How Many Eggs a Day is too much

[Christopher03]

I am eating at least 4-5 whole eggs a day trying to bulk up. Are there gonna be negative consequences on my cholesterol levels? I am 17 and fairly active 

[Michael569]

Yes there might be, potentially. The curve after which eggs bend towards harmful is somewhere around 8-10 eggs per week. Eggs aren't even that great of a protein. Try some tofu scramble you won't notice a difference if you spice it right  Wider variety is always beneficial for the body 

[Opo]

22 hours ago, Michael569 said:

Eggs aren't even that great of a protein. 

They have great absorption. 

What metric do you use? 

[Michael569]

1 hour ago, Opo said:

They have great absorption. 

Even if that was true (I don't know, haven't studied the absorption rate of amino acids from different foods), you are getting 6 grams of protein per egg while getting 150 - 250 milligrams of cholesterol. There are just much better ways to obtain that protein while the food being "cleaner" and supplying your body with even more nutritional value. Even if the aim is to be shredded and build muscle, still the typical egg / oat / meat diet is just so outlived and so incredibly limiting. Every single bodybuilder out there eats the same way where there are so many other things they could be eating without gaining fat.  

For example, if instead of 6 eggs for breakfast you'd do tofu scramble from 250 grams of tofu you'd be getting equal amount of protein, zero cholesterol, zero saturated fat and shitload of calcium, protective phytoestrogens and a decent amount of copper, manganese, iron and phosphorus. Granted 250g of organic tofu will cost 2.5 USD where 6 eggs may cost 1 dollar if you get them from the cheapest factory-farmed hens, it is still a cost I'm willing to pay every single time. 

Long term health is ALWAYS more important than some short term gains. 

1 hour ago, Opo said:

What metric do you use? 

what you mean? 

[Opo]

7 hours ago, Michael569 said:

Even if that was true (I don't know, haven't studied the absorption rate of amino acids from different foods), you are getting 6 grams of protein per egg while getting 150 - 250 milligrams of cholesterol. There are just much better ways to obtain that protein while the food being "cleaner" and supplying your body with even more nutritional value. Even if the aim is to be shredded and build muscle, still the typical egg / oat / meat diet is just so outlived and so incredibly limiting. Every single bodybuilder out there eats the same way where there are so many other things they could be eating without gaining fat.  

Usually bodybuilders now eat a lot of egg whites and then they put in an egg or two so they reduce fats. 

7 hours ago, Michael569 said:

For example, if instead of 6 eggs for breakfast you'd do tofu scramble from 250 grams of tofu you'd be getting equal amount of protein, zero cholesterol, zero saturated fat and shitload of calcium, protective phytoestrogens and a decent amount of copper, manganese, iron and phosphorus. Granted 250g of organic tofu will cost 2.5 USD where 6 eggs may cost 1 dollar if you get them from the cheapest factory-farmed hens, it is still a cost I'm willing to pay every single time. 

Long term health is ALWAYS more important than some short term gains. 

What do you think of just focusing on the macros and then getting the nutrients from supplements. 

It seems silly to me but I'd like to hear your opinion. 

7 hours ago, Michael569 said:

what you mean? 

The things you named above. 

Like valuing health. 

[The0Self]

From my research there can be issues with more than 2 eggs a day over the long term. It wasn't just the cholesterol though, it was the choline or something but I can't remember exactly. However if you eat 4-5 eggs at a time but only did so 2-3x a week, or nearly daily but only for short periods (a couple weeks), there would probably be no negative effects.

[Raphael]

On 10/1/2021 at 1:38 PM, Michael569 said:

Yes there might be, potentially. The curve after which eggs bend towards harmful is somewhere around 8-10 eggs per week.

I currently eat 19 eggs per week. I eat one egg every day in the morning + 4 eggs three times per week.

What could be the consequences for my health?

[Michael569]

14 hours ago, The0Self said:

it was the choline or something but I can't remember exactly.

Choline being turned into trimethylamine-N oxide (TMAO) in the gut & liver could be the theory? 

3 hours ago, Raphael said:

I currently eat 19 eggs per week. I eat one egg every day in the morning + 4 eggs three times per week.

What could be the consequences for my health?

I'm inclined to say , "possibly yes" if you kept that up for the next 20 years but all the largest meta-analyses reviewing egg consumption in relation to heart disease and cancer are just too f-ing inconclusive and contradictory so I can't really tell for sure. I'd probably try to cut it down to 1 per day or 2 every other day and replace the other ones with other food alternatives. Personally, I don't think it is a good idea to consume a large number of eggs and I usually advise my clients to keep it to a lower amount (as indicated above). 

But I think it also depends on what you eat those eggs with. A typical breakfast made of scramled eggs, bacon and white toast bread is a disaster if eaten frequently but scrambled eggs eaten with a huge bowl of vegetable salad and beans and maybe like a high fibre whole grain seeded bread with hummus is a different story and that fibre and all those polyphenols could possibly mitigate some of those harmful elements...at least theoretically. 

15 hours ago, Opo said:

Usually bodybuilders now eat a lot of egg whites and then they put in an egg or two so they reduce fats. 

well if there is one thing bodybuilders know shit about it's nutrition  They know carbs and proteins and fats. They are masters at macro calculation & manipulation but most of them don't give rats about potential long term consequences of eating 350 grams of protein a day. Maximise protein minimise carbs is the name of the game. 

15 hours ago, Opo said:

What do you think of just focusing on the macros and then getting the nutrients from supplements

depends where those macros are coming from. But if it was chicken & rice and multivitamin capsule, you'd be possibly setting yourself up for cancer 

[SQAAD]

I also eat many eggs. Like 3 whole eggs per day. But no more than that. The cholesterol could be a problem for some people longer term. It's good to check your cholesterol levels and see how it affects you.

[Ora]

The cholesterol in eggs is actually healthy. There's a myth that's perpetuated about all cholesterol=bad. Having high cholesterol is actually protective as long as it's the good one.

Eggs are amazing, especially the yolks. One of very few foods with real vitamin a (not beta carotene) and vitamin e in good amounts. Best to have runny yolks to get those vitamins in tact though. You'll see the color of the yolk go from orange to yellow as they oxidize. Free range eggs are also superior to soy and corn fed eggs. If the yolk is light yellow, they most likely been fed a soy and corn diet which leads to low lvls of vit a and e as well as being higher in unsaturated fats which is toxic.

Also if your not using eggs for protein and bulking, you could not eat all the whites, because the whites of the egg are actually a little unhealthy. I forget why exactly but I think the albumin or something messes with the gut and can enter the blood stream where you don't want it. When cooked it's less of a problem, though still a small problem. Dr mercola only eats the yolks and gives the whites to his personal trainer lol.

Michael you used the argument about tofu having no saturated fat being a good thing, but most people these days will agree saturated fats are healthy. The whole saturated fat is bad and hardens arteries has been debunked. People are throwing out their toxic margarine and unsaturated fats (which are highly oxidized) in favor of saturated fats as its metabolism boosting along with other benefits.

In general I'm still on the fence about tofu. It's loaded with unsaturated fats which leads to storing fat in the body. Which is why they feed it to livestock, to fatten them up. They actually tried feeding cattle coconut oil because the myth it makes you fat,, but the cattle ended up losing weight! Then they found how corn and soy fatten them up so they switched to those.

But there are possible benefits eating it sometimes for certain people who are at risk of breast cancer and such diseases. I wouldn't use it for anything other than medicine though.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Ora

[Michael569]

1 hour ago, Ora said:

Michael you used the argument about tofu having no saturated fat being a good thing, but most people these days will agree saturated fats are healthy

@Ora I wrote a huge response addressing different parts of that message but then I deleted it as I realised I'd just be stirring an argument and a long debate which wouldn't help anybody. We both have different sources, both have done our own research and came to many similar but also many different conclusions. I'll just leave it at that. 

One thing I'll say thou is...unless you have done your own in-depth research into the literature on saturated fats and cholesterol don't be too tempted to make claims such as "saturated fats is healthy and cholesterol is not unhealthy". There is an extreme amount of research that would contradict you on both points but it needs someone with the capacity and background to be able to dissect all those meta analyses and cohort studies for us. Not cherry-pick, anyone can do that. I don't have those abilities and I presume neither have you (no offence). Don't be Eric Berg who thinks he can make a correlation based on 2 individual studies. It ain't that simple. 

[Ora]

i dont believe im spreading misinformation and pointing them towards foods that could cause harm. i believe the exact opposite actually. Its archaic to still believe saturated fats are harmful for health and unsaturated fats healthy. i believe the method of action for pufas being bad is because PUFAs cause downregulating of thyroid function, downregulating of thyroid lowers metabolism, raises stress hormones like cortisol, and promotes estrogen dominance. so its really not PUFAS themselves, but the cascade of effects they cause, in addition to being PUFAS themselves because most PUFA oils that have been extracted are rancid since they are so volatile and prone to oxidation unless together with polyphenols such as olive oil. this is NOT the same as eating nuts and seeds. how many nuts and seeds can you eat in a day? however many you eat it wouldnt even equal one tablespoon of the PUFA oils extracted from them. not to mention a lot of nuts are not as heavy in PUFA like almonds and macadamias which are more heavy in MUFA which isnt that bad. 

i wish i could find studies about the coconut oil feeding to cattle, but i can only find quotes by Ray peat claiming it happened in 1940, but no studies. And no i doubt they just fed them spoonfuls of coconut oil, it would probably be mixed into the feed like anything else you would supplement in livestock feed.

but i agree you shouldnt eat too much saturated fat. i think there are studies linking overconsumption of saturated fat in combination of carbs to be unbeneficial. everything in moderation i guess.

im not sure also about the egg yolk thing, but i know most retinol and vitamin e oils are very amber in color, which makes sense that it would color the yolk into a darker shade of yellow/orange if it was rich in those vitamins. while some may be fed supplemental feed that colors the yolks, generally a darker yolk is an indication of higher vitamin a and e. generic grocery store bought yolks are so light yellow its crazy. compared to the ones i get form the organic stores and local farmers. its like how europeans take a bite of a conventionally grown american tomato and comment how it just tastes like water compared to properly grown tomatoes in rich soils.

This is a thread with papers and studies collected by one person https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/a-must-read-pufa-primer.8033/. Im no expert by any means, i just read what other people post and if it seems theres sufficient evidence pointing towards one direction ill adopt that theory until there is better evidence provided from a different point of view. So far it seems most PUFAs are not good. and no its not from the paleo crowd and keto crowd. these things were talked about much earlier than those diets became a thing by ray peat.

article by ben greenfield with studies promoting saturated fats: https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/article/fat-loss-articles/the-french-paradox/

other saturated fat promoting articles

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0899900721002562?via%3Dihub

https://medicaldialogues.in/diet-nutrition/news/foods-rich-in-saturated-fatty-acids-and-high-protein-linked-to-better-thyroid-function-study-81513

other random study

PUFA found in gonads of infertile animals, SFA found in gonads of fertile animals. the journal entry changed (manipulated more like)  its title from identifying PUFA as the cause and just changed it to "High Fat" intake. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/ajpendo.00235.2020. If you can access the original study you would fine the following quoted: 
"...After grouping FAs by degree of unsaturation and the position of the double bonds (Table S5 and Figure 4), we observed that the most abundant FA family in the testis of CTRL and HFDt groups are the saturated fatty acids (SFAs) (55.79% and 41.83%, respectively), while polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) are the most abundant in the testis of mice from the HFD group (44.21%). HFD and HFDt mice had also increased testicular relative abundance of monosaturated fatty acids (MUFAs) (26% and 21%, respectively), with increased accumulation of oleic acid (C18:1n-9). Moreover, Table S5 also shows indirect measures for the anti-inflammatory/pro-inflammatory potential via lipid mediators (C22:6n-3/C20:4n-6 ratio), the combined activity of Δ5- and Δ6-desaturases (D5D and D6D) (C20:4n-6/C18:2n-6 ratio), and the activity of Δ4-desaturases (D4D) (C22:5n-6/C20:4n-6 ratio)."

"...In our previous work (12), we also reported reduced sperm quality which was associated with fat deposition. Moreover, there is a decrease in the activity of antioxidant enzymes (Cat and GSR) in the testes of life-long HFD fed mice. Therefore, it is possible that extra lipid intake, notably in PUFAs, is the cornerstone in testicular antioxidant balance. This hypothesis is supported by the differences in lipid fractions between groups (Figure 4), the differences in the correlations of lipid fractions against sperm parameters (Figure 6A), and the sample separation achieved by the corresponding PCA (Figure 6B)."

"...In sum, our data demonstrates that a HFD during early life akin to childhood and puberty causes an excessive accumulation of unsaturated FAs is testes. A diet intervention, replacing HFD for a balanced diet was proven effective in protecting/preventing metabolic dysfunction. However, a HFD during early life caused irreversible metabolic remodeling in testes, with long-term sperm defects. Dietary intervention in early adulthood promotes lipolysis in testes, particularly from unsaturated FAs, towards the CTRL state, but this process is apparently too slow to recover normal sperm parameters. Mechanistically, our data suggests that HFD promotes a pro-inflammatory state in testis, aggravated by a positive feedback system that favors the accumulation of n-6 PUFAs, precursors of inflammatory response signaling molecules. Our model did not allow us to verify whether testicular lipid composition and normal sperm quality could be achieved later in life..."

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Ora

[kamwalker]

On 10/2/2021 at 5:36 AM, Michael569 said:

For example, if instead of 6 eggs for breakfast you'd do tofu scramble from 250 grams of tofu you'd be getting equal amount of protein, zero cholesterol, zero saturated fat and shitload of calcium, protective phytoestrogens and a decent amount of copper, manganese, iron and phosphorus. Granted 250g of organic tofu will cost 2.5 USD where 6 eggs may cost 1 dollar if you get them from the cheapest factory-farmed hens, it is still a cost I'm willing to pay every single time. 

Long term health is ALWAYS more important than some short term gains. 

 

Have you tried organic pasture raised eggs? I buy these even though they are expensive, but they seem so much healthier and better than normal eggs. Whether I scramble them or fry them the consistency is so different from your typical egg. 

[Hello from Russia]

@Michael569 What do you think about estrogen issues regarding soy consumption?

Edited October 4, 2021 by Hello from Russia

[Ora]

real pasture raised eggs will always be more nutritious. farmers will add oyster shells to the chickens feed if the shells of the eggs do not look strong and healthy and it immediately hardens the shells. so whatever the chicken eats will go to the eggs. 

[Michael569]

@Ora ah it seems you read my previous comment before I deleted it ANyways since you're not letting this go, challenge accepted. 

Let's start with Ray Pete's article. These are his sources: 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0079683271900383 - this study is from 1971 are you kidding me?. The research has advanced significantly since then. Basically when discussing a topic as dynamic as this you should not ever to studies older than 5-10 years because this is how fast the research changes 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2120529/ - mice study...who cares. Not a human study 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14559071/ - mechanistic reasoning study describing potential mechanisms, not a human staudy. Mechanistic studies are not even at the bottom of hierarchy of evidence

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18990554/ - this is an expert review. While expert review has higher degree of evidence, it is still at the bottom of hierarchy of evidence https://canberra.libguides.com/c.php?g=599346&p=4149721

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23900039/ - in-vitro evidence. This study summed up "mechanistic" knowledge from petri dish studies. These are NOT human studies. Look even what the authors wrote.

"On one hand, in vitro studies have clearly demonstrated the links between the pro-inflammatory properties of linoleic acid and metabolic diseases. On the other hand, human studies do not validate these links but we have to keep in mind that an excess of linoleic acid in the diet may increase the total mortality"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25787691/ - and one more rat study, no human study. Who cares

This is not a criticism of Ray's work. Maybe he purposefully excluded the human data but if you're gonna talk about potential outcomes and disease in human lives, you cannot do that based on mechanistic evidence. You need to bring the research form the top of the hierarchy of evidence - systematic studies, meta analyses and interventional studies. These are neither. 

10 hours ago, Ora said:

article by ben greenfield with studies promoting saturated fats: https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/article/fat-loss-articles/the-french-paradox/

errrr Ben Greenfield? While I do like this guy because he is kind a cool he is the master of mechanistic studies, theoretical stuff, in-vitro and cherry-picking. He is making millions of dollars selling products with nothing but mechanistic reasoning. Let's break this down thou 

Ok so French Paradox is an outdated theory that is based on 1950s-1960s. Back then French were eating healthier than they are eatingtoday. If you look at the health of the French population today, it is getting close to British and German...one word awful. DIseases have caught up. Liver cirrhosis is skyrocketing. 

Otherwise Ben's article is all mechanistic reasoning about NAD+, FAD+, mitochondrial respiration, ROS. All cool stuff but no human data so who cares. He sticks cool pictures in there but those were obtained from in-vitro evidence. Where are forest plots of meta analyses of prospective cohorts? 

10 hours ago, Ora said:

other saturated fat promoting articles

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0899900721002562?via%3Dihub

https://medicaldialogues.in/diet-nutrition/news/foods-rich-in-saturated-fatty-acids-and-high-protein-linked-to-better-thyroid-function-study-81513

First study -  this is a cross sectional study. Not designed to create correlations. 

Interesting were their findings on saturated fats thou, I have to admit. 

In addition, we observed an association between frequent consumption of full-fat cheese, cottage cheese, and hard cheese (factor 8), as well as butter and animal fats (factor 14), with lower fT4 levels. All of these foods are rich in saturated fatty acids. Until recently, a recommendation to limit dietary intake of saturated fatty acids was valid, but the available evidence no longer supports limiting the intake of such foods [39,40]. Butter, cheese, and animal fats are no longer considered “unhealthy foods,” and according to our results, they have a positive effect on thyroid function by lowering plasma fT4 level. 

But most people do not die off high T4, they die of heart disease, this is where we should be looking. The study also highlights protective effects of wholegrian products so it could be that these people in studies also have high consumption of wholegrains and plant foods, we don't know that. 

Later on they also say "High total energy intake and low intake of polyunsaturated fatty acids have been reported to increase the risk of thyroid cancer, but studies on the impact of a high-GI diet on TH levels are rare"  

Second article - just a link to the study above

10 hours ago, Ora said:

PUFA found in gonads of infertile animals, SFA found in gonads of fertile animals. the journal entry changed (manipulated more like)  its title from identifying PUFA as the cause and just changed it to "High Fat" intake. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/ajpendo.00235.2020.

animals.....Sorry but with the level of evidence we have on humans you can't keep regressing back to animal studies. This is a cherry picking and distraction. Animal studies are important where there is lack of previous research or where we only have theoretical knowledge. In topic such as saturated fats, animal studies are redundant. 

10 hours ago, Ora said:

"...In our previous work (12), we also reported reduced sperm quality which was associated with fat deposition. Moreover, there is a decrease in the activity of antioxidant enzymes (Cat and GSR) in the testes of life-long HFD fed mice. Therefore, it is possible that extra lipid intake, notably in PUFAs, is the cornerstone in testicular antioxidant balance. This hypothesis is supported by the differences in lipid fractions between groups (Figure 4), the differences in the correlations of lipid fractions against sperm parameters (Figure 6A), and the sample separation achieved by the corresponding PCA (Figure 6B)."

"...In sum, our data demonstrates that a HFD during early life akin to childhood and puberty causes an excessive accumulation of unsaturated FAs is testes. A diet intervention, replacing HFD for a balanced diet was proven effective in protecting/preventing metabolic dysfunction. However, a HFD during early life caused irreversible metabolic remodeling in testes, with long-term sperm defects. Dietary intervention in early adulthood promotes lipolysis in testes, particularly from unsaturated FAs, towards the CTRL state, but this process is apparently too slow to recover normal sperm parameters. Mechanistically, our data suggests that HFD promotes a pro-inflammatory state in testis, aggravated by a positive feedback system that favors the accumulation of n-6 PUFAs, precursors of inflammatory response signaling molecules. Our model did not allow us to verify whether testicular lipid composition and normal sperm quality could be achieved later in life..."

 

and more stuff on animal studies. 

As a form of response I'll just link this. A summary of some of the larges human trials.  https://thenutrivore.blogspot.com/2020/05/saturated-fat-cutting-through-noise.html  Notice the quality of his studies. All interventional, highly controlled. This is what you need here. 

I have not done the research myself as I lack the skills to properly disect all the human evidence, one day I'd love to do that but right now I'm not able to. This is the most researched article I've  ever come across on this topic but ofcourse let's not be dogmatic and keep researching. But let's also not keep going back to mechanistic data, in-vitro and lab studies. These are all irrelevant at this point and so saying that "saturated fats are healthy" because a mice study says so is naive at best and dangerous at worst. 

 

[Michael569]

9 hours ago, Hello from Russia said:

What do you think about estrogen issues regarding soy consumption?

I looked into this in one of my blog research topics. Feel free to check it out, may give you more info. Just follow my link below and go to "blog"

11 hours ago, kamwalker said:

Have you tried organic pasture raised eggs? I buy these even though they are expensive, but they seem so much healthier and better than normal eggs. Whether I scramble them or fry them the consistency is so different from your typical egg. 

Yes ofcourse. I'd rather eat 5 high quality eggs per week than eat 30 low-quality ones. It is more ethical, more sustainable and probably cleaner. Bu to be frank, at least where I live I see absolutely no difference in taste or looks when buying eggs from a local farm in the national park or buying them in bulk. I generally eat very little eggs (maybe  5 a month or so) but when I do I can't usually tell a difference. 

 

[Gregory1]

143 eggs a day is too much. 

[The0Self]

On 10/3/2021 at 4:41 AM, Michael569 said:

On 10/2/2021 at 2:21 PM, The0Self said:

it was the choline or something but I can't remember exactly.

Choline being turned into trimethylamine-N oxide (TMAO) in the gut & liver could be the theory? 

I believe that is actually what it was.

[Ora]

that blog post seems pretty well researched. hope you dont mind if i post it in the ray peat forums to see what they have to say since im not very good at analyzing studies. i dont think i can agree that saturated fat is that harmful since cultures like india and eastern asians ate a lot of butter and animal fats before refined vegetable oils came around and they have quite long lifespans. i think dr mercola said he takes most of his calories through mct oil when hes doing keto and being how obsessive he is about his health i cant imagine him doing that if it was detrimental.