Consequences of a unregulated dating market (hypergamy)

[Arcangelo]

On 9/16/2021 at 4:07 AM, zazen said:

Disclaimer: These are not my words but an interesting thread I came across elsewhere and would like to share, and have a healthy discussion on. 

Just a definition of Hypergamy : the action of marrying or forming a sexual relationship with a person of a superior sociological or educational background. Women's instinct to mate with superiors genes basically for  the betterment of the species (evolution)

 

Unless you're chad, famous or a sociopath - you won't have multiple women in love with you at the same time. Unless you're a ridiculously beautiful and sweet woman - you won't ever marry an "elite high value man™" Hypergamy and polygamy whilst complementary, are not sustainable. They are not sustainable, because they exclude the vast majority of the population. Most men are by definition, not elite high value men. Most women are not exceptionally beautiful and chaste, nor of the correct temperament and genetics to be marriageable for an elite man.

 

The role of religion in society, in large part, is to regulate the dysfunction that results from these instincts. It forces the men who can have many women to pick one, and all the average woman who think they deserve a top 0.1% man to date a man at their own level. So civilizational monogamy is probably the greatest gift of religion. It essentially ensures the vast majority of the population gets a mate, by curbing natural instincts and holding people accountable to their families and communities. Atomised irreligiosity breaks this. You won't "fix society" if you allow hypergamy and polygamy to run amok unchecked. Without adequate social pressure, most women would rather die alone surrounded by cats, than date a man at or just above their own level - especially if a superior man used and left her before.

 

A woman who has had sex with top tier men thinks she is deserving of a top tier man for marriage and refuses to "lower her standards" - not realising that she never met those men's standards for marriage to begin with - hence why they're gone. Men sleep with women they wouldn't marry and can detach emotion from sex. So women are not only naturally predisposed to feel entitled to the best for no logical reason whatsoever, irrespective of their own value and what they bring to the table, but are furthermore susceptible to even greater delusion when said men give them an oxytocin induced taste. This is why the dating market, like so many markets, needs regulation. When it's laissez-faire, the majority of people lose out whilst a few winners get more than their fill. And society stops working properly when the majority of people are forever single or divorced.

 

Traditional Abrahamic religion of course, is that form of regulation. Extreme feminism is the antithesis, because it is anti-regulation. It promotes a free for all, which naturally means a lot of sex for a minority of men, and a dearth of loving committed relationships for most women. You can, quite literally, trace the problems with the mating market today back to the absence of religion. What other system regulates mating practices? None. Doesn't matter how you feel about God or religion - that's irrelevant. What's important is a functioning system.

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As leo mentioned in one of his videos regarding we need regulation on devilry ie in our hunter gatherer days we could get by without much regulation but at scale we need government and regulation or else civilisation won't work. In today's society the only regulation force on our sexuality is ourselves. It is only our level of awareness of our human nature and by choice and consciousness we can make decisions that are good for us in the long term and for society at large. This will be the greatest test of our times. 

 

 

 Hypergamy is real.

 

[FlyingLotus]

On 9/16/2021 at 8:05 AM, universe said:

I think if men want to change the way the dating market works, anyone who suggests this should start by having a romantical relationship with an older and unattractive woman. There are many lonely obese, bitter or unsocial woman out there. Start with the ones with some mental or health problems, too.

Then begin a family and your kids can be the first in line for a regulated dating market.

After all, if that is your vision, you should be willing to take the first step?  

? I wish this would pop up whenever someone starts writing toxic, hateful stuff in the dating forum.

 

It’s tough to figure out tone on the internet, but the following message is intended to be kind and helpful, with zero shaming towards people who fixate on dating issues they zero control over:

          You sound very lonely and heartbroken.  There’s no shame in that.  Everyone has emotional issues that need to be seen and soothed so they can feel safe.  It sounds like you feel powerless and have low self-esteem because you’ve been betrayed in romance, or maybe had a hyper critical, neglectful mom and subconsciously believe all women will be like her.

          Maybe it’s easier to generalize your situation to “98% of men” because it’s less painful to think “love doesn’t exist for men” rather than “love doesn’t exist for me.”    

          Problem is if you’re looking for soothing on a forum, it’s an ineffective strategy.  Especially because people here have a mindset towards believing they can overcome their problems through learning and hard work.  Until you address your emotional needs yourself, hearing the excellent advice of very patient folks like @Emerald, @flowboy and others will sound like, “Nobody understands me.  Nobody loves me.  Love doesn’t exist.”  So you’ll be stuck.

          Have you considered talking to a professional who can address your emotional problems with maximum effectiveness?  Someone you can relate to in real life?  Or combining shadow work with psychedelics?

          With any tough situation you have three choices: Leave it.  Change it.  Accept it.  It sounds like you haven’t picked a choice yet.  Why not? 

          If you had a magic wand and could get the forum to respond however you want, what would they say?  Would they give you a foolproof action plan to get the life you want, or would they give you soothing and say, “Yes that sounds terrible.  Society sucks.  You’re the victim.”

          If you’d rather have emotional soothing instead of solutions, you need to address the real emotional problem that’s going on rather than swallowing toxic pill ideology.  There’s no shame in having problems.  You just need to address them properly to stop the suffering.

          Watch these videos.  They sound like your situation.  I’ve highlighted a certain part of the videos, but watch the whole thing.  They’re great.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by FlyingLotus

[Raptorsin7]

@zazen Unfortunate that no one is willing to engage with the actual substance of what you're saying.

 

[FlyingLotus]

@Raptorsin7 What parts of what he's saying do you think people should be engaging with?

[Emerald]

8 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@zazen Unfortunate that no one is willing to engage with the actual substance of what you're saying.

 

I did engage with the substance of what he was saying.

I called it nonsense… because it’s all a bunch of armchair philosophizing and bro-science that’s not actually based on the realities of real human relationship dynamics.

And it’s important to call it out as such because so many young guys are murdering their own self-esteems based on a false idea… which the OP proliferates.

Overall, I’d hope we can all agree to stop proliferating conspiracy theories about female sexuality… and then also to stop proposing solutions to problems that don’t actually exist.

The only issue here is that these men prefer their own ideas to the realities of actually coming to know and love a woman. And that requires ZERO regulation. It just requires a man to let go of his bs ideas and actually talk to real women.

[zazen]

@FlyingLotus Thank you for the links, Teal swan is amazing. Im actually fine and had a very healthy upbringing and amazing relationships. The original post was actual content from else where that I found interesting and wanted the forums insight on. If you go through some of my later comments in the thread I think you'll see my perspective more clearly and that is not all negative or that I'm hurt. 

 

@Emerald Im being as based in reality as much as possible. You'v overlooked my previous responses to your comments. I'v felt love and am loved in life by family and friends. But to keep these realities in the dark and not understand it is what is hurting a lot of people out there so better to understand our own biology and why we do what we do. Our culture has evolved drastically, but our biologies have not. The fundamental problems we face, are that we live with our primal instinct in a modern environment, if those instincts aren't tempered with our intelligence we go into chaos. It seems you like the idea of reality, rather than reality itself. I see reality and people for what it is and what they are, in its animal aspect and its divine also aspect and love it despite itself for what it is.

 

@Raptorsin7  Its unfortunate indeed.  I think I came with substance, delivered in style, and speedily but hey. As Marry Poppin's say, a spoonful of sugar,helps the medicine go down. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by zazen

[zazen]

21 minutes ago, FlyingLotus said:

@Raptorsin7 What parts of what he's saying do you think people should be engaging with?

Elsewhere in this thread I had written this.

Yes, what people feel is love in lower case, is just our biology at work drawing us closer and flooding us with feel good chemicals in order to procreate and propagate the species. Underlying all this is Love with a capital L, that is god / life. Love is embedded in reality, including us. It is the animating force that moves all form including man and woman to its own realisation. God is the seed, we are the flowering. 

In moments of orgasm and flooded with chemicals, we can forget ourselves, and come into union. When the ego is dropped in moments orgasm/union, Love is revealed to us. Although this moment is temporary and short lived, but it gives man a experience of the beyond, they know their is more to this life than just surface. The other person was just the trigger that helped us feel this union. Of course, we are able to come to such states without the other and with meditation/awakening. That is the beauty of human relationship and the design of evolution, our animal nature is used to reveal to us our divine nature. It is god in play, in hide and seek. 

 

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A holistic perspective includes both the material and the spiritual. The blind side of materialists is they exalt only our animal nature (and the cruel darwinian zero sum game aspect of it only) BUT the blind side of so called spiritualists is they exalt only our divine nature and deny the animal nature (as its cold and hurts our sense of morality on some level) and think all is just lovey dovey. The fact these truths sting a little is good, it shows sensitivity and that we are human and attuned to something higher in us that wishes to move away from that animal instinct, and to move towards intelligent living. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by zazen

[Windappreciator]

@zazen It's not our biology. Neither women's nore men's. It's the level of psychological development you radiate.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Windappreciator

[zazen]

6 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

@zazen It's not our biology. Neither women's nore men's. It's the level of psychological development you radiate.

So biology doesn't exist? Yes, psychology can affect our biology and vica versa. We are souls incarnate into flesh. Carnate comes from carnal - latin root flesh. Carnival (celebration of flesh - drink dance feast) carnivore (flesh eater) etc. We are souls in flesh (the formless in form), you can't deny the flesh or the form  we are in, our biology. It's not either or, its both and. 

A holistic perspective includes the material and the spiritual. The blind side of materialists is they exalt only our animal nature (and the cruel darwinian zero sum game aspect of it only) BUT the blind side of so called spiritualists is they exalt only our divine nature and deny the animal nature (as its cold and hurts our sense of morality on some level) and think all is just lovey dovey. The fact these truths sting a little is good, it shows sensitivity and that we are human and attuned to something higher in us that wishes to move away from that animal instinct, and to move towards intelligent living. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by zazen

[Windappreciator]

@zazen Again,

It's not our biology, but your psychological development.

[FlyingLotus]

26 minutes ago, zazen said:

Im actually fine and had a very healthy upbringing and amazing relationships.

That's good to hear.  Congrats ?

My post is probably better suited to all the incel types who post or lurk, rather than only you in particular, so I'll change that.  

 

26 minutes ago, zazen said:

The original post was actual content from else where that I found interesting and wanted the forums insight on.

Since this is a personal development forum, most people will look at it from the perspective of "problems happen, what do I do about it?"  Rather than focusing on things they can't control.  

Threads about how "dating sucks but I don't want to do anything about it" pop up all the time, so there's probably some impatience surrounding this subject in general. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by FlyingLotus

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, zazen said:

 

@Emerald Im being as based in reality as possible. You'v overlooked my previous responses to your comments. I'v felt love and am loved in life by family and friends. But to keep these realities in the dark and not understand it is what is hurting a lot of people out there so better to understand our own biology and why we do what we do. Our culture has evolved drastically, but our biologies have not. The fundamental problems we face are that we live with our primal instinct in a modern environment, if those instincts aren't tempered with our intelligence we go into chaos. It seems you like the idea of reality, rather than reality itself. I see reality and people for what it is and what they are, in its animal aspect and its divine aspect and love it despite itself for what it is.

 

You have shown very little understanding about the role that biology plays in attraction because you haven’t accounted for any of the other realities and how much biology pales in comparison to those other factors.

The strongest factor that determines who we will be attracted to is psychology… not biology.

Biology is very basic in how it influences our attractions.

Basically… most people are biologically suited for reproduction. No one needs this excess of status or looks like you suggest in the OP. And the statistics show that most couples are nearly equivalent in regards to looks, age, education level, and status.

You can basically look at the world and see this. Next time you go to Target, just take a gander around at all the couples. You’ll see lots of average folks together.

High school drop outs tend to pair with high school dropouts. College educated people tend to pair with college educated people. 10s date 10s and 5s date 5s.

There’s an age hypergamy… where the man is 2 years older on average in a coupling. But that’s really the only general statistic you’ll find where there’s a marked disparity between partners on average. 

But what really determines a person’s relationship quality is their psychology and trauma patterns.

A person who has x trauma will tend to attract partners with y trauma. 

And if you want to ACTUALLY be helpful to people, just stop focusing on biology (which paints a very unrealistic picture of human relationships)… and start focusing on psychology.

[zazen]

1 minute ago, Windappreciator said:

@zazen Again,

It's not our biology, but your psychological development.

Psychology can't over ride our biology. Neither can culture supersede it. If psychologically you are developed and a woman came up to you and started rubbing on you, your biology is going to respond. Of course unless you are a Buddha, enlightened or a yogi but lets be realistic, we'r speaking about the general population. 

[FlyingLotus]

@Emerald's channel is awesome btw.  If her channel were a Silicon Valley engineer, it'd be doing all the boinking in the house (that only makes sense if you watch Silicon Valley.)

[Windappreciator]

@zazen

You are wasting your intelligence pointing at women or trying to correct them. 

Look inwardly. 

 

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, FlyingLotus said:

@Emerald's channel is awesome btw.  If her channel were a Silicon Valley engineer, it'd be doing all the boinking in the house (that only makes sense if you watch Silicon Valley.)

I don’t watch it. But I’m glad to hear that my channel would be getting lots of action in that universe. ?

[zazen]

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

You have shown very little understanding about the role that biology plays in attraction because you haven’t accounted for any of the other realities and how much biology pales in comparison to those other factors.

The strongest factor that determines who we will be attracted to is psychology… not biology.

Biology is very basic in how it influences our attractions.

Basically… most people are biologically suited for reproduction. No one needs this excess of status or looks like you suggest in the OP. And the statistics show that most couples are nearly equivalent in regards to looks, age, education level, and status.

You can basically look at the world and see this. Next time you go to Target, just take a gander around at all the couples. You’ll see lots of average folks together.

High school drop outs tend to pair with high school dropouts. College educated people tend to pair with college educated people. 10s date 10s and 5s date 5s.

There’s an age hypergamy… where the man is 2 years older on average in a coupling. But that’s really the only general statistic you’ll find where there’s a marked disparity between partners on average. 

But what really determines a person’s relationship quality is their psychology and trauma patterns.

A person who has x trauma will tend to attract partners with y trauma. 

And if you want to ACTUALLY be helpful to people, just stop focusing on biology (which paints a very unrealistic picture of human relationships)… and start focusing on psychology.

Yes, biology and psychology are intermeshed and influence each other greatly. If someone attractive jokes around and makes someone laugh, it triggers psychologically which influences their biology. As the saying goes, women fall in love with their ears and  men with their eyes. Status comes in many forms. A male strong on a physical, emotional, financial, social, spiritual level can all display status in the eyes of women. It's not as simple as rich man = status = attractive. Theirs different strengths men can display, and women can respond to in attraction. This is reason enough for men not to become depressed, because a lot can be worked on that is in their control. Their body, their attitude, their social skills, humor, emotional resilience (not being unavailable/cold as a lot of the bro's would advise lol)  

[zazen]

@FlyingLotus I'll check it out. Im new here so go easy on me : p It's all in good faith and love. 

[flowboy]

37 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I called it nonsense… because it’s all a bunch of armchair philosophizing and bro-science that’s not actually based on the realities of real human relationship dynamics.

And it’s important to call it out as such because so many young guys are murdering their own self-esteems based on a false idea… which the OP proliferates.

Overall, I’d hope we can all agree to stop proliferating conspiracy theories about female sexuality… and then also to stop proposing solutions to problems that don’t actually exist.

Thank you, that was satisfying to read

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, zazen said:

Yes, biology and psychology are intermeshed and influence each other greatly. If someone attractive jokes around and makes someone laugh, it triggers psychologically which influences their biology. As the saying goes, women fall in love with their ears and  men with their eyes. Status comes in many forms. A male strong on a physical, emotional, financial, social, spiritual level can all display status in the eyes of women. It's not as simple as rich man = status = attractive. Theirs different strengths men can display, and women can respond to in attraction. This is reason enough for men not to become depressed, because a lot can be worked on that is in their control. Their body, their attitude, their social skills, humor, emotional resilience (not being unavailable/cold as a lot of the bro's would advise lol)  

Then why proliferate the ideas in your OP?

Your post was basically like, “Oh no! Women only like the top 1% of guys but most women aren’t good enough to measure up to those guys’ standards! So, men and women end up lonely because these undeserving women have free choice over their partners! We need to regulate people’s dating choices to save us from the scourge of Feminism and women’s hypergamous ways!”

But if you already know that women tend to go for their match… then why even suggest regulation?