Bringing up commitment before Sex

[The0Self]

7 hours ago, cjoseph90 said:

I want something serious, however from all the conflicting information online that says that saying that you want a commitment  upfront ‘usually’  scares the guy and he should usually come to his own decision and/or go with the flow. As a female, I overthink more than I should about stuff that  really doesn’t matter. I know @Flowerfaeiry has a recent similar post. I don’t want to just have sex without commitment, and don’t want to share my sexual energy with anybody either.

Okay so this will never ever happen with a quality man. The only compassionate response is to suggest that you drop that expectation like a hot coal. Commitment never ever EVER comes before sex unless it's a rather dysfunctional relationship and/or a pathetic man. Drop that dream. Just a suggestion. Good luck though! 

[Harlen Kelly]

@Karmadhi It's actually simpler than you think. A quality guy is simply a guy quality women find attractive and quality women want to be in relationships with, whatever your definition of quality women is. 

If no woman finds you attractive, by definition, you are not a quality guy (not in the eyes of quality women at least, of course your quality as a human is totally subjective). If high quality women find you attractive and want to have relationships with you, by definition, you are a high quality guy.  Both high quality guys and high quality women have many options to choose from. 

A guy who would commit to a relationship before sex does so because he lacks options, which high-quality guys have an abundance of. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Harlen Kelly

[The0Self]

2 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

A guy who would commit to a relationship before sex does so because he lacks options, which high-quality guys have an abundance of.

Exactly. I'd strongly suggest that it is in the best interest of cjoseph90 to drop this dream of hers like a sack of bricks and never look back.

[zazen]

4 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

@Karmadhi It's actually simpler than you think. A quality guy is simply a guy quality women find attractive, whatever your definition of quality women is. 

If no woman finds you attractive, by definition, you are not a quality guy (not in the eyes of quality women at least, of course your quality as a human is totally subjective). If high quality women find you attractive and want to have relationships with you, by definition, you are a high quality guy.  Both high quality guys and high quality women have many options to choose from. 

A guy who would commit to a relationship before sex does so because he lacks options, which high-quality guys have an abundance of. 

This. A quality guy probably isn't going to commit, the best one can do is at least weed out the completely commitment phobic through questioning, making the guy invest at least a bit, but not taking too long before he just goes off to someone who will give him what he wants with a lot more ease, its a balancing act. 

[soos_mite_ah]

5 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

I think your comment is taking excessively a masculine vantage point here, Leo,

You are venting out possibly some frustration about how females are "sexually stingy", but the reality is that the female experience is energetically at the opposite side of the spectrum you are familiar with.

What she wants is a guy who is there because he's interested, not because he's looking to empty his balls.

If you had a daughter, ask yourself if you would give her the same advice? Knowing to what extend many men will outlook a female's agenda for their desire for sex, you'd probably understand why it's important that she feels like this guy has also her best interest in mind.

Women are the like the egg. We chose who gets in meticulously and this is done by sorting out who is compatible ahead. It's not a house party for everyone to get it.

Just like the female reproductive system has safeguard to select the best sperm, the female body and psyche is the same when it comes to chose who is compatible for sex ahead.

The thing is, there is no timeline to when you desire to have sex with a man. It depends on what you are looking for. You've got the right for a one night stand as much as you've got the right for looking something more serious. You've got also the right to no sex at all if that's what you chose.

What I get from your post is that you are currently wondering if this guy is interested in you in the same way as you are in him. And that is totally legit. So I wouldn't listen to anyone telling you you should suppress or overrun this feeling and have sex.

To me, the ideal situation is to feel like you're dealing with a man who values you and for whom having sex is part of how the relationship is naturally unfolding. It's quite intuitive, and your ability to screen this is is always a question of intimacy and ability to read someone's energy. 

If you suspect this man is not on the same page as you, just dive into his psyche by asking him general questions about the whole topic as part of a conversation in many other subjects and make up your mind discreetly. 

What's important is not so much the spoken commitment but the presence or the premises of this unspoken mutual respect and genuine care for one another.

I would say that do what feels authentic and natural to you. And that sometimes means honoring your boundaries by waiting for commitment because that is the healthiest and most sustainable choice for you personally at the time. But that doesn't mean you need to have or align with super rigid rules that you don't resonate with. The most important thing is that you are self aware and you check in with yourself. 

A quality guy will respect your boundaries. If sex is really important to him or he wants something less serious, he will communicate that and walk away if there is an incompatibility in y'all wants and needs in the dynamic because he respects his and your needs. If he wants something more serious and is willing to wait as well for whatever reason, he will let you know. What a quality guy won't do is shame you for your decisions and pressure you to do something that feels unnatural or inauthentic. 

And there isn't one way to be a quality guy in this kind of scenario. You don't have to have sex before commitment and choosing that doesn't mean you have a lack of opportunities or that you're some type of "nice guy." This is a very personal decision regardless of gender. 

Finally, I agree with  @Etherial Cat and I second everything she says. Also, thank you for calling out how this isn't about being stingy with sexual energy. 

[Harlen Kelly]

49 minutes ago, zazen said:

A quality guy probably isn't going to commit

High quality guys (guys high quality women find attractive and want relationships with) commit all the time, they only do so with high quality women. 

Delaying sex does not make a woman high quality, is simply a manipulative tactic that would not work on a guy with a healthy self-esteem and basic social skills, which most people who are psychologically healthy and had a good upbringing posses.

It definitely would not work with a high-quality guy because those tend to have more options than the average guy, this is incredibly simple to understand.  

My advice would be to let it unfold naturally. You feel like having sex with him? than go ahead, you don't feel like having sex with him? then don't. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Harlen Kelly

[zazen]

9 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

High quality guys (guys high quality women find attractive and want relationships with) commit all the time, they only do so with high quality women. 

Putting out sex does not make a woman high quality, is simply a manipulative tactic that would not work on a guy with a healthy self-esteem and basic social skills, which most people who are psychologically healthy and had a good upbringing posses.

It definitely would not work with a high-quality guy because those tend to have more options than the average guy, this is incredibly simple to understand.  

My advice would be to let it unfold naturally. You feel like having sex with him? than go ahead, you don't feel like having sex with him? then don't. 

Agreed, I meant a quality guy probably won't commit before sex not in general that they won't commit at all. In fact a quality guy should come to the conclusion of how shallow sex can be with person after person to which they have no depth with, and eventually go from breadth of relationships to depth of relationship with one person. 

[The0Self]

18 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

My advice would be to let it unfold naturally. You feel like having sex with him? than go ahead, you don't feel like having sex with him? then don't.

Yeah this. Drop expectations perhaps but also let it unfold naturally.

[Leo Gura]

So much BS in this thread.

No one is going to commit to you before sex. Nor is such a thing desirable.

Stop enabling her obvious neediness.

[soos_mite_ah]

29 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

Putting out sex does not make a woman high quality, is simply a manipulative tactic that would not work on a guy with a healthy self-esteem and basic social skills, which most people who are psychologically healthy and had a good upbringing posses.

Or maybe her holding off on having sex has nothing to do with the guy rather it's about her and her comfort level/ emotional health. 

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No one is going to commit to you before sex. Nor is such a thing desirable.

This simply isn't true. I've seen people commit before sex multiple times. Both parties simply have to be on the same page a far as waiting and priorities go. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[Karmadhi]

@Harlen Kelly 

56 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

t's actually simpler than you think. A quality guy is simply a guy quality women find attractive and quality women want to be in relationships with, whatever your definition of quality women is. 

LOL.

Your logic is as follows: Pizza is a high quality food because that is what people like to eat compared to kale that nobody wants to eat. Therefore pizza is a higher quality food than kale.

High quality is what is good for you in teh long run, not what stimulates your ape chimp brain in the short run. That is pure lack of wisdom and being stupid. Only a fool would call pizza a high quality food.

If you want to be  fool be my guest but do not complain when that foolishness bites you in the ass (females complain about abusive boyfriends or guys complain about gold diggers).

Now unfortunately most people are really foolish and ape brain dominated so i do understand that such people will be attractive. However calling them high quality to me is as calling pizza a high quality food just because people like it since it stimulates their ape brains.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Karmadhi

[Harlen Kelly]

@Karmadhi I don't think you read my comment attentively. Read it again, pay attention this time. 

I emphasized multiple times quality women which in this case would be the equivalent of kale but in relationships.

 ''A quality guy is simply a guy quality women find attractive and quality women want to be in relationships with, whatever your definition of quality women is.'' 

12 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Or maybe her holding off on having sex has nothing to do with the guy rather it's about her and her comfort level/ emotional health. 

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

In which case she should simply not have sex with him but not as a ''technique'' or ''test'', but simply because she does not want to have sex with him. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Harlen Kelly

[The0Self]

3 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Or maybe her holding off on having sex has nothing to do with the guy rather it's about her and her comfort level/ emotional health. 

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No one is going to commit to you before sex. Nor is such a thing desirable.

This simply isn't true. I've seen people commit before sex multiple times. Both parties simply have to be on the same page a far as waiting and priorities go. 

People don't even necessarily fully commit after sex even when it appears they're committed to another. No one really ever actually commits to someone else anyway, only to their own idea of another separate person, it just plays out as it does and needs apparently get met or they don't. Commitment before sex is usually a ruse, a rarity, a pretense, an anomaly, or a neediness. It's a pipe dream and commitment apparently happens when it does, or it doesn't.

[Etherial Cat]

1 hour ago, soos_mite_ah said:

I would say that do what feels authentic and natural to you. And that sometimes means honoring your boundaries by waiting for commitment because that is the healthiest and most sustainable choice for you personally at the time. But that doesn't mean you need to have or align with super rigid rules that you don't resonate with. The most important thing is that you are self aware and you check in with yourself. 

A quality guy will respect your boundaries. If sex is really important to him or he wants something less serious, he will communicate that and walk away if there is an incompatibility in y'all wants and needs in the dynamic because he respects his and your needs. If he wants something more serious and is willing to wait as well for whatever reason, he will let you know. What a quality guy won't do is shame you for your decisions and pressure you to do something that feels unnatural or inauthentic. 

And there isn't one way to be a quality guy in this kind of scenario. You don't have to have sex before commitment and choosing that doesn't mean you have a lack of opportunities or that you're some type of "nice guy." This is a very personal decision regardless of gender. 

Finally, I agree with  @Etherial Cat and I second everything she says. Also, thank you for calling out how this isn't about being stingy with sexual energy. 

Thank you. You're welcome, @soos_mite_ah.  

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

So much BS in this thread.

No one is going to commit to you before sex. Nor is such a thing desirable.

Stop enabling her obvious neediness.

There are several degrees of commitment.

We're not talking about planning a LTR which must imperatively succeed before sex . It's more about having the intention to pursue something beside sex with this person and put the mean and effort to it in a reasonable way. Because, you're there for more than just the sex. You actually like each other and seek something intimate and special together.

And there is still room for calling it quit any time if the circumstances makes it right and incompatibility is revealed.

In Europe (especially in France), if you get out with someone once on a romantic date, it's assumed that you don't get to see anyone else on the side. If you do, you'll be considered a cheater or a player. I got confused the first time I understood that Americans were waiting to have a conversation to call themselves exclusives and stop seeing other people on the side.

The real commitment is showing sincere interest for someone. It doesn't need to be framed as anything. Usually, if you're truly interested by someone, you just keep seeing each other and the thing unfolds naturally, without any need for label.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Etherial Cat

[Raptorsin7]

@cjoseph90 I would only go out with guys who are compatible in terms of values, relationship minded, etc.

You will lower your chance of getting used if you can effectively assess a man's character before having sex.

I'd also say it depends on where you live and what the men YOU want, want. If most high quality men expect sex early then you may be forced to compromise. 

Personally, I wouldn't mind waiting up to 4 or 5 dates if I was seriously interested in a woman. But that would probably be the max. If you are holding out then you are making it seem like you either don't trust the person, or you are playing childish games by making a person wait an arbitrary time period.

 

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura You surely have not interacted with a lot of cultures have you? Half the world does not have sex before marriage (just saying).

It is really relative depending on your values and where you live. Stage blue will not have sex before some sort of commitment. And half the world is stage blue.

Most girls are not Las Vegas club girls that have sex at the drop of a dime. I live in an international campus and have heard all sorts of shit. Try to have this no commitment before attitude with rural religious american girls.

Your attitude is right if you are talking about a developed stage orange or higher society with complete sexual liberation. Las Vegas and California where you have lived are such hence your opinions. Go to India and this narrative gets blown out the window for example. Since this is a forumn for people from all the world, it is not a good thing to withhold such views as an absolute.

It is very culture dependent.

Of course you can still manage to have casual sex with women from blue countries, but it is extremly difficult and not ordinary. It is not the norm and few girls would do it. Because it hurst her survival agenda a lot.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Karmadhi

[Raptorsin7]

3 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@Leo Gura You surely have not interacted with a lot of cultures have you? Half the world does not have sex before marriage (just saying).

It is really relative depending on your values and where you live. Stage blue will not have sex before some sort of commitment. And half the world is stage blue.

Most girls are not Las Vegas club girls that have sex at the drop of a dime. I live in an international campus and have heard all sorts of shit. Try to have this no commitment before attitude with rural religious american girls.

Your attitude is right if you are talking about a developed stage orange or higher society with complete sexual liberation. Las Vegas and California where you have lived are such hence your opinions. Go to India and this narrative gets blown out the window for example. Since this is a forumn for people from all the world, it is not a good thing to withhold such views as an absolute.

It is very culture dependent.

This is a mute point. If you're on this forum 99% chance you aren't going to happy with someone centered at stage blue or stage red

[Roy]

I don't entirely agree nor disagree with @Leo Gura but I think he's being too harsh here.

Two people should both have good communication about their general intentions about what kind of relationship it will be before having sex. So you don't "give up the cookie" and expect something more and then have the guy (or girl) bounce on you the next day. It happens way too much and people get hurt for no reason.

Have the courage to set the boundary and share your ambitions (and have them share theirs too) before getting too involved with each other, because yes sex IS another layer of involvement. Sex is not a casual thing unless it's happening in an explicitly clear casual setting like a fucking brothel or in the bathroom of a bar.

It's all nice to be "organic" and "flowing" about sexuality but let's be honest and not forget it's mostly a transactional thing. You are making a subtle business deal in every relationship, don't let your selfish intentions cloud you to that reality.

I banged a French girl earlier this year on the first date, and while the hours up to and during the sex were great and we seemed on the same page with our energy and intentions, what we were both REALLY after were completely different things. It seemed all fine but obviously we read each other wrong somewhere because she was quite upset when I said I wasn't sure I was after a continuous thing after we did the deed. I still feel awful about it.

So yeah, talk about your intentions @cjoseph90 Don't treat your encounters like a joke.

It's good to have a little bit of fear, it keeps you from being stupid. There are MANY guys out there who won't hesitate to fuck you and delete your number the next morning. They will play all charming and say all the right things just to get what they want.

 

[roopepa]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

No one is going to commit to you before sex.

You have a really narrow and limited view on relationships.

There are plenty of people who don't even want to have sex. And I'm not even talking about asexuality, you can be a 'normal' sexual person, but only romantically attracted to another and be in a healthy relationship with them.

Not all male-female intimate/romantic relationships require sex. People and relationships are way more complicated and diverse than you seem to convey.

You got no idea how differently people experience their relationships, intimacy and sexuality. You need to think over your views on this subject. You can do way better than this.

[somegirl]

19 minutes ago, Roy said:

Two people should both have good communication about their general intentions about what kind of relationship it will be before having sex. So you don't "give up the cookie" and expect something more and then have the guy (or girl) bounce on you the next day. It happens way too much and people get hurt for no reason

@Roy Agreed 100%. That's what I was saying too. 

You can't just give "it" up everytime you find some person attractive, expecting they will commit after that. Communication should definitely take place so both parties can see if they are on the same page.