way experience and things could ever exist.

I don't see any way this is escapable. If you the human ever completely merged with God you'd be dead, because the object would need to retract back into that void... And yet ither objects still exist so what has even bern accomplished?

I am curious about why it is impossible to "experience " non duality, is it like deep sleep or something? Just a jump in "time" but it is pure bliss to  sleep, the best ever ?

Why do we enjoy deep sleep so much, is it because we like "non existence " ?, but it clearly also shows, that it is impossible to experience non existence and thats why it is a jump in time, same with death perhaps, or it could completely be different "bardo" realms,  or just pure conciousness, no perceptions just bliss within itself,  but since it is nothing it paradoxically is "looking" so hard for itself that it explodes into infinity, like , this is EXISTENCE, 

And then it also notices and creates itself, when nothing looks into the mirror it only sees infinity, but infinity / all possibilitys is somehow not ultimately true, or it is but it is not the whole truth, there is an intelligence and an order maintained, it is flowing effortlessly, a creativity, what is it that is creative, awake, timeless, in my life?

This nothing is somehow self negating itself and thus becoming Infinite Mind, the power of Zero becomes itself as manifestation, it created itself,  infinite intelligence, infinite power , infinite love, but that only "works" when there is "other", this is me and everything else is not me, but in fact nothing has absolutly no limits, it is what it is, but as it "takes" "form" of Infinite Mind / Imagination, it creates the universe,  or rather becomes it, an analogy, imagine infinite mind daydreaming, but because there is nothing else,  it starts dreaming everything and it has been dreaming forever now, so much so that we became lost in our own dream, but this is the only way to share love, this is the "tragedy" of existence, the seperate self longs for the unlimited,  but paradoxically when it is found, the game is more or less over, and to remember that there never was another, so infinite power or intelligence does not mean anything without "others" because there is only formless infinity.

There comes a possibility sometimes to radically destroy the illusion of existence and objective reality, but most won't take that step and starts to forget it instead.

Hilarious tbh ???

This is just a story tho, but it is also coming from direct insight. 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, hoodrow trillson said:

There was one video I saw (I think it was Buddah at the gas station youtube channel) and the host started pulling out wise words and phrases--almost as if he wanted to 'battle' to see who knows the most spiritual stuff and Rupert shot him down and made him look into the present moment.  It was delicious lmao

Yeah, but that does not imply the highest consciousness.

It's actually easy to use the present moment to avoid the highest consciousness.

[hoodrow trillson]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, but that does not imply the highest consciousness.

It's actually easy to use the present moment to avoid the highest consciousness.

Well to be fair, he made him look inwards to the truth instead of talking about scriptures is what I should say lol

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, hoodrow trillson said:

Well to be fair, he made him look inwards to the truth instead of talking about scriptures is what I should say lol

That's fine. Of course "battling" about this stuff is not right.

There is only so much Spira can do with words. I don't fault him for that.

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Adamq8 said:

I am curious about why it is impossible to "experience " non duality, is it like deep sleep or something? Just a jump in "time" but it is pure bliss to  sleep, the best ever ?

Why do we enjoy deep sleep so much, is it because we like "non existence " ?, but it clearly also shows, that it is impossible to experience non existence and thats why it is a jump in time, same with death perhaps, or it could completely be different "bardo" realms,  or just pure conciousness, no perceptions just bliss within itself,  but since it is nothing it paradoxically is "looking" so hard for itself that it explodes into infinity, like , this is EXISTENCE, 

And then it also notices and creates itself, when nothing looks into the mirror it only sees infinity, but infinity / all possibilitys is somehow not ultimately true, or it is but it is not the whole truth, there is an intelligence and an order maintained, it is flowing effortlessly, a creativity, what is it that is creative, awake, timeless, in my life?

This nothing is somehow self negating itself and thus becoming Infinite Mind, the power of Zero becomes itself as manifestation, it created itself,  infinite intelligence, infinite power , infinite love, but that only "works" when there is "other", this is me and everything else is not me, but in fact nothing has absolutly no limits, it is what it is, but as it "takes" "form" of Infinite Mind / Imagination, it creates the universe,  or rather becomes it, an analogy, imagine infinite mind daydreaming, but because there is nothing else,  it starts dreaming everything and it has been dreaming forever now, so much so that we became lost in our own dream, but this is the only way to share love, this is the "tragedy" of existence, the seperate self longs for the unlimited,  but paradoxically when it is found, the game is more or less over, and to remember that there never was another, so infinite power or intelligence does not mean anything without "others" because there is only formless infinity.

There comes a possibility sometimes to radically destroy the illusion of existence and objective reality, but most won't take that step and starts to forget it instead.

Hilarious tbh ???

This is just a story tho, but it is also coming from direct insight. 

I would say we don't enjoy deep sleep because enjoyment is an experience which can't happen in absolute nonduality, I think we enjoy the feeling of refreshment upon waking. I also don't really think there are realms the human mind can go to given it's main location of origin is within this particular dream, which I don't think we have control over. Rupert has a video on that called something like "there's no choice in infinity".

If the entire top down nature of things is altered, I find everything stays the same. Yes a human self is a brain made of atoms and neurons etc but the nature of those things is mental? So the brain is just what the human mind looks like. Destroy that and it is reduced back into energy etc which presumably has no subjective experience? So God-self can't see through us anymore but sees through others as it is doing currently.

Yeah there has to be other to have experience. Without duality experience is impossible. Rupert also has great dream analogies to show that, and also some which explain well why it could not just experience infinity and can only experience things via finitude and limit. It occurs to me that to experience red for example, limit is completely necessary because you can't see red unless the red is NOT seen by the viewer as being blue and green and yellow etc. Red itself is limited to one singular thing.

I think this is a necessary and natural element of infinity, rather than intelligence etc. I think that because the void has no property at all, it is literally nothing (AKA infinity AKA all potential somethings), so must experience things like intelligence inside duality.

I actually found far more insight in dissociative dualistic states of being, than in the states where I am everything. It was when subject and object became distinctly split rather than merged that I could know what the subject was. And it was like the mirror looking back at nothingness you described, it can't ever be seen but can be known via the somethings. I didn't see infinity there but knew total nothing. Infinity is more a thing I felt when having psychedelic induced out of body experiences (no form for the brain to attach consciousness to so it becomes sizeless and locationless).

When a human mind wins the game it doesn't exist anymore haha, and this is an absolute inevitability all of us face. The game never ends! There's no enlightenment because there is infinite duality for all eternity! Without "self", there is no entity to win the game or be enlightened, rather the object (a morphing collection of experience called the human mind) just stops being "imagined" by the void... That is what I'm thinking anyway.

 

[GreenWoods]

8 hours ago, Purple Man said:

Actually I think there is a semantics problem.  When I spoke about the bubbles, I did not mean that the real "I" is inside it. At least from my experience, the individual body-mind bubble is clearly perceived by "I", and "I" is that which creates and sustains the bubble.

 

3 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

Bubble = Object. Objects appear as many things. You are one of these objects. It's not possible for you to read my mind because our human minds are separate objects...

It's the subject that is singular and undifferentiated. You the object (human mind) can't ever be the entirety of "God" because you are finite and limited which is the ONLY way experience and things could ever exist.

@Purple Man and @RMQualtrough

God shapeshifts into the whole bubble. All of God becomes that bubble. Nothing else exists.

3 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

 If you the human ever completely merged with God you'd be dead, because the object would need to retract back into that void... And yet ither objects still exist so what has even bern accomplished?

@RMQualtrough There is no merging because there are not two. There is only One, God. 

You could metaphorically imagine God as a bubble of awareness that can dream up anything. What we call increasing consciousness is when the imaginations of illusions dissolve and God becomes aware of Itself as God. There are infinite degrees to that. But after a certain point it can clearly be called God Consciousness. It doesn't matter much whether some imaginations like the room and body sensations are still present. The important thing is whether God is conscious of itself or not.

But there of course are states of consciousness where there are no imaginations like your room or body sensations. These states can be higher, but are not necessarily so. The measure of wokeness is the extend to which God is conscious of being God.  

[RMQualtrough]

@GreenWoods The dreamed up things are objects right? And these objects are finite. That is why I enjoy the waves in the ocean metaphor. The object arises and falls away back into void. We do witness this happen first hand when a thought arises as an object and then falls back into void.

The human mind will always be an object in duality. If you remove all contents of the human mind, experience through that lens ceases entirely. I would say perceptions are unique. I don't know who came up with "bubbles" but perceptions can connect together to form larger "objects" it seems... Obviously all of your sensory perceptions are not identical but are perceived in the same space. BUT you cannot telepathically know the contents of my mind right now. Because these objects are unique expressions right?

It would be impossible to "experience" nonduality for obvious reasons. It would be impossible for experience to exist without extreme limitation and finitude. To see red you have to perceive red, and that perceived red cannot be ANYTHING ELSE but itself... Which out of an infinity, is insanely limited. Like throwing a dart into the galaxy and hitting some random atom within the entire universe, but even more limited than that.

I don't believe that any amount of God-consciousness could allow the human mind of Leo to suddenly be able to see through my eyes. Because the moment there is an object like the mind it is limited to being itself like how red is red in absence of blue green etc. When the object ceases it is just destruction of object back into void. Wake up after anaesthesia and the object returns and with it, inherent limitation.

The human mind will always be a finite limited object and always be in duality. The appearance of duality is eternal. It's an impossibility to bring your human mind with you when the non-experience of nonduality is achieved, so you just have some sort of general anaesthetic effect... There's not really a "you" anyway so I can't accurately say "you" were in nonduality before birth, and same upon death. But from the perspective of the human mind it is like that I think.