Consequences of a unregulated dating market (hypergamy)

[flowboy]

@zazen I can see your intentions are good, but you haven't questioned your base assumptions enough.

This is trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist in reality.

Yes, also the stuff about "evolutionary biology and how it drives our behavior" and how we have to "accept these hard truths" - are part of the mirage. Part of the myth that is crafted in order to draw in more hurt and bitter men, and selling them books and content instead of helping them heal.

In reality, any emotionally healthy man who has his life reasonably together can find more than enough attractive women - and if he wants the attention of hundreds or thousands of twenty year olds, he can go play in a band or do something else cool that he gets recognition for.

People who believe that that is false, usually do so because their emotional health and/or life is not together, and they don't want to do the work to fix it.

Edited September 16, 2021 by flowboy

[zazen]

52 minutes ago, flowboy said:

@zazen I can see your intentions are good, but you haven't questioned your base assumptions enough.

This is trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist in reality.

Yes, also the stuff about "evolutionary biology and how it drives our behavior" and how we have to "accept these hard truths" - are part of the mirage. Part of the myth that is crafted in order to draw in more hurt and bitter men, and selling them books and content instead of helping them heal.

In reality, any emotionally healthy man who has his life reasonably together can find more than enough attractive women - and if he wants the attention of hundreds or thousands of twenty year olds, he can go play in a band or do something else cool that he gets recognition for.

People who believe that that is false, usually do so because their emotional health and/or life is not together, and they don't want to do the work to fix it.

How is accepting the truth of evolutionary biology a mirage ?  It is true but whats also true is these men need to take responsibility and grow. They just need some guidance what to grow towards and to understand why their failing in the first place. 

Definitely a healthy man who is stronger physically, emotionally, mentally, socially and spiritually can find a attractive mate but that is what is lacking today due to various reasons ( screens, lack of socialisation, poor health from poor diet/lifestyle which fuels a strong sense of well being besides the physical, growing up in single mother households and then being brought up in the education system which is mostly female teachers so these boys never had a strong male role model to learn how to be a man from, economic difficulty leading to living at home with parents making it harder to date even). And now the mens movement thats popping up is telling men to better themselves, although a lot in its negative form ie to fuck lots of bitches, these girls aren't loyal etc. The divorce laws also have hurt a lot of men from the older generation and todays boys are seeing what their fathers have gone through and no longer want to opt in for marriage, can get a negative. 

Doesn't the lack of strong men today suggest the problem does exist in reality and that takes the form of what we are seeing now as incels, red pill culture, virginity rates for men (not so much women) increasing. Maybe they always existed but now we just know about it due to the internet, but the stats are showing otherwise. 

The fact that male virginity increases 3 times to 30% since 2008/2010 when social media came about ( read: women had easier access to higher quality males like never before leaving the average males behind - hypergamy ) but women's virginity only so slightly increased, meaning those top men are having more and more access to the same pool of women and those women are gravitating to such men shows what happening in real time. Even studies done on dating apps show that women only rate the top 10-20% as dateable, whereas for guys they see majority of the women as dateable. Of course, if these women just met these guys in person these men would be able to exhibit other characteristics in person as so much is lost online and women in general are attracted to non physical attributes more so which the online world cuts them off from (voice, eye contact, body language, vibe etc). But life has moved online which further skews the dating scene to the superficial. 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by zazen

[Emerald]

So many of these Red Pill guys are so detached from what a relationship is that they substitute in their own robotic form of bro-science.

Too much internet rotting out their brains and self-esteems.

You’d think that people are all mono-focused robots based on how they see it. They read no nuance into matters of love and connection. It’s all just a Darwinian survival game that everyone but some mysterious Chad guy wins.

Just go out and talk to women and you’ll see that most women who become attracted to you will like you for you.

And it isn’t all just some hierarchical and brutal game. There is love to be had between two human beings.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

It certainly IS a brutal game.

It can be if you treat it that way.

But you don’t need to treat it that way. It’s not about finding some objectively perfect person.

But if you’re a woman who seeks only status or a man who seeks only beauty… it will chew you up and spit you out. But that’s because it will mirror your own objectification and fears of inadequacy to you. Play Darwinian games… face a Darwinian fate.

But if you attune your intuition to who actually resonates with you, it isn’t so brutal. It’s a process of connecting with those on the same wavelength.

And if it sucks… your wavelength probably sucks. Get a better wavelength.

[RickyFitts]

14 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And if it sucks… your wavelength probably sucks. Get a better wavelength.

Preach, sister 

[zazen]

57 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So many of these Red Pill guys are so detached from what a relationship is that they substitute in their own robotic form of bro-science.

Too much internet rotting out their brains and self-esteems.

You’d think that people are all mono-focused robots based on how they see it. They read no nuance into matters of love and connection. It’s all just a Darwinian survival game that everyone but some mysterious Chad guy wins.

Just go out and talk to women and you’ll see that most women who become attracted to you will like you for you.

And it isn’t all just some hierarchical and brutal game. There is love to be had between two human beings.

Yes, these guys would be better suited to getting out in the real world and taking action. Too much abstraction and not enough action is an issue amongst these men, doubley so during lockdowns and being stuck at home, but it doesn't invalidate the principles. 

In the world of form there is hierarchy, of course in Love with a capital L there isn't. But we live between the two worlds, the world of the beast (our animal/darwinian nature) and that of the Bhudda, our higher nature to which we are all evolving towards. We are life incarnate (carnal - from flesh) in form and thats exactly the point, we are in flesh also. Man is animal, but animal is not all that he is. 

We are living within that physical realm and by certain physical laws. Its un appealing to us because our higher nature see's life otherwise and to what life could be, and us on the forum more so as we are more attuned to that higher nature, but this forum also only makes up say less than a percent of society so we can have certain bias towards the majority and just think 'oh these people, why can they just be loving'. I get it. 

Truth can be bitter in the beginning and sweet in the end as it leads to understanding, which leads to compassion for fellow men and women. Lies can be sweet in the beginning (as they comfort) and bitter in the end when life comes knocking down on those delusions. This understanding can save a lot of people from the heartache of going through life and being hurt one after the next. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by zazen

[flowboy]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

How is accepting the truth of evolutionary biology a mirage ?  It is true but whats also true is these men need to take responsibility and grow. They just need some guidance what to grow towards and to understand why their failing in the first place. 

Definitely a healthy man who is stronger physically, emotionally, mentally, socially and spiritually can find a attractive mate but that is what is lacking today due to various reasons ( screens, lack of socialisation, poor health from poor diet/lifestyle which fuels a strong sense of well being besides the physical, growing up in single mother households and then being brought up in the education system which is mostly female teachers so these boys never had a strong male role model to learn how to be a man from, economic difficulty leading to living at home with parents making it harder to date even). And now the mens movement thats popping up is telling men to better themselves, although a lot in its negative form ie to fuck lots of bitches, these girls aren't loyal etc. The divorce laws also have hurt a lot of men from the older generation and todays boys are seeing what their fathers have gone through and no longer want to opt in for marriage, can get a negative. 

Doesn't the lack of strong men today suggest the problem does exist in reality and that takes the form of what we are seeing now as incels, red pill culture, virginity rates for men (not so much women) increasing. Maybe they always existed but now we just know about it due to the internet, but the stats are showing otherwise. 

The fact that male virginity increases 3 times to 30% since 2008/2010 when social media came about ( read: women had easier access to higher quality males like never before leaving the average males behind - hypergamy ) but women's virginity only so slightly increased, meaning those top men are having more and more access to the same pool of women and those women are gravitating to such men shows what happening in real time. Even studies done on dating apps show that women only rate the top 10-20% as dateable, whereas for guys they see majority of the women as dateable. Of course, if these women just met these guys in person these men would be able to exhibit other characteristics in person as so much is lost online and women in general are attracted to non physical attributes more so which the online world cuts them off from (voice, eye contact, body language, vibe etc). But life has moved online which further skews the dating scene to the superficial. 

 

Okay for one: these surveys don't mean a lot, because they select for the type of person that would take a survey like that. Inherent problem with global surveys.

But let's assume it does.

You can see men are overreporting lack of sex compared to women. Their graph is related to women's graph, it's just a bit of an exaggeration of it. Women's reporting lack of sex also jumped up. Correspondingly, men's reported lack of sex jumped up. I don't think this shows anything related to women getting laid more. It's just that men complain about it more than women.

Between 2008 and 2018, more people were sexless. The difference in reporting has always been there, I think that's a bias related to sex. Women don't view lack of sex as as big of a problem as men, which is nothing new. It also makes sense that the relation is not linear. Men are just more inclined to complain about this, because sex is higher on their priority list typically.

What happened? Well, perhaps people got less shy about reporting their lack of sex. Perhaps the culture changed, and so there was less shame around it. People felt more entitled, and so were more inclined to see their sexless marriage as a problem? Keep in mind that these stats could very well be people in a relationship.

Bottom line: all this shows, is that this is what people who like to take surveys said in surveys.

I don't even know anybody who takes these surveys. Why would you? I've certainly got better things to do than fill out General Social Surveys. So this really selects for people who have nothing better to do, and like to waste time with stuff like that. Which is probably not most people, and could correlate heavily with lack of initiative to go out and meet people. This makes the data basically worthless.

Maybe social media is making people more lonely. Somehow. But even that is just a guess. Correlation does not imply causation.

Edited September 16, 2021 by flowboy

[Emerald]

43 minutes ago, zazen said:

Yes, these guys would be better suited to getting out in the real world and taking action. Too much abstraction and not enough action is an issue amongst these men, doubley so during lockdowns and being stuck at home, but it doesn't invalidate the principles. 

In the world of form there is hierarchy, of course in Love with a capital L there isn't. But we live between the two worlds, the world of the beast (our animal/darwinian nature) and that of the Bhudda, our higher nature to which we are all evolving towards. We are life incarnate (carnal - from flesh) in form and thats exactly the point, we are in flesh also. Man is animal, but animal is not all that he is. 

We are living within that physical realm and by certain physical laws. Its un appealing to us because our higher nature see's life otherwise and to what life could be, and us on the forum more so as we are more attuned to that higher nature, but this forum also only makes up say less than a percent of society so we can have certain bias towards the majority and just think 'oh these people, why can they just be loving'. I get it. 

Truth can be bitter in the beginning and sweet in the end as it leads to understanding, which leads to compassion for fellow men and women. Lies can be sweet in the beginning (as they comfort) and bitter in the end when life comes knocking down on those delusions. This understanding can save a lot of people from the heartache of going through life and being hurt one after the next. 

You’re the OP of this post. So why choose to spread this nonsense?

All you’re doing is painting a robotic falsehood over the real thing.

Just go out and meet women. Stop theorizing and spinning false horror stories.

All this misrepresentation does is murder men’s confidence and self-esteem… and get on women’s nerves.

 

[zazen]

32 minutes ago, Emerald said:

You’re the OP of this post. So why choose to spread this nonsense?

All you’re doing is painting a robotic falsehood over the real thing.

Just go out and meet women. Stop theorizing and spinning false horror stories.

All this misrepresentation does is murder men’s confidence and self-esteem… and get on women’s nerves.

 

No need for ad hominem, talk about the points rather than the person. Surprised that's all you got from my posts. 

Maybe its not false hood but based in reality? I have a great dating life, in fact I'v come across women who I found out later were cheating with me on their boyfriends and this lead to me to want to find out why. I actually took a break from dating to understand better cause and affect and why I was experiencing the things I was. I went from action to abstraction. I have friends who get plenty of women and a lot of others who struggle, I see it all around. It's not all cold statistics but anecdotal.

What murders men confidence and self esteem is when they go out and get shut down continuously. What boosts it is learning the nature of things, and realising they can do something about it.

If human nature is un appealing I understand, but without this mechanism for women to select for strength, men and civilisation wouldn't be where it is today. I see beauty in it, a design of god, and thats what I like to illuminate to any men who would feel bitter about it. Men may be the head of the household, but women are the neck that turn that head. It is for women that men became something, and society became something. The water (feminine) eventually shapes the rock formations (masculine) over time. 

Glad to have found this forum with people on this journey of actualisation. Love you all. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by zazen

[zazen]

43 minutes ago, flowboy said:

Okay for one: these surveys don't mean a lot, because they select for the type of person that would take a survey like that. Inherent problem with global surveys.

But let's assume it does.

You can see men are overreporting lack of sex compared to women. Their graph is related to women's graph, it's just a bit of an exaggeration of it. Women's reporting lack of sex also jumped up. Correspondingly, men's reported lack of sex jumped up. I don't think this shows anything related to women getting laid more. It's just that men complain about it more than women.

Between 2008 and 2018, more people were sexless. The difference in reporting has always been there, I think that's a bias related to sex. Women don't view lack of sex as as big of a problem as men, which is nothing new. It also makes sense that the relation is not linear. Men are just more inclined to complain about this, because sex is higher on their priority list typically.

What happened? Well, perhaps people got less shy about reporting their lack of sex. Perhaps the culture changed, and so there was less shame around it. People felt more entitled, and so were more inclined to see their sexless marriage as a problem? Keep in mind that these stats could very well be people in a relationship.

Bottom line: all this shows, is that this is what people who like to take surveys said in surveys.

I don't even know anybody who takes these surveys. Why would you? I've certainly got better things to do than fill out General Social Surveys. So this really selects for people who have nothing better to do, and like to waste time with stuff like that. Which is probably not most people, and could correlate heavily with lack of initiative to go out and meet people. This makes the data basically worthless.

Maybe social media is making people more lonely. Somehow. But even that is just a guess. Correlation does not imply causation.

Fantastic insights! I didn't see it that way. Living in a bit city (London) I come across many people of all walks of life on a daily basis, and get into discussions with a lot of men. I see it anecdotally not just on statistics, and the last thing men would be comfortable sharing is their lack of sex as it hits their pride a bit. Of course its not all doom and gloom and there are other reasons for lack of sex, being porn, entertainment, other means of pleasure ( just look at the society of Japan ). 

[flowboy]

3 minutes ago, zazen said:

I come across many people of all walks of life on a daily basis, and get into discussions with a lot of men.

I think meeting people in real life is a much more reliable way of researching this topic, than looking at statistics or the sources you've been citing from. If you're really interested in this, then nothing beats meeting people and seeing what's actually up.

[Emerald]

19 minutes ago, zazen said:

No need for ad hominem, talk about the points rather than the person. Surprised that's all you got from my posts. 

Maybe its not false hood but based in reality? I have a great dating life, in fact I'v come across women who I found out later were cheating with me on their boyfriends and this lead to me to want to find out why. I actually took a break from dating to understand better cause and affect and why I was experiencing the things I was. I went from action to abstraction. I have friends who get plenty of women and a lot of others who struggle, I see it all around. It's not all cold statistics but anecdotal.

What murders men confidence and self esteem is when they go out and get shut down continuously. What boosts it is learning the nature of things, and realising they can do something about it.

If human nature is un appealing I understand, but without this mechanism for women to select for strength, men and civilisation wouldn't be where it is today. I see beauty in it, a design of god, and thats what I like to illuminate to any men who would feel bitter about it. Men may be the head of the household, but women are the neck that turn that head. It is for women that men became something, and society became something. The water (feminine) eventually shapes the rock formations (masculine) over time. 

Glad to have found this forum with people on this journey of actualisation. Love you all. 

I didn't use an ad hominem attack. I never insulted you.

If I called YOU "nonsense" that would be ad hominem. But I didn't. I called your post nonsense... which is true. 

If you're with women who are cheating on their partners to be with you... you don't have a great dating life.

You're attracting low quality partners who have very little integrity. And you're attracting low quality partners largely because of your viewpoint. You're on a bad wavelength. You just don't realize it because you assume that it's just human nature.

You'd be wise to differentiate between human nature and low integrity shallow attraction. And you have not done that. And your distorted views on human nature will keep you solidified in these low integrity dynamics.

[zazen]

18 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I didn't use an ad hominem attack. I never insulted you.

If I called YOU "nonsense" that would be ad hominem. But I didn't. I called your post nonsense... which is true. 

If you're with women who are cheating on their partners to be with you... you don't have a great dating life.

You're attracting low quality partners who have very little integrity. And you're attracting low quality partners largely because of your viewpoint. You're on a bad wavelength. You just don't realize it because you assume that it's just human nature.

You'd be wise to differentiate between human nature and low integrity shallow attraction. And you have not done that. And your distorted views on human nature will keep you solidified in these low integrity dynamics.

Thats okay, you said why spread nonsense but didn't think I was. Also get the impression you think I'm a red piller who has negative view on women but thats maybe just me projecting. 

That girl is one example, even girls who are on the surface religious have acted in ways which would shock. I have also come across high integrity women also who of course didn't. It is human nature, but we have two human natures, one of a lower and one of a higher self which I commented on earlier ''we live between the two worlds, the world of the beast (our animal/darwinian nature) and that of the Bhudda, our higher nature to which we are all evolving towards. We are life incarnate (carnal - from flesh) in form and thats exactly the point, we are in flesh also. Man is animal, but animal is not all that he is '' that is what this is all about. We have the possibility in all of us for these behaviour we deem 'bad' which is just the animal in us acting out, its in me and all of us on this forum. But we have conscious and moral agency to not act on our animal instinct. The trigger is there, do we pull that trigger or allow the environment to pull that trigger is the question. Move from compulsion to consciousness, from instinct to intelligence. 

 

I see human nature what it is, and also see it for what it could be when lived from a higher plane. And they are both beautiful. I absolutely love women and love love. They say men created the world, but women created the very life that created that very world. In fact maybe man has felt inferior to women over the eons for she created the highest form, life itself. When a loving couple looks each other in the eyes, the higher self, the spirit behind the eye calls the spirit in the other eye, higher to itself, to a higher place. Woman is one of the greatest manifestations of beauty on this planet, her curves the greatest creation of god, her smile the greatest inspiration ( put in spirit ). Beauty of women physical and non physical invokes man to something higher. I don't think thats a distorted view

[Tudo]

40 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I didn't use an ad hominem attack. I never insulted you.

If I called YOU "nonsense" that would be ad hominem. But I didn't. I called your post nonsense... which is true. 

If you're with women who are cheating on their partners to be with you... you don't have a great dating life.

You're attracting low quality partners who have very little integrity. And you're attracting low quality partners largely because of your viewpoint. You're on a bad wavelength. You just don't realize it because you assume that it's just human nature.

You'd be wise to differentiate between human nature and low integrity shallow attraction. And you have not done that. And your distorted views on human nature will keep you solidified in these low integrity dynamics.

Yeah

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, zazen said:

Thats okay, you said why spread nonsense but didn't think I was. Also get the impression you think I'm a red piller who has negative view on women but thats maybe just me projecting. 

That girl is one example, even girls who are on the surface religious have acted in ways which would shock. I have also come across high integrity women also who of course didn't. It is human nature, but we have two human natures, one of a lower and one of a higher self which I commented on earlier ''we live between the two worlds, the world of the beast (our animal/darwinian nature) and that of the Bhudda, our higher nature to which we are all evolving towards. We are life incarnate (carnal - from flesh) in form and thats exactly the point, we are in flesh also. Man is animal, but animal is not all that he is '' that is what this is all about. We have the possibility in all of us for these behaviour we deem 'bad' which is just the animal in us acting out, its in me and all of us on this forum. But we have conscious and moral agency to not act on our animal instinct. The trigger is there, do we pull that trigger or allow the environment to pull that trigger is the question. Move from compulsion to consciousness, from instinct to intelligence. 

 

I see human nature what it is, and also see it for what it could be when lived from a higher plane. And they are both beautiful. I absolutely love women and love love. They say men created the world, but women created the very life that created that very world. In fact maybe man has felt inferior to women over the eons for she created the highest form, life itself. When a loving couple looks each other in the eyes, the higher self, the spirit behind the eye calls the spirit in the other eye, higher to itself, to a higher place. Woman is one of the greatest manifestations of beauty on this planet, her curves the greatest creation of god, her smile the greatest inspiration ( put in spirit ). Beauty of women physical and non physical invokes man to something higher. I don't think thats a distorted view

Too much pedestalization. Still a distortion.

Just two sides to the same coin of misrepresentation… one idealized and one denigrated.

It all leads to people projecting nonsense onto women and our sexuality.

And even if you’re not identified with being into Red Pill stuff, you’re still proliferating their worldview. And look around the internet a bit…, this worldview that you’re pushing as “human nature” just turns men into a bunch of basket cases who can’t even interact with women on a basic human level.

[zazen]

 

@Emerald

So we can't see the beauty of this existence? How should one look at the world, what makes us human? It seems not being able to see beauty in this creation is robotic just as much as the red pilled bro - science you said is robotic. 

Society has pedestalised sex, we are over saturated with it. We are over sexed and undersexed at the same time, and we all suffer from it. Men, in the way that they feel if it is valued to that height they must have it and when they don't they are in pain, and waste their lives away picking up.  Women, to the caricature of women that is portrayed and the unrealistic standard put forth, and so girls mental health is sky rocketed since the advent of social media. All because sex sells, sells to our lowest animal drive which exists in us. Women pedestalised sex in the name of freedom, men in the name of a free show for the lowest part of themselves to enjoy it seems.

Beauty and hotness differ. What is pedestalised is only hotness but women all have beauty and that is beyond the flesh. That beauty in women possess a complexity, a depth, a nuanced grace, that men can't put a finger on but feel. We can't put that wordless wonder into words. And so with man. The beauty of man is his devotion to a personal passion, a passion larger than himself and that includes her and this worlds well being. Hence why women love starving artists, musicians, dreamers and iconclasts. That sets them apart, just as a certain beauty in woman sets her apart from men. 

Beauty needs a witness, god wants a witness. We are that witness, we witness the beauty in each other, and let each other know I see you, I am here. Namaste.

Edited September 16, 2021 by zazen

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

@Emerald

So we can't see the beauty of this existence? How should one look at the world, what makes us human? It seems not being able to see beauty in this creation is robotic just as much as the red pilled bro - science you said is robotic. 

Society has pedestalised sex, we are over saturated with it. We are over sexed and undersexed at the same time, and we all suffer from it. Men, in the way that they feel if it is valued to that height they must have it and when they don't their in pain. Women, to the caricature of women that is portrayed and the unrealistic standard hence. All because sex sells, sells to our lowest animal drive. Women pedestalised sex in the name of freedom, men in the name of a free show to enjoy. 

Women of beauty (not hotness which is what is only shown) and which all women have within them. That beauty in women possess a complexity, a depth, a nuanced grace, that men can't put a finger on but feel. We can't put that wordless wonder into words. And so with man. The beauty of man is his devotion to a personal passion, a passion larger than himself and that includes her and this worlds well being. Hence why women love starving artists, musicians, dreamers and iconclasts. That sets them apart, just as a certain beauty in woman sets her apart from men. 

Beauty needs a witness, god wants a witness. We are that witness, who will witness his creation. We witness the beauty in each other, and let each other know I see you, I am here. Namaste.

Sorry, I’m not buying what you’re selling. You’re just as much in fantasy as you were in the original post.

Come back to the reality… not the robotic bro science hypergamy nonsense … not to hyper-romantic pedestalization nonsense .

Come back to the reality of being human. The mundanity is where it is.

[Raptorsin7]

@zazen I wonder how hypergamy relates to the growing numbers of 30' and 40's single woman who never found partners. I know in my family there a few attractive woman in their late 30's who can't find partners bevause they were too picky.

I guess 100 years ago all these woman would have had partners chosen by their families which creates it's own set of problems. 

I think there also been a degeneration in the quality of young men in society too, so there are probably even less suitable men available which compounds the problem 

[zazen]

6 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Sorry, I’m not buying what you’re selling. You’re just as much in fantasy as you were in the original post.

Come back to the reality… not the robotic bro science hypergamy nonsense … not to hyper-romantic pedestalization nonsense .

Come back to the reality of being human. The mundanity is where it is.

Seems you didn't enjoy the mundanity that is evolutionary biology, it can be cold. You mentioned those guys need to get out and socialise with women as human beings and feel a sense of love and nuance. What I talked about is exactly that. So what is it, stay hard and cold or  the other extreme where men discard understanding of human nature and get lost in their version of love which is fantasy, and end up getting hurt and not know why by women. Or seeing life what it is, and then that beauty exists in that also. 

The reality of being human is we have a heart and emotion. Animals just live, human beings create music art and poetry. Something higher in us is alive, it is also alive in animals rocks plants but ever more in us. 

[Windappreciator]

@zazen Listen here boy.

Don't bring animals into your nonsense. Animals have heart and emotions.

Otherwise we have a problem.

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Windappreciator