Free Will: The Myth of Determinism

[r0ckyreed]

A lot has been said about free will and its illusory nature.  But the flip side of determinism has been neglected severely.  In fact, the illusion of determinism I would argue is so prevailing that most people take determinism for reality without ever questioning the assumptions of the claim and determinism itself.

I want you to notice how free will is always talked about, and I wonder if there is some reason that determinism isn't?  Is it because the ego-mind is too afraid to frame to look under the rug of determinism and free will is more comforting, or is there some deeper metaphysical assumptions of determinism and physics that ground our reality?

If time is conceptual, illusory, and relative, then what does that say about the nature of determinism?

What are your thoughts about determinism and why it isn't questioned?  My guess is because determinism is the essential theory that constructs our materialistic reality.  Determinism is the theory that grounds all of our understanding because we assume that cause and effect, past and future, are real things.  

Let's unpack the myth of determinism for we cannot really understand free will without it.  Determinism is what makes "free will" possible.

[Mason Riggle]

@r0ckyreed Determinism is talked about all the time.  It's essentially a 'fixed chain of causality'.  The notion that events are 'determined' by prior states of existence. 

People often use Determinism as one method of 'debunking' notions of 'free will'.. because according to determinism, there is just 'what will happen as determined'. 

This, however, is not the only method of 'debunking' notions of 'free will'. 

To really 'break down' notions of 'free will'.. simply try defining it, and begin to realize there is no logical notion of freedom.. you're left with nonsense. 

You can also directly experience your complete lack of freedom at any moment if only it occurs to you to pay close attention to what your actual experience is like..

"Any attempt to change what is occurring, is just more 'what is already occurring as it will'." -Me

Edited September 30, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Consilience]

This topic reminds me of a zen koan - 

In the Hands of Destiny 

A great Japanese warrior named Nobunaga decided to attack the enemy although he had only one-tenth the number of men the opposition commanded. He knew that he would win, but his soldiers were in doubt.

On the way he stopped at a Shinto shrine and told his men: "After I visit the shrine I will toss a coin. If heads comes, we will win; if tails, we will lose. Destiny holds us in her hand."

Nobunaga entered the shrine and offered a silent prayer. He came forth and tossed a coin. Heads appeared. His soldiers were so eager to fight that they won their battle easily.

"No one can change the hand of destiny," his attendant told him after the battle.

"Indeed not," said Nobunaga, showing a coin which had been doubled, with heads facing either way.

[r0ckyreed]

4 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

Determinism is talked about all the time. 

Not as nearly as much as free will. People deconstruct free will but very few deconstruct determinism.

[r0ckyreed]

29 minutes ago, Consilience said:

This topic reminds me of a zen koan - 

In the Hands of Destiny 

A great Japanese warrior named Nobunaga decided to attack the enemy although he had only one-tenth the number of men the opposition commanded. He knew that he would win, but his soldiers were in doubt.

On the way he stopped at a Shinto shrine and told his men: "After I visit the shrine I will toss a coin. If heads comes, we will win; if tails, we will lose. Destiny holds us in her hand."

Nobunaga entered the shrine and offered a silent prayer. He came forth and tossed a coin. Heads appeared. His soldiers were so eager to fight that they won their battle easily.

"No one can change the hand of destiny," his attendant told him after the battle.

"Indeed not," said Nobunaga, showing a coin which had been doubled, with heads facing either way.

I like it. Even destiny though needs to be deconstructed. It’s still another layer in the illusion.

[Mason Riggle]

@r0ckyreed I used to be a member of several very active 'Determinism' facebook groups where it was talked about to death.   Many come to the realization the neither 'determinism' nor 'indeterminism' (should such a concept be rational) give room for 'free will' in the sense of being able to do 'other' than exactly what one will do. 

And since 'determinism' isn't necessary to be 'true' to show 'free will' to be a nonsensical notion, people may actively avoid the topic in favor of 'experiential' evidence of the lack of free will, rather than logical proofs. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Consilience]

12 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

I like it. Even destiny though needs to be deconstructed. It’s still another layer in the illusion.

Exactly. And that’s the beauty of this koan. It‘s deconstructing destiny while simultaneously affirming it… if there is no determinism/destiny, no free will, what is left? Utterly wordless ?

[Mason Riggle]

3 minutes ago, Consilience said:

 if there is no determinism/destiny, no free will, what is left?

Being.

[Consilience]

1 minute ago, Mason Riggle said:

Being.

❤️