Consequences of a unregulated dating market (hypergamy)

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, zazen said:

To start with see that there is a problem, then we can figure out solutions. But yes your right, there is no problem. Everyone is in a happy stable relationships and not alone and suffering in our society. Morgan Stanley with all their billions are delusional also to be investing money to research into trends of how over half the population of mating age will be living alone by 2030 and how this impacts real estate and the wider economy. 

https://www.morganstanley.com/ideas/womens-impact-on-the-economy

The stage green, free love utopia that people think will exist where everyone is loved is a disney dream at least in the short to medium term. The people on this forum may be able to love each other despite their not being any attraction but this is under 1 percent of the population. People aren't evolved enough, men aren't evolved enough to love a unattractive lady in the romantic sense, and neither are women to love a weak man who they have to take care of. Until we get to the point where a woman will see the weakest men and consciously be able to say, this man isn't getting any love so I will love him un conditionally, even though Im not attracted to them as it would be better for our society and stop movements such as incels or extreme red pill from propping up, only then can that society function. 

Our culture and psychology may think in stage green, but our biology will takes thousands of years to evolve to stage green and for it to happen very naturally for us. Nature influences our genes, but we are also able to influence our genes by what we select for and pro create with, just that this takes a very very long time. Maybe in a thousand years babies will be born who are able to love unconditionally without attraction, who knows..

You’re making that assumption again that only a small percentage of the population will have people attracted to them.

But as I’ve said before, most people are capable of being attracted to most people.

And NO ONE needs to be with anyone that they’re not attracted to. Attraction is just the pre-requisite for romance to occur.

And people tend to be attracted to their match… especially women. 

In a person who is emotionally mature enough to sustain a long term relationship, looks and status are just the initial bar that has to be crossed. And for most people, that bar is analogous to where they are personally.

If you look at statistics (or if you just go to a flea market or grocery store), you’ll see that most people have a partner who matches them.

So this people only being attracted to millionaires and supermodels thing is not actually a real issue. Dispossess yourself of that illusion.

[zazen]

@Emerald

I understand where your coming from. Its not even about the 1%. I guess people use the extreme end to get the point across. Lets say if even 70% of men are attractive enough and able to get a partner. How does society look if 30% who aren't able to stay single even though they don't desire too. The other 30% of women who those men could partner with, maybe those women decide they'd rather not go with them and live out their aspirations as they have the option to do so in todays free world, and there is no compulsion for them to be with those men because women don't depend those men for their livelihood. 

Their is equality of outcome and equality of opportunity. You could say a stage green free love society is in a sense capitalistic, because it is a free market where everyone has equality of opportunity to get the mate they'd like. In the past they pretty much enforced equality of outcome ie every man and woman has a partner. It's the same way as how the far left try to enforce equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. Interesting way of looking at the situation. 

 

Maybe in the past it would have a destabilising affect on society. But now we have pornography, and other avenues of entertainment to almost satiate / sedate these men. Yet, we still get some who can't handle the pressure of their sexual urge and let it out in a grim fashion. We had a shooting here in UK last month in Plymouth by a self professed incel in fact killing a few people including his mother. A lot of the school shooters were in similar situations. I think for women the sexual urge isn't as intense as it is for men. Men can be horny most of the time where as for women its with the right man in the right context and setting. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by zazen

[Windappreciator]

@zazen @zazen 

Stage Green love is not a market and it's not like a market.

[Late Boomer]

Already shared this in another sub-forum where this was a topic starter. Might be helpful to somebody...

It might be helpful to elaborate on my perspective. Correct me if I get my spiral dynamics confused, but I think I have the gist....

I only just discovered Carl Jung and how the ego mind is separate from the rest of the mind. I only just discovered what the shadow is, how it affects your life and what you can do about it. If I had discovered Jung in my 20s or 30s it would have changed everything, but I have no complaints. I think my path made me into who I was supposed to be at this moment. 

I was an incel before the term was coined. I literally never got laid till I was 47. I'm 56 now.

I grew up in a very stage blue environment. Small towns in the rural South. Fundamentalist Christian. My parents were very much in love and did it the traditional way. Very good parents, but they couldn't control for all events. I experienced some sexual trauma when I was a young child and I was bullied in junior high, including by girls I was attracted to. I was also arty and bookish in a very anti-intellectual community. I became very introverted and built up a pretty strong shell. (On the upside, I learned not to care if anyone liked me or not, which has served me well.)

It didn't occur to me to blame women or society, because red pill dogma didn't exist yet, but I was lonely. I wanted sex, no idea how to get it. I understand now that events from my youth were embedded deep within my psyche and were unconsciously controlling my behavior and demeanor. AKA, my shadow.

As a result I had no game. I could talk to a girl about books or school or religion or what have you, but I was terrified to get personal, even if I really wanted to. Looking back, I can think of several I could have dated if I'd had guts enough to try, but I always found excuses why they weren't "the one." Instead, I had crushes I never acted on and used porn. And went on with my life.

I was lucky enough to find a career that let me use my brains, which is hard to come by in small townsville - newspaper journalism. It forced me to learn to talk to all kinds of people, learn to take criticism and develop skills and confidence. I evolved from stage blue Republican to stage orange libertarian Republican, but for dating I still had stage blue attitudes - monogamy, preferably the girl would be a virgin (so I wouldn't be judged if I couldn't perform), double standard for myself if I happened to get laid by some miracle. 

Again, I can think of plenty of missed opportunities. Any excuse not to try. I wanted what Mom and Dad had. As a result, any time I went on a date, I put pressure on myself - "this has to be the one" - which made for awkward dates, which I lied to myself about.

It didn't get better until I finally reached the point of now or never.

And became disillusioned with the right wing and evolved into stage green, which is more compatible with the type of woman I wanted - a smart woman with culture, who I could talk to and who would understand. And wound up in the orbit of a city full of women with those values. I went on enough dates until one of them clicked, and we're now married. And I guess I'm still somewhat stage blue about that because I have no desire to be with anyone else, nor does she. We're in this to the end. 

Again, no regrets. If I had settled down with someone earlier, I might have become stuck in a small town in a conservative culture with a hyper religious partner. When I inevitably became an atheist and progressive and whatever kind of spiritual but not religious creature I am today, I would have gotten a divorce, lost custody of any children, had an ex and in-laws that hated me. Or would have to suffer in silence and live a lie.

It took me decades to get where I am now. Stage green heading into stage yellow and hopefully beyond, more in touch with my feelings and more confident for it. If you want to get there faster than I did, do the work.

Study your shadow and find out what's holding you back. Have the courage to admit when you're wrong, face the things you're ashamed and afraid of in yourself. Be skeptical about your skepticism. Maybe get therapy. Read some Jung. Listen to some thinkers like Eckhart Tolle and Alan Watts. I would say try mushrooms like I did, but if you're not ready you could have a rough time of it. You have to be willing to lower your defenses.

That you're here is a good sign. 

I haven't solved all my problems. I'm currently an old progressive without a job in a radicalizing Southern state. I have to figure out where I'm going next. I still have things in my shadow that are holding me back. That's why I'm here.

[roopepa]

42 minutes ago, Late Boomer said:

I'm currently an old progressive without a job in a radicalizing Southern state.

A bit off-topic, but I assume you mean MAGA/Conservatives with the "radicalizing"?

What is it like? Is there violence? Organized groups? What does it look like? I'm asking this because it is very different to hear from someone actually seeing it happen rather than just read it from the news and social media.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

@Emerald

I understand where your coming from. Its not even about the 1%. I guess people use the extreme end to get the point across. Lets say if even 70% of men are attractive enough and able to get a partner. How does society look if 30% who aren't able to stay single even though they don't desire too. The other 30% of women who those men could partner with, maybe those women decide they'd rather not go with them and live out their aspirations as they have the option to do so in todays free world, and there is no compulsion for them to be with those men because women don't depend those men for their livelihood. 

Their is equality of outcome and equality of opportunity. You could say a stage green free love society is in a sense capitalistic, because it is a free market where everyone has equality of opportunity to get the mate they'd like. In the past they pretty much enforced equality of outcome ie every man and woman has a partner. It's the same way as how the far left try to enforce equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. Interesting way of looking at the situation. 

 

Maybe in the past it would have a destabilising affect on society. But now we have pornography, and other avenues of entertainment to almost satiate / sedate these men. Yet, we still get some who can't handle the pressure of their sexual urge and let it out in a grim fashion. We had a shooting here in UK last month in Plymouth by a self professed incel in fact killing a few people including his mother. A lot of the school shooters were in similar situations. I think for women the sexual urge isn't as intense as it is for men. Men can be horny most of the time where as for women its with the right man in the right context and setting. 

Back in the day and now is probably about the same in terms of people finding partners.

Back then, it was probably more common for men to die young because of war. That’s probably the biggest difference.

But why is it your assumption that there’s 30% of men who are just not going to have women attracted to them?

It’s an assumption that’s not based in reality at all. 

I’ve met plenty of lame guys in my life. And none of them were incapable of finding women who were interested in them.

For example, there’s a guy I used to know that looked like a walrus and was really creepy and weird. He had nothing going for him at all in any department. And even he had a few girlfriends in the time I knew him.

You seriously need to go live in a redneck town for a while. You’ll realize that no one is totally unfuckable.

You just have to get in touch with the reality of how people pair bond. It isn’t this extreme thing you’re imagining where tons of people are just hopeless.

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

I think you're right in this. This is pretty observable, and mostly correct, with maybe few exceptions.

I know I’m right about it. My eyes don’t deceive me. The mundane reality is much gentler and nicer than the falsehood.

People are people. And there’s literally no one out there who’s universally undesirable. 

And anyone who’s a 3 and above won’t even struggle to find someone, as long as they have reasonable expectations of finding a partner in their league… and enough self-esteem to put themselves out there.

[Late Boomer]

@roopepa It looks like Texas. Main impact on me was having to leave a job for reasons of conscience. In addition I'm almost completely alienated from most of my aunts, uncles and cousins who still live in the country. I still love them, but I can't talk to them. They were good people once. Mom and Dad are gone. Glad they didn't live to see this.

My wife and I are lucky enough to live in a somewhat progressive city, but it has a different problem - gentrification by people who call themselves liberals, but who have no social conscience. Homelessness is exploding and people have no empathy. The culture and music I came here for has mostly been priced out of the city, which is starting to have more of an LA vibe. Not so progressive any more.

The vibe from state government is getting pretty ominous as you probably know from the news. When you drive through the countryside, you see a lot of Gadsen flags and Trump 2024 flags. People don't wear masks or get vaccinated in the country. When I go there I can feel the tension. 

Although when I think about it, most of the right wing aggression doesn't really come from the country, it comes from the more affluent conservative suburbs. Country folks are being played and will end up being scapegoated as they always have been. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Late Boomer
said city when I meant country

[Late Boomer]

2 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

I suppose the previously experienced and unprocessed pain or trauma, makes painfull conclusions more believable than the nice ones.

Bingo. 

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

I suppose the previously experienced and unprocessed pain or trauma, makes painfull conclusions more believable than the nice ones.

Yes exactly 

[Late Boomer]

1 hour ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

@Late Boomer Wow, that's super inspiring dude. Beautifull post. I can see myself in that shadow thing a little bit. Although I was a lot luckier than you when it comes to enviroment I was raised in.

The bastards that destroy our lives
Are sometimes just ourselves
But mostly they're invisible
I hope they fry in hell

- Robyn Hitchcock

[Karmadhi]

@Preety_India

17 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Don't care too much about what other guys think. Maybe they are not emotionally developed. Lack of emotional development is a handicap in relationships. 

You don't need to focus on people who never put much effort in developing themselves. 

I do not. However when i explain a phenomena i will describe how most guys are. Of course what they do or think is not important to me. I do my thing, they do theirs.

17 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Again wrong here. I have been hit on by guys who only wanted sex. It was a trap rather than a privilege. It in fact caused me to completely give up dating because my needs of intimacy were never met. 

Guys like you hardly approach girls 

Most guys who approach girls are very manipulative and girls end up with bad experiences. 

But most girls want a guy like you however guys like you hardly approach. 

A better way of putting it would be "guys like you get friendzoned by girls and not thought of as a romantic options because they give a cute vibe instead of a masculine vibe". Trust me, guys like me approach and talk to girls. Talking to girls is not the issue, is getting them attracted to you. You cannot be with someone if they love you as a brother instead of as a potential partner. Hence the need for these guys to learn how to attract girls. Humor, playfulness and learning to flirt is a good start. You do not need to be a manipulative bastard, however you need to work on yourself. Girls will not want to be with you just because they think you are kind or smart or even decent looking. If you cannot flirt, make her laugh , lack boldness and assertivness you re kinda fucked. Hence guys need to practice this shit because it does not come naturally for some. Esepcially boldness.

 

17 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Why are trying to attract a girl who is only interested in looks? 

I am not. I just gave it as an example of guys that do not need to do shit. Same argument could be given for very rich or famous guys.

 

17 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Judging by your profile pic, you look better than 60% men. You don't have any reason to feel insecure. 

Thank you, i appreciate it. I am not insecure anymore,dw.

 

[zazen]

I think its easy to dismiss points made by someone under 'someone must have hurt him'. People can try to just be looking objectively at things. Maybe in the older generation or currently we can see couples together matched on their level, but whats invisible to us is who's single, this could also depend on where you live ie in big cities their are far more singles and urbanisation is ever increasing in the modern and developing world. It could also be generational. We'r discussing not just the reality now but the trends and what could be. 

In the millennial and coming generations singleness is increasing as a lot has changed since social media etc came about. These are shown in stats, even Morgan Stanley are researching and preparing for where to invest as almost half the population of adult age are predicted to be single by 2030. This isn't all due to feminism as a lot of bitter red pill guys may come to the conclusion of. Its nuance, and their are socio economic reasons, technological reasons and the way we live our life in the modern world. The desire and need for human connection however is the main concern of the day. 

Red pill can definitely be absolutist and very simplistic and that is its danger, it doesn't discount that their must be some problems people are having in modern dating and that men are seeking out answers. 

Women wish to be in monogamous relationships and finding partners is hard in old age for both sexes, yet still 70% of divorces are initiated by women. This can't be because all those relationships were abusive, but maybe just the lack of awareness and long term thinking that it would better serve them to work on the relationship and have emotional stability in the long run. Maybe we are given the illusion that we can meet people easily because of living in big cities, and having access via the internet to a world of men and women options out there. Most men struggle and have less options than women so are usually not wanting to leave relationships as easily in general. 

Interesting video by Alexander Grace.

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by zazen

[zazen]

Monogamy has been a stabilising mechanism in civilisation, small scale tribes can be more easily open sexually as theres a communitarian aspect but at scale it doesn't seem to work too well. Also, evolution doesn't care for emotional health, just to pass genes for survival / reproduction. In todays world physically we can be safe and healthy with open sexuality thanks to contraception, the economy etc but is it safe emotionally? Theres reasons from a biology/evolutionary perspective why women are protective of their sexuality as it means them being handicapped during the birthing process, and having to provide/protect the child, so women naturally want to vet / filter men and obtain their commitment. In the modern age those fears aren't as bad, nonetheless it is hardwired in our biology still. 

 

Keeping biology aside, what about from a spiritual perspective. Theres a lot of talk about soul ties etc by the spiritual minded in the west, and in the east we can look to Sadhguru who's explained from a karmic/memory perspective how having multiple partners can have an affect on us. Whether its based in reality, or just a theory / story told to believe in as it functionally works for the stability of the society is another thing. Sometimes its not the stories of god or religion are literally true, but more that just behaving in a way that it is true is better overall for society.

A green open love society at least sexually seems very far off, or if its brought about to abruptly in stead of society growing into it naturally can cause emotional imbalance, and no society can function when its people are emotionally imbalanced. A quarter of women in the US are on psych meds, there must be many reasons for this but if open sexuality and promotion of it in the name of equality (that women can do what men can do although for men sex can easily be detached from emotion) is one of the causing contributors shouldn't society really question it. Where rightism is the dark side of male nature (excess rigidity/order/strength) in political form, leftism is the dark side of female nature in political form (excess freedom/chaos/softness of boundaries). 

 Here's Sadhguru's take:

 

'It's not the question of morality, it's the question of living sensibly.' Its not woman bashing, or sexuality bashing. Indulgence, and repression are two extremes. Question is wheres the middle ground. 

 

https://isha.sadhguru.org/global/en/wisdom/article/emotional-security-importance-how-to-build

Edited September 29, 2021 by zazen

[zazen]

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by zazen

[funcool]

On 9/17/2021 at 2:51 PM, Emerald said:

The only problem is that there’s a huge group of men who are brainwashed into believing there is a problem.

Things are fine. They just need to socialize and go and meet women.

Also, if I were to have a choice to incarnate into a society and I could only base that incarnation off of one statistic about the society… I’d choose to incarnate into the society with the highest divorce rate.

And that’s because you’d know it was a freer society than any with low divorce rates. High divorce rate is a very good sign. And longevity is a piss-poor litmus test for the quality of a relationship.

Guys don't have the privilege of thinking there are no problems and just slide through life. If that worked it would have already been the norm and most guys have likely already tried that and it failed. Girls can ignore problems because they are inherently valued and aren't obligated to fix the worlds problems to gain value. 
The whole redpill thing is gaining ground online cuz its the only place where guys can talk about their problems without being ostracized. The problems they've identified have already existed in society and they are just reporting their experience, it isn't some malevolent ideology being broadcasted by reptilians or demons.

Edited October 7, 2021 by funcool

[Jacob Morres]

@zazen 

19 hours ago, zazen said:

 

just realized it's a massive victim story. yes partial truths here and there but the whole dating apps sucks for guys is extremely disempowering! i think a healthier creator perspective is critical

i cant imagine being poor and then looking at my challenges and then saying omg look how bad it sucks to be poor, no time no opportunity, it just sucks to be poor (ofc def not a 1:1 comparison) 

WAKE UP !! 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Jacob Morres

[Shin]

Can't wait to get my permit to date a 4.0 girl cause I'm bald.

Surely being bald puts you on the lower end of the permit spectrum

[Leo Gura]

Locking this because this is not in the spirit of personal development and perpetuates a sort of Incel mentality here.