Are psychedelics a Complete Path?

[The Buddha]

This is a question I've been contemplating for a long time and after leo's 5-MeO-MALT video I'm really curious to know other points of view. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the term "Complete path", in my understanding it is a path which itself is the beggining, procces and end to full God-Realization. In other words, if you wanted, only by that path it is possible to attain the highest realization. I must say that it is very rare to find someone serious in this work that doesn't combine multiple paths, however I also think that it's a very interesting concept to understand. Some complete paths are: Meditation, Devotion and Service, Yoga...

Another thing to understand is that if someone wants to really do it with just one path, it's not gonna be a normal meditator, or a regular yoga practicioner or a merely devotional person. I'm really talking about very advanced beings in those paths, so advanced that for them there is no difference between their regular life and their spiritual practices. I say this just to point out that even though they are complete paths, you must be absolutely inmersed in them to even have the chance to attain God-Realization. On the other hand, only by that complete path it is possible to do so.

Imagine someone seriously decides to take just the path of psychedelics to awaken, from absolute normie to fully wake up, is that possible? In other words, are psychedelics a Complete Path only by themselves?

 

[The Buddha]

In my research I'm aware that Daniel M. Ingram has found at least a couple of people that has done so. That is all I could find.

[Leo Gura]

Don't be fooled into this notion of some complete path. Use whatever collection of methods work. There is no such thing as one true pure path.

And Daniel Ingram is not God-realized, he is playing Buddhist games. You will not become God-realized via Biddhist meditation. If you insist on playing those kind of games you'll never realize you are God.

Only using psychedelics would also be a mistake. They are merely a tool.

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, The Buddha said:

In my understanding it is a path which itself is the beggining, procces and end to full God-Realization. In other words, if you wanted, only by that path it is possible to attain the highest realization

‘My understanding’ huh? What’s that? All this stuff is ‘in’ there eh?

[Thought Art]

God Realization, I am assuming won't even complete your total ability in life. 

Many paths for different aspects.

[itachi uchiha]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

And Daniel Ingram is not God-realized, he is playing Buddhist games. You will not become God-realized via Biddhist meditation

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

But frank yang said that there is a stage above god realization where u realize that god is an illusion and your realization that "i am god" is also an illusion

 

What are your thoughts on that

[Thought Art]

5 minutes ago, itachi uchiha said:

But frank yang said that there is a stage above god realization where u realize that god is an illusion and your realization that "i am god" is also an illusion

 

What are your thoughts on that

Okay... So what is an illusion then? That sounds like the most bullshit thing I've heard ahah

I have to learn more about Frank but I am not sure why people take him seriously on topics he doesn't know.

What is creating this highly intelligent illusion? An illusion? Like, what are you talking about man.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Thought Art

[itachi uchiha]

13 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Okay... So what is an illusion then? That sounds like the most bullshit thing I've heard ahah

 

If u call frank yang a bullshitter then u might wanna call leo also a bullshitter because i first heard the idea "everything is an illusion" from leo

 

15 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

 

I have to learn more about Frank but I am not sure why people take him seriously on topics he doesn't know.

 

He reached arhant and said 5meo has no affect on him while most of us here are depressed and would all go crazy if we take 5 meo.so he is not some average joe

[Consilience]

Psychedelics alone are not a complete path, no. Particularly once we directly experience just how ridiculously we can increase our consciousness through sober practice. Anyone saying meditation can’t take you to god realization is someone who lacks direct experience with meditation. It will take thousands of hours practice to reach psychedelic levels of consciousness while sober, but a couple things: 1) The benefits are enormous, 2) There’s a sovereignty, unity, and power associated with being able to access these states without chemical augmentation, 3) There’s a compound, exponential return on investment with meditation - in other words, 0 - 1000 hours is going to look VERY different than 1001 - 2000 hours, will look VERY different than 9001 - 10000 hours. Meditation “progress” is non-linear, meditation progress is exponential, particularly in the long run. 

Psychedelics show what is possible, but truly, the highest level of understanding is embodiment. Psychedelics unfortunately cannot do that. 

[GreenWoods]

48 minutes ago, itachi uchiha said:

But frank yang said that there is a stage above god realization where u realize that god is an illusion and your realization that "i am god" is also an illusion

 

What are your thoughts on that

Maybe he uses different words to say that God is Nothingness.

That realization is not higher than God Realization though. 

[itachi uchiha]

@GreenWoods yeah i agree.in yogic tradition emptiness or enlightened state = god and budhist tradition it is nothingness

[Moksha]

I agree with @Consilience. Psychedelics can jailbreak your mind, but only temporarily. The steady flame, where you are free from suffering regardless of circumstances, is developed through meditation. Drugs can show you what is possible, but they are incapable of keeping you there. Swimming upstream requires integrity, courage, and resolve. There is no shortcut to the other shore.

[Thought Art]

2 hours ago, itachi uchiha said:

If u call frank yang a bullshitter then u might wanna call leo also a bullshitter because i first heard the idea "everything is an illusion" from leo

 

He reached arhant and said 5meo has no affect on him while most of us here are depressed and would all go crazy if we take 5 meo.so he is not some average joe

I don't believe him. But, it's life. Time will carry us forward and things will change.

Actually, God is an infinite shape shifter, and is illusion. But, God is not an illusion. imo and direct experience.

So, they are different 'teachers' or practitioners with different reference experiences. 

There are world class meditators I have heard that try 5meo and are blown away.

I think Frank is an ego but, maybe that is just his muscle posing photos with his deep explanations of his views on meditation on the side. idk. I personally can't take it seriously.

Also, opinions of people change, and as my understanding grows its okay.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Thought Art

[Blackhawk]

Paths are dream-content..

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, itachi uchiha said:

But frank yang said that there is a stage above god realization where u realize that god is an illusion and your realization that "i am god" is also an illusion

 

What are your thoughts on that

Frank Yang isn't God-realized.

He's playing games.

There is nothing above God.

You are dreaming up Frank Yang to keep yourself asleep.

You will not reach God-realization via meditation or Vipassana.

[knakoo]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Frank Yang isn't God-realized.

He's playing games.

There is nothing above God.

You are dreaming up Frank Yang to keep yourself asleep.

You will not reach God-realization via meditation or Vipassana.

Frank Yang is simply saying that if someone is identified with being God, then it isn't enlightenment.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, knakoo said:

Frank Yang is simply saying that if someone is identified with being God, then it isn't enlightenment.

He's full of shit.

He has no idea what God is.

God is not something you identify with. You're God right fucking now. There is only you. You are imaging Frank Yang and all his enlightenment stories in order to keep yourself asleep. You are imagining absolutely everything and everyone. You are creating imaginary arguments in order to keep yourself asleep.

There is no enlightenment. There is only YOU, only God.

Every time you listen to a human you are fooling yourself. There are no humans. It's all something you made up to fool yourself. There is no Buddha, there is no Christ. It's all bullshit. No Buddhist is God-realized.

Stop listening to idiots on YouTube. Cut the shit and Awaken. Or keep playing games.

[Globalcollective]

4 hours ago, Thought Art said:

I don't believe him. But, it's life. Time will carry us forward and things will change.

Actually, God is an infinite shape shifter, and is illusion. But, God is not an illusion. imo and direct experience.

So, they are different 'teachers' or practitioners with different reference experiences. 

There are world class meditators I have heard that try 5meo and are blown away.

I think Frank is an ego but, maybe that is just his muscle posing photos with his deep explanations of his views on meditation on the side. idk. I personally can't take it seriously.

Also, opinions of people change, and as my understanding grows its okay.

@Thought Art yeah I kind of agree I don't wanna shit on frank as he seems like a genuinely nice good guy but for some reason something feels iffy about his claims. If he really was so enlightened would u keep banging on about it on youtube. I mean maybe thats my mind projecting on how someone "enlightened" would behave but somethinh feels off. Also he said somethinh about being more enlightened then yogis in India. I feel there is a clear difference in him compared to say sadhguru who seems like he is the real deal. 

But again don't wanna shit on frank he says some great things and is a great guy from what I can tell but fully enlightened I'm sceptical. Maybe he should recored a 3 day sds sit or something to prove his mad claims aha. 

I feel there is a case of teachers/youtubers feeling the need to out do and out enlighten eachother to be the best in the game which lead to Connor Murphy's fall from grace 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Globalcollective

[Thought Art]

3 hours ago, Globalcollective said:

@Thought Art

yeah I kind of agree I don't wanna shit on frank as he seems like a genuinely nice good guy but for some reason something feels iffy about his claims. If he really was so enlightened would u keep banging on about it on youtube. I mean maybe thats my mind projecting on how someone "enlightened" would behave but somethinh feels off. Also he said somethinh about being more enlightened then yogis in India. I feel there is a clear difference in him compared to say sadhguru who seems like he is the real deal. 

I think Frank is a beautiful person. I just personally don't resonate with him or give him any authority. He seems focused on combatting Leo instead of contributing...and It just seems like ego to me maybe. He is a nice guy though.

He does know about mindfulness and meditation though. But, I still need to analyze him and he simply isn't a priority for me. Take all I with a grain of salt. 

I personally think it is a mistake to think an enlightened person needs to act a certain way. Enlightened people can be bold, powerful, loud and confident. Enlightenment/ awakening is only one area of personal development. Playing Ego games like Frank is is a sign he isn't True in what he is doing. He doesn't know what God is. 

But again don't wanna shit on frank he says some great things and is a great guy from what I can tell but fully enlightened I'm sceptical. Maybe he should recored a 3 day sds sit or something to prove his mad claims aha. 

Enlightenment/ your level of conciouness... Is really a nuanced thing with many facets, aspects, subfields, nuances, triviality, arbirtariness, aesthetic qualities, etc... So, for him to be so gong ho about his cessation being the truest way... Idk. I generally feel see people not realizing that there are many paths, aspects and areas of spiritual development you may take as a sign of being of a very partial perspective.

However, he clearly knows about the mind and has an understanding of theory of awareness and meditation. Don't get me wrong. I still need to learn more about him. Each teaching, spiritual school, spiritual practice, spiritual tool, spiritual perspective is limited and only addresses a finite aspect of the larger picture of our spiritual potential. So, just eat everything I think.yum yum yum

I feel there is a case of teachers/youtubers feeling the need to out do and out enlighten eachother to be the best in the game which lead to Connor Murphy's fall from grace 

This is a good insight imo. I sense though that Connor's fall from grace was classic case of Zen Devilry, which I was pointing out since he first started commenting on the forum. No one really believed me but hey. ahaha He didn't come into it with a beginners mind and thought he could brute force his way through, plus he lacks the maturity and integrity required to be a teacher. However, he still can develop himself and mature over time. He went about psychedelics like a fool and lost his footing on reality. He was trying to grow as fast as he could I think and was facing delusions of granduer, etc. I followed Connor's breakdown very closely as I was using it as a study of Zen Devilry so I can avoid the same trap. 

I think Connor was just way over his head. He dove in head first to Leo's deeper teachings and totally twisted them into his own egoic schemes. This is Zen Devilry and a risk we all face. Stay grounded, stay humbled. Don't demonize Connor, though he did not respect Leo at all despite him trying to help him. This is a problem when you are already successful you think you know what you really don't know. With each new endeavour always use a beginners mind. 

Again, I am still in a process of waking up, scanning the landscape and testing the waters for myself. I have made plenty of mistakes myself along this path. However, I think I do have knack for seeing bullshit. I think Yang does have good insight but also... He is immature.

my response is bold

Frank Needs To Grok that he is God. That all is God. That any state or whatever he gets through his meditation practice is just a part of God. God is all there is.

I personally no longer want any games. I want the real shit. Then, I will simply serve myself in the highest way.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Thought Art

[Spiral Wizard]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

He's full of shit.

He has no idea what God is.

God is not something you identify with. You're God right fucking now. There is only you. You are imaging Frank Yang and all his enlightenment stories in order to keep yourself asleep. You are imagining absolutely everything and everyone. You are creating imaginary arguments in order to keep yourself asleep.

There is no enlightenment. There is only YOU, only God.

You are full of shit because you

• are not fully enlightened yet (unity consciousness, not 'basic' awakening, self-realization, etc.). The fundamental problem is that both of you don't KNOW what the other one is talking about. 
• are judging him without being familiar with his claims, arguments, etc. You've mentioned multiple times that you are not really familiar with his work.

I can't tell who of you is 'right' but what Frank is saying certainly isn't as black and white as you're portraying it to be. 

Remember the 10 ox herding pictures, especially the last one. 

@Leo Gura Have you watched this? It's his perspective in a nutshell. 

I agree, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what either of you is saying:

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Every time you listen to a human you are fooling yourself. There are no humans. It's all something you made up to fool yourself. There is no Buddha, there is no Christ. It's all bullshit. No Buddhist is God-realized.

Stop listening to idiots on YouTube. Cut the shit and Awaken. Or keep playing games.

But I believe it would be of great service to your communities/audiences if Frank Yang went balls to the wall with psychedelics (especially 5-MeO-DMT) and you Mr. Gura became a great meditator/yoga practitioner to attain cessations, advanced samadhis, and superhuman states of consciousness without psychedelics. 

AND THEN, you two record a 10h podcast. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Spiral Wizard