External Reality and Object Permanence Exists: There is no proof that it doesn't

[r0ckyreed]

After reading about human development, object permanence, and contemplating external reality, actuality, and imagination, I am unconvinced that external reality is just imagination.  Sure, it is imaginary from my perspective, but there are other perceptual bubbles even beyond my imagination.  I mean, it is egotistical, solipsistic, and stupid to say that other people on this forum don't exist.  They are imaginary from my point of view, but that does not mean that they don't exist.  That's like a child who has not learned object permanence to say that their mother ceases to exist when she closes her eyes.  

I mean from a certain point of view, all we have of reality is our sensations which includes thoughts and imagination.  But without a world for these sensations, then what are we sensing?  My trouble is where does my bubble end and your bubble begin?  I can look at other objects and their bubbles are imaginary.  Other humans appear as objects from my point of view, and I appear to be the headless space from which they are being held in consciousness.  

But there is more to reality than just my bubble.  If this is true, then how can my bubble be absolutely true if there is a world that occurs beyond my bubble?  I mean right now, COVID exists, people are being molested, and some people are having sex right now.  Of course, I am imagining it all right now, but that does not mean that it does not exist beyond my imagination.  I mean there are actual perceptual bubbles in this universe that believe that COVID is not real and that racism and police brutality don't exist.  I mean I could even stop imagining racism right now, but that does not stop it from existing.  There are other bubbles who are also imagining crap up and I am also imagining them up, but the issue I am having is that I realize that the Universe includes all of the perceptual bubbles, but where are all of these bubbles occurring?  I am imagining them right now in this moment, but that is just my finite point of view.  From your perspective, I am imaginary and you are imaginary to me, but the question is, where is this shared dream and world occurring?  What is this shared world that we are experiencing together?  Now, from God's or the Universe's point of view, reality could be all a mental construction or dream, but from the human point of view, the Dream Universe is the same as physical external reality.  

What I am talking about is not some abstract God point of view, I am talking about this moment right here and now.  We all have self-deceptions, and how do we know that we are not deceiving ourselves when we say that external reality doesn't exist.  It exists as imagination, but external reality is the world in which we share that exists apart from our perceptions of it.  What would we be perceiving if there was not a world to perceive?  How could we trip on a psychedelic if a psychedelic doesn't exist?  You see the problem?  Psychedelics are imaginary right now from my point of view, but that does not mean that they don't exist somewhere out in the external world that I am imagining.  Hence, there is more to reality than my imagination.  My imagination and perceptions are limited, and the same is true for a Trump supporter or for an ant.

Based off of that point:  How can an island of perception become conscious of the entire perceptual ocean?  How can a sponge bubble become conscious of the entire sponge?  The problem is that if you are incarnated as an island or if you are incarnated as a human being, you cannot really say that other islands, oceans, or humans don't have any bubble apart from your own.  I mean all other islands are you because all islands are one with the ocean.  The island of you is one with the Ocean, which makes you the entire ocean.  Now, from this analogy, as God or as the Ocean, there are no other oceans only the ones we imagine such as the pacific, atlantic, etc.  They are all one Ocean, and there are many islands that are all part of the same Ocean.  The same is true for us in that Consciousness or Reality is the Ocean that created all of the different perspectives of the islands, which are like different parts or pieces of the Absolute.  No part has the whole reality.  You can grasp that you are the Universe or the entire Ocean in this case from the point of view of being a human or island, but your knowledge of the Ocean and of Consciousness cannot leave your island until your island dies.  

Ohh!! Shit!! I think I may have realized my error above!  If we are all islands, but we are all one with the Ocean, then the way we realize we are all one is by dissolving our islands!  Oh!! So that means that when our island dissolves and becomes one with Ocean, we realize that from the Oceans point of view, there are no others because you are everything and all islands from this point of view are no different from the Ocean.  I think I got that now!  So basically Consciousness or the Ocean is the External Reality that exists for all islands to experience it.  Part of what makes reality a reality is by mistaking ourselves from who we are!  We mistake ourselves for being an island, when in fact we are the Ocean.  All other people on this forum and even Leo has a consciousness of their own, but it is no different from my own perceptual bubble from the Oceans point of view.  I think I got it now.  I just think Leo makes it confusing when he does not specify that other perceptual bubbles exist from the ego point of view, but not from the point of view from God.  I also think Leo makes it confusing when he says that our island bubble of perception is the Absolute Truth.  But our island perceptual bubble is relative.  The Absolute Truth is the Ocean that allows for islands of relativity to exist.   All we have of the Ocean is our direct experiences of it.  Experiences are relative and the Ocean is the Absolute.

Please give me feedback on this explorative contemplation I did.  I think I answered my own question!

Edited September 23, 2021 by r0ckyreed

[GreenWoods]

From a contemplative POV, you can't know whether external stuff exists or not. But if you increase consciousness, you will know for sure.

5 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

What I am talking about is not some abstract God point of view, I am talking about this moment right here and now.  

This moment right here and now is God's point of view.

11 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

 How can an island of perception become conscious of the entire perceptual ocean?  How can a sponge bubble become conscious of the entire sponge?  

This duality doesn't exist. There is not a sponge bubble and a sponge. 

The sponge bubble is the whole sponge. The way that the sponge bubble is created, is by the whole sponge shapeshifting into and becoming a sponge bubble. 

All of God becomes that one bubble. 

[Mason Riggle]

33 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Sure, it is imaginary from my perspective, but there are other perceptual bubbles even beyond my imagination.

How do you know there are other perceptual bubbles even beyond your imagination? Because that's how you imagine it to be? Notice that all of your 'evidence' for 'objective reality' only exists subjectively, and not 'objectively'. 

You say, 'this is how the world appears to me, so that's how it must be.' (it seems like there are other people with their own perceptions, etc. so there must be), but this is a mistake. What there really is.. is the 'appearance'.. the 'seeming' that there are other perceptual bubbles. 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[GreenWoods]

@r0ckyreed Maybe this helps to understand what I wrote above:

 

[kamwalker]

The relative exists within the absolute. Mistaking the relative for the all absolute is where people get it wrong and gives them existential panic when this is challenged. When Leo says your mom does not exist this threatens the ego, but that's because you are still thinking of it from the point of view of you and not as You. Once one separates themselves from the identification constructed within the relative it brings great peace actually. 

[r0ckyreed]

1 hour ago, Mason Riggle said:

How do you know there are other perceptual bubbles even beyond your imagination? Because that's how you imagine it to be? Notice that all of your 'evidence' for 'objective reality' only exists subjectively, and not 'objectively'. 

I mean I don’t know. But I also don’t know that my island of perception is the only one. I am Chuck Noland on an island thinking I am separate from the ocean. Other islands may exist while I am on the island because that is part of this Dream or Reality. I am not the only island as a human ego. But I am alone as God or the Ocean. 
 

It’s like what Leo said on Curt interview with distributed solipsism. We are all on our own islands playing out on God’s stage. God is all the characters and the stage, and God is experiencing them all at a time. But as we dissolve our egoic islands, we realize that we are all alone because we are all so together. The same “person” behind my eyes is the same behind yours. You all aren’t just NPCs or philosophical zombies. I mean sure I can’t know that, but what is stopping reality from experiencing itself through all perspectives simultaneously at once? 
 

But even my island of perception is an illusion because an island implies separateness from an ocean. You get it?  I-land, island? But the ultimately I-land is the Ocean to put that in an analogous form. The island is just as apart of the ocean as anything. Without an island, without an ego, reality cannot experience itself. All experience requires degrees of relativity.

The same person experiencing your bubble is the same in mine. We are all God alone. Right? 
 

I am really trying to grasp all of this through meditation and contemplation. I refuse to take psychedelics because I want to have the insight without any external, extrinsic source. I want it all intrinsic. I also don’t feel safe using them.

Right now, I have been doing satisfaction meditation, being aware of my breath, body, and mind, as well as deep thinking about life.

I am open to any suggestions.

Thank you!

Edited September 23, 2021 by r0ckyreed

[r0ckyreed]

1 hour ago, GreenWoods said:

This duality doesn't exist. There is not a sponge bubble and a sponge. 

The sponge bubble is the whole sponge. The way that the sponge bubble is created, is by the whole sponge shapeshifting into and becoming a sponge bubble. 

All of God becomes that one bubble.

So it’s like the whole Ocean creating the islands of experience. Like distributed solipsism?

 

1 hour ago, GreenWoods said:

This moment right here and now is God's point of view.

Right. I also feel like it is clouded by ego that thinks it’s on an island when really it is the entire Ocean. All I have ever experienced is this present moment of my island bubble and so have you. I have not accessed your island, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. But from God point of view is when we dissolve the separateness of the islands and realize we are Ocean right? 
 

I still think there are other islands besides my egoic own. But as God, it is all the islands, animals, sharks, waves, icebergs which are all contained within the Ocean and nothing is outside the Ocean from this analogy. 
 

My point of view from R0ckyreed is not all that exists. It is a limited perspective within God’s Ocean right?

[Mason Riggle]

@r0ckyreed I don't disagree with anything you said. 

My take on it is that it doesn't matter how Reality is, only how it SEEMS (which from my perspective, the only one I have, is how it IS, until it seems to be some other way).

And it seems like there are others to 'me', when there seems to be a me, and not like that when there doesn't. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[justfortoday]

As someone who has experienced death first hand (I died in the hospital due to an allergic reaction to sulfonamides) but they brought me back. I experienced the astral plane, in which there is no physicality.

Reality is all just pure light from mind. There is no objective reality.

It's a VR set playing movies, and you are the one watching the vr set.

I literally watched as I became infinity - and my entire bubble of consciousness was "embraced" by my being, and I was spread out everywhere like a blanket of consciousness.

I then realized its the SPACE or AIR that is awake, not the characters. You are being operated like a puppet by consciousness right now, as a limited POV.

There are no 7 billion experiences of reality at once.

There is only one, YOURS.

Each character in this VR reality gets to have absolute consciousness at least once. If you can read this, then you are it right now. As crazy as it sounds. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by justfortoday

[GreenWoods]

2 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

. My point of view from R0ckyreed is not all that exists. It is a limited perspective within God’s Ocean right?

Your perspective/bubble is one bubble out of Infinite possible bubbles. But right now only this bubble exists. God, the whole ocean, became this one bubble. This is how God experiences every bubble, all of God Shapeshifts into it, and nothing else is left, because God can't split itself. There can always only be one Consciousness.

But its also kinda true that there is more than one bubble, because God keeps shapeshifting into different bubbles, in that sense, all the bubbles exist. But always one at a time.

I've explained all of that in more detail in that post I've mentioned above.

Edited September 23, 2021 by GreenWoods

[Guru Fat Bastard]

This may be relevent. Pretty comical too
 

 

[Leo Gura]

Lol, keep dreaming, kid.

[Endangered-EGO]

@r0ckyreed I really enjoyed reading your text.

But these are stories, and you can create a lot of illustrations.

For example imagine god being a story of consciousness. God incarnates as every single sentient being sequentially. So the story starts with John smith, and ends with Xi jin ping with 7billion people in between.

But instead of only creating one sentient being after the other, alone in a world, God creates them in the same matrix, so he can experience other-selves transcending time and still experiencing all of them.

But this is still a story and god cannot be reduced to a story.

 

 

[Spideymon77]

3 hours ago, justfortoday said:

There are no 7 billion experiences of reality at once.

There is only one, YOURS.

Each character in this VR reality gets to have absolute consciousness at least once. If you can read this, then you are it right now. As crazy as it sounds. 

You scared me so badly I needed to shut off my computer lol

[r0ckyreed]

5 hours ago, justfortoday said:

If you can read this, then you are it right now. As crazy as it sounds. 

What about the one writing? Writer and reader is a duality that collapses and is one way God communicates to itself.  

[r0ckyreed]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Lol, keep dreaming, kid.

It’s a damn good dream. I dreamed up external reality therefore it exists in the dream. I feel like though that if I did, then the life will still go on, but where would it be going on if all my sensations are gone? What the Universe is to me is based off my sensations, thoughts, stories, and experiences. Absent of these, the Universe dies from my point of view, but from other egos, it doesn’t. I feel like there is nothing for God to do other than experience itself through us, limited partial perspectives.

The process of death seems like the process of sleep and waking up is like being born again each day, and our dreams are the afterlife. What is the Universe while we are asleep? Nothing, and when we wake up, it is as if sleep never happens, and when we sleep it’s as if waking up never happened. It’s a big paradoxical mess lol.

Edited September 24, 2021 by r0ckyreed

[The0Self]

It’s all simply an empty appearance of unbounded infinity. If doesn’t need to make sense, it’s unbounded.

[RMQualtrough]

It can't exist. I'm very naturally a naive realist so it is very easy for me to lose grasp of these things and on some days I lose clarity.

You simply could not ever describe any external "thing" as a thing without assigning it a property reliant upon some sort of perception. E.g. you can't imagine a red apple actually out there as red, round, and smooth, because you are envisioning sight and touch. There is no seen without see'er and no feel without feeler.

You see how that is not possible? Any way you could imagine something existing out there, you're imagining in perceptions which can't exist independently.

When you take away these qualitative imagined elements you find you can ONLY describe things in terms of sheer math (which itself is not a material object) or abstract concepts... Immaterial properties like charge, spin.

There is never any "object" you could describe to be out there...

You also aren't getting what is meant by "you are imagining it". Your self-mind is not the thing doing the imagining, IT is imagining your self mind and the universe and every other self mind, etc. As such you do not have control to where if you have delusional beliefs they become true because you believe. Like believing you can fly.

[r0ckyreed]

Where is experience located? Whenever I look at a rock for instance, I assume there is no experience for a rock, but when I look at a human (notice the distinction), then I assume that the object human I am looking at experiences and thinks. It is interesting how the mind makes these distinctions that moving objects like ants, snakes, dogs, and humans have experiences but non-moving objects like rocks and plants don’t. 
 

Where does “my” awareness end and “your” awareness begin? When I look at a human, where is there experience occurring? Most people would assume that the seat of their experience is behind their eyes and in their head/brain. When I look at a human, I honestly think there experience of me is behind their skull, which is my appearance of them.
 

When I look for my head, all I see is the world.  This makes me wonder how we each perceive reality differently. For instance, someone else can spot something that I overlooked. Does that mean that it didn’t exist and that I imagined another person who I imagine saw what I didn’t imagine? What about the apparent differences in qualia? Two people can experience colors differently and other people can have extra sensory experiences. How do we explain this?

[The0Self]

14 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Where is experience located? Whenever I look at a rock for instance, I assume there is no experience for a rock, but when I look at a human (notice the distinction), then I assume that the object human I am looking at experiences and thinks. It is interesting how the mind makes these distinctions that moving objects like ants, snakes, dogs, and humans have experiences but non-moving objects like rocks and plants don’t. 
 

Where does “my” awareness end and “your” awareness begin? When I look at a human, where is there experience occurring? Most people would assume that the seat of their experience is behind their eyes and in their head/brain. When I look at a human, I honestly think there experience of me is behind their skull, which is my appearance of them.
 

When I look for my head, all I see is the world.  This makes me wonder how we each perceive reality differently. For instance, someone else can spot something that I overlooked. Does that mean that it didn’t exist and that I imagined another person who I imagine saw what I didn’t imagine? What about the apparent differences in qualia? Two people can experience colors differently and other people can have extra sensory experiences. How do we explain this?

There's just what's appearing to happen, and there's no separation of any kind at all. Nor is there real causality or even context of any sort. Go ahead and try to figure that out logically -- you can't, but if you could, you would not survive it.

Automatically as the answer is revealed, there's no one left to know what it is. Inconceivable love. Unknowing. Freedom. Nothing.

Edited September 25, 2021 by The0Self