Leo's Quantum Physics video is wrong (as well as others)

[caelanb]

Hello, so I making this post to point something out. It is by no meant to be an attack on Leo, or actualized.org, but just a heads up, warning, or criticism of Leo videos from what I've seen from his science and philosophy videos. I do find a lot of Leo's points nuanced and interesting, even though many can be quite radical.

But anyway, this post is mainly about the quantum physics videos Leo made to prove metaphysical ideas (however, it extends to all the other scientific philosophical videos), that are apparently based on science, however, if you would ask a expert, professor, or someone who really understands the subject matter; in this case Quantum Physics, what Leo says is not actually correct.

Here is a video by a professor named David Farina who has BA in chemistry a MA in science education. If you don't want to watch the whole thing, just read the description.

This video essentially debunks the claims (the ones that are in the title, and probably others too) that are now called Quantum Mysticism (considered to be pseudoscience according to physics and professional academics), which uses Quantum Physics to try to prove certain mystical world view, such as materialism (the world being physical) is not real. Which in fact, according to scientists, quantum mechanics does not at all prove that the world is not physical. The twisting of of scientific theories and the like by people who try to promote a certain world view, that is not correct is apparently pretty common according to scientists.

In a different video, for example Leo uses a quote by Paul Feyarabend, a philosopher of science, who has a had a lot of criticisms about his work (etc.scientific America article). The main criticism from the latter article is I think; "Feyerabend attacked science not because he actually believed it was no more valid than astrology or religion. Quite the contrary. He attacked science because he recognized--and was horrified by--science's vast superiority to other modes of knowledge. His objections to science were moral and political rather than epistemological. He feared that science, precisely because of its enormous power, could become a totalitarian force that crushes all its rivals".

There are many criticisms of Leo's scientific videos that I have seen, but these are just a few.

And so, this is why, I think it is better, to ask a real professional about whether or not the scientific - philosophical claims that Leo makes about reality and the world, are based on science, are truly based on science and just a pseudo scientific. Because that can be very harmful for people watching the video, due to the fact that they could be being deluded into thinking that what is being said is what science actually says too.

A great way to possibly handle this that Leo proposed in the comments of debunking science video part 1; is having a real scientist on to talk to him face to face for a part 5. This can really help to prevent any claims that are factually wrong in science from being made. Unfortunately, Leo never made a part 5, and even 4 for that matter. But would be great to have one.

All in all, I very much appreciate Leo's nuanced perspectives, and am thankful that he uploaded his videos (even though it's hard for me to grasp it's claimed truthfulness). But, when the videos aren't actually based on real science, and claim to be, then it makes me annoyed. Because it makes, in my view, actualized.org less trustworthy, due to the miss information that is shared. And this applies to all of the science based videos from Leo that have connections to philosophy (which is most of them) and even just science videos. This is just my perspective, based on my understanding scientific miss information, accurate information and critical thinking. Hope I'm not missing anything.

Thank you for reading.

[Wilhelm44]

If you want to do true science, watch this video and start looking at your hand 

 

[TheLoneSage]

Bruh you’re god dreaming Leo. It’s just your imagination bro. And Leo’s right, you want proof. verify DIRECT EXPERIENCE 

@Wilhelm44^yes 

Edited September 21, 2021 by TheLoneSage

[Adamq8]

 

This dude should look into Bernardo Kastrup.

I would like to see him defend his position against someone like Bernardo.

Because people somehow believe that scientist is objective and is not making claims about the nature of reality, when as a matter of fact they do.

It is AS IMPORTANT to see that scientist is as fallicious when making claims about reality when that is not their business, that is philosophy. 

Thats why Bernardo is amazing because he points this out.

And also how the fantastical claim of QM scientist of trillions of universes spawning etc.

[Blackhawk]

@caelanb Dude, science does not understand quantum mechanics. They can only try to make interpretations of it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/opinion/sunday/quantum-physics.html

(If the article is locked, maybe this will be unlocked, it is for me: https://www.google.se/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/opinion/sunday/quantum-physics.amp.html )

 

"If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics."

- Richard Feynman

 

" I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." 

- Richard Feynman

 

"If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet."

- Niels Bohr

 

"It is meaningless to assign reality to the universe in the absence of an observer; in the intervals between measurement, quantum systems truly exists as fuzzy mixture of all possible properties."
- Niels Bohr

 

"The laws of quantum mechanics itself cannot be formulated ... without recourse to the concept of consciousness."

- Eugene Wigner

 

"Quantum mechanics thereby provides a rational science-based escape from the philosophical, metaphysical, moral, and explanatory dead ends that are the rational consequences of the prevailing entrenched and stoutly defended in practice—although known to be basically false in principle—classical materialistic conception of the world and our place within it."
- Henry Stapp

 

“… it begins to look as if we ourselves, by the last-minute decision, have an influence on what photon will do when it has already accomplished most of its doing… we have to say that we ourselves have an undeniable part in the shaping what we have always called past. The past is not really the past until it has been registered. Or put it another way, the past has no meaning or existence unless it exist as a record in the present”.
- John Wheeler

 

“Solipsism may be logically consistent with present Quantum Mechanics, Monism in the sense of Materialism is not.”
- Eugene Wigner

 

"It was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness."
- Eugene Wigner

 

"We have to give up the idea of realism to a far greater extent than most physicists believe today."
- Anton Zeilinger

 

Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the illusion of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism.”
- Richard Conn Henry and Stephen Palmquist

 

"Observations not only disturb what has to be measured, they produce it… We compel [a quantum particle] to assume a definite position."
- Pascual Jordan

 

"It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,"
- Andrew Truscott

 

“As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clearheaded science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about the atoms this much: There is no matter as such!"
Max Planck

 

"The atoms or elementary particles themselves are not real; they form a world of potentialities or possibilities rather than one of things or facts."
- Werner Heisenberg

 

"The doctrine that the world is made up of objects whose existence is independent of human consciousness turns out to be in conflict with quantum mechanics and with facts established by experiment."
- Bernard d'Espagnat

 

“It is basic for physics that one assumes a real world existing independently from any act of perception - but this we do not know."
- Albert Einstein

[Nahm]

@caelanb

Once someone has actually grokked quantum mechanics there is neither someone nor quantum mechanics. 

[Blackhawk]

https://www.sciencealert.com/reality-doesn-t-exist-until-we-measure-it-quantum-experiment-confirms

[SQAAD]

William Lane Craig's philosophy is world class i must admit.

Edited September 21, 2021 by SQAAD

[WelcometoReality]

It's so fantastically arrogant of humans to believe that they can understand how reality works.

All understanding is only a limited view of something infinite.

How can we not see this?

[Leo Gura]

Professor Dave? Lol

This dude has no clue what science is.

Mysticism does not need QM to prove itself. QM just nicely shows that the foundations of science are a scam.

[Endangered-EGO]

@Leo Gura You should watch his ridiculous creationist debate if you want to see that he is more lost in metaphysics than a creationist. He honestly claimed there's no difference between "spontaneous emergence of life" and genetic engineering.

He didn't realise that putting a nuclei in a different cell was not as impressive as life automatically emerging in a closed system.

[caelanb]

On 2021-09-21 at 11:43 AM, Adamq8 said:

Because people somehow believe that scientist is objective and is not making claims about the nature of reality, when as a matter of fact they do.

It is AS IMPORTANT to see that scientist is as fallicious when making claims about reality when that is not their business, that is philosophy.

@Adamq8 I don't quite understand what you mean here.

 

On 2021-09-21 at 11:41 AM, TheLoneSage said:

Bruh you’re god dreaming Leo

@TheLoneSage I'm not exactly sure what you mean here.

@Blackhawk None of the articles worked.

Are those all legit quotes, from real quantum physicists? If yes, then wouldn't showing them to a physics professor at some school prestigious or not, make their mind bobble? And also, if yes, why don't physicist that "well, reality isn't what we thought it was, it's not material at all". The only explanation I can think of is, that reality being non-physical is not what Quantum physics is saying, but it very much sounds like it is what Quantum physics is saying based on those quotes.

Would that mean that the answer to the question; "If a tree falls and no one hears it (assuming no sentient beings are around), does it make a sound?" is no?. Most people would answer yes to that question.

@SQAAD Who is William Craig? Is he saying that atheism is wrong or theism is wrong?

 

On 2021-09-21 at 0:54 PM, Nahm said:

Once someone has actually grokked quantum mechanics there is neither someone nor quantum mechanics. 

@Nahm How does one grok quantum mechanics? And how would that lead to neither someone not quantum mechanics? Does the person just disappear or something?

On 2021-09-21 at 4:26 PM, WelcometoReality said:

It's so fantastically arrogant of humans to believe that they can understand how reality works.

All understanding is only a limited view of something infinite.

@WelcometoReality Well, you have to assume that reality is infinite in order to say, right? I mean the Universe itself is not infinite according to science (however is very large), it started off as a Big Bang and is expanding, and we can only predict what will happen ones it expands too its limits.

@Leo Gura Have you seen any of his stuff?

On 2021-09-21 at 5:52 PM, Leo Gura said:

This dude has no clue what science is.

Why do you say this is the case? I mean, he does a Bachelor in Chemistry, so he must know something about science. Would he have to get a Phd in science for him to know more about what science is? And if he had one, for example, a Phd in theoretical physical (pretty much what the entire video is about), would that change how you think of him? Just curious.

If all of reality were not real, then why is it so realistic and convincing? After all, in our everyday life, if you had to bet between reality being imaginary and not physical, or physical and material, most people would bet on the the physical and material because, it is certain and everything is more or less the same for everyone; everything abides by the same laws of physics and chemistry, and we all have the same elements of the periodic table that make up the world/universe we all live in (though we are discovering new ones).

On 2021-09-21 at 6:10 PM, Endangered-EGO said:

You should watch his ridiculous creationist debate if you want to see that he is more lost in metaphysics than a creationist. He honestly claimed there's no difference between "spontaneous emergence of life" and genetic engineering.

He didn't realise that putting a nuclei in a different cell was not as impressive as life automatically emerging in a closed system.

@Endangered-EGO Isn't he entitled to his own opinions?

Thank you.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, caelanb said:

I mean, he does a Bachelor in Chemistry, so he must know something about science.

Stop assuming that. He knows the dogma of science. But he does not know what science IS.

Quote

Would he have to get a Phd in science for him to know more about what science is? And if he had one, for example, a Phd in theoretical physical (pretty much what the entire video is about), would that change how you think of him? Just curious.

It doesn't matter how many PhDs he has, he would still not understand what science is.

There is not a single scientist in any university anywhere in the world who knows what science actually is.

No scientist is God-realized. If you realized you were God, you would stop doing science because science is stupid compared to Infinite Consciousness.

Quote

If all of reality were not real, then why is it so realistic and convincing?

Because you are God constructing reality. There is no reality outside your imagination, therefore what you see and think is the only reality there is.

[Nahm]

7 minutes ago, caelanb said:

How does one grok quantum mechanics? And how would that lead to neither someone not quantum mechanics? Does the person just disappear or something?

That there is a person, a separate self, is precisely what quantum mechanics reveals there isn’t. As there isn’t a “knower” to “know quantum mechanics”, there isn’t a “quantum mechanics”.  Surely sounds crazy at first, but quantum mechanics is just beliefs, labeling stuff as separate, which got out of hand. 

[Blackhawk]

2 hours ago, caelanb said:

Are those all legit quotes, from real quantum physicists?

Yes.

[RMQualtrough]

So? I haven't yet seen or understood anything in any scientific study that has ever encroached upon the nature of what things fundamentally are... We just break things down smaller and smaller, atoms, quarks, and just keep digging deeper.

With "things" there will never be a point where the very nature of the thing will be revealed by the thing.

Eventually nothingness must be accepted.

[RMQualtrough]

Do you not literally see that as long as a person searches for things there must come a point where you ask "what are those made of?" and you say "they're not made of anything". Or "they're made of themselves" in which case "where did they come from?" and answer "they didn't come from anywhere".

Do you see that inevitability? This is where all things lead, like the Abrahamic forms of God. There's no real difference except we feel smart to find tiny things.

[Endangered-EGO]

@caelanb Yes, he can have bad metaphysics if he wants, but shouldn't claim to have a clue about metaphysics disguised as science.

If he doesn't get, that "baking a pie is not the same as cutting 2 pies in half and switching one half with the other" are totally different, then he has as bad metaphysics as the creationist he debated.

[GreenWoods]

All existential science that doesn't mirror insights of mysticism is a joke.

 

On 9/21/2021 at 3:26 PM, WelcometoReality said:

It's so fantastically arrogant of humans to believe that they can understand how reality works.

True. Humans can't understand how reality works. Luckily you are not a human, but God.

Edited September 24, 2021 by GreenWoods

[mp22]

On 21/09/2021 at 6:27 PM, Blackhawk said:

@caelanb Dude, science does not understand quantum mechanics. They can only try to make interpretations of it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/opinion/sunday/quantum-physics.html

(If the article is locked, maybe this will be unlocked, it is for me: https://www.google.se/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/opinion/sunday/quantum-physics.amp.html )

 

"If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics."

- Richard Feynman

 

" I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." 

- Richard Feynman

 

"If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet."

- Niels Bohr

 

"It is meaningless to assign reality to the universe in the absence of an observer; in the intervals between measurement, quantum systems truly exists as fuzzy mixture of all possible properties."
- Niels Bohr

 

"The laws of quantum mechanics itself cannot be formulated ... without recourse to the concept of consciousness."

- Eugene Wigner

 

"Quantum mechanics thereby provides a rational science-based escape from the philosophical, metaphysical, moral, and explanatory dead ends that are the rational consequences of the prevailing entrenched and stoutly defended in practice—although known to be basically false in principle—classical materialistic conception of the world and our place within it."
- Henry Stapp

 

“… it begins to look as if we ourselves, by the last-minute decision, have an influence on what photon will do when it has already accomplished most of its doing… we have to say that we ourselves have an undeniable part in the shaping what we have always called past. The past is not really the past until it has been registered. Or put it another way, the past has no meaning or existence unless it exist as a record in the present”.
- John Wheeler

 

“Solipsism may be logically consistent with present Quantum Mechanics, Monism in the sense of Materialism is not.”
- Eugene Wigner

 

"It was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness."
- Eugene Wigner

 

"We have to give up the idea of realism to a far greater extent than most physicists believe today."
- Anton Zeilinger

 

Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the illusion of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism.”
- Richard Conn Henry and Stephen Palmquist

 

"Observations not only disturb what has to be measured, they produce it… We compel [a quantum particle] to assume a definite position."
- Pascual Jordan

 

"It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,"
- Andrew Truscott

 

“As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clearheaded science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about the atoms this much: There is no matter as such!"
Max Planck

 

"The atoms or elementary particles themselves are not real; they form a world of potentialities or possibilities rather than one of things or facts."
- Werner Heisenberg

 

"The doctrine that the world is made up of objects whose existence is independent of human consciousness turns out to be in conflict with quantum mechanics and with facts established by experiment."
- Bernard d'Espagnat

 

“It is basic for physics that one assumes a real world existing independently from any act of perception - but this we do not know."
- Albert Einstein

 

"

"If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics."

- Richard Feynman"

 

Leo presumably thinks he understands quantum mechanics, which means he doesn't.

This is too complicated, let's just take drugs and talk gibberish.