Can we talk about suffering?

[blessedlion1993]

Since this is a progressive and original community , i want to get your guys take on suffering. 

Every religion seems to have a take on suffering and its' purpose. I want to know what you guys think of it...

Is it neccesary?
 

I feel the old statement of "can't have pain without pleasure" is kinda bs, because there have been times in my life when im just happy and i would easily just keep it that way if i could. I don't get bored of it and "miss" misery 

[LastThursday]

23 minutes ago, blessedlion1993 said:

Is it neccesary?

No. Is it certain, yes. Sometimes it's not obvious that suffering is even happening though. Then you've got your physical suffering, and emotional suffering and mental suffering. Then there's the intensity of suffering. Then there's length of time, something can become suffering if it goes on long enough. Then there are causes of suffering: ignorance, world view, disease, genetics, poverty, race, sex, age, religion, and on and on. Of all the things to worry about, suffering is right up there. You can even suffer someone else's pain!

[Terell Kirby]

47 minutes ago, blessedlion1993 said:

I feel the old statement of "can't have pain without pleasure" is kinda bs, because there have been times in my life when im just happy and i would easily just keep it that way if i could. I don't get bored of it and "miss" misery 

Notice that this is your ego talking. It has preferences of what it likes and dislikes.

A lot of what spirituality entails is transcending the preferences of your ego. No one can simply lay it out for you on this forum on how to do that.

You’ll need to do a ton of research and reading, as well as a consistent spiritual practice to have at least a 1% chance at transcending your suffering. This work is not for the weak.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Terell Kirby

[blessedlion1993]

@LastThursdayTrue, it's a massive part of life and comes in many forms. I'd say it is a constant in some form. Do you have any philosophy on why we suffer so much? Is there a bigger picture or reason? Is it just pointless?

[SQAAD]

Suffering is necessary if you want to really appreciate the present moment. Yes after tons of suffering you don't need any more of it to get the benefits of gratitude and appreciation of your life.

I've found that people who haven't suffered deeply don't really enjoy life as much and they take everything for granted. They may even be wealthy but still their life is very hollow and empty of meaning.

How can you appreciate what wealth is if you have never been poor? Same goes for happiness and well-being. How can you appreciate those things without their opposites.

All spiritual gurus have suffered a lot in their lifes. They weren't comfortable and protected all their lifes. Jesus, Budda are good examples. Jesus especially.

Ramana Maharshi losts his parents i think and came face to face with the fear of death at an early age which led to his epic enlightment. He wasn't smoking weed and playing videogames lol.

Edited September 15, 2021 by SQAAD

[peanutspathtotruth]

This is such a deep, multifaceted question. There are many layers one could go into here, let's explore a few:

• Suffering feels like a feedback system for showing us how deeply we are entrenched in the belief of separation / in the forgetfulness of our absolute oneness / in the identification with form
• That every perspective God takes, aka every Self in the world of Form, is bound to suffer is a very human notion - we develop egos and suffer for it, so we think it's inherent to reality. I don't know, and probably nobody does, but why should evolution keep on suffering? I've researched the law of one (Ra material) a tiny bit, and this one idea struck me as interesting: that only in this current phase of evolution, we as Beings have an ego-self and suffer for it, precisely because God wants to give itself the choice between Love or Darkness - because all is equally beautiful, equally itself, equally viable to experience if God so chooses. From what Ra has said , after this very short period in evolution, we will transcend into higher beings, and we become more and more conscious and more and more purified. And thus, if this is only slightly true, it might mean that suffering will fade out the more transparent God's perspectives become to embodying Love. 
• To dive deep into suffering that is present is often an extremely insightful, albeit inherently unpleasant, experience to me. Just now I meditated for an hour, and for whatever reason something in me contracted and resisted heavily, creating a knot in my head and tensing up my head and face. The first part of it, I tried to relax, to let it go, to sort it out, to solve it. Only when I allowed myself to bathe in the pain and the suffering and allow it to be there, did my mind calm down. Pain didn't go away, but my consciousness deepened and I gained clarity. In this way, pain can be there, but suffering fades. 

[LastThursday]

5 hours ago, blessedlion1993 said:

Do you have any philosophy on why we suffer so much? Is there a bigger picture or reason? Is it just pointless?

That's such a hard question to answer. I'll give it a go.

Physically, we need to keep our bodies intact and functioning within specific margins - so the body will signal when we're out of alignment with its needs. So basically survival. Anything which pushes us out of our ideal functioning, will signal discomfort or pain. Or anything which might potentially do this will create fear or anxiety.

Emotionally. Well suffering is all about negative emotions, even pain is an emotion. fear definitely is. So the body communicates suffering through the emotions. But the mind and thinking also triggers emotions. Any form of thought could potentially trigger negative emotions. There are thoughts about danger to the body, but also more abstract ones like losing a loved one, or not having what other people have, or not getting what you want. I'd say most thoughts that create suffering are either to do with survival or with strong attachment to something. In a way, survival is about strong attachment to the body.

We also rely on other people for our survival, and threats of being ostracised (and left alone), or death of others (who help us survive), or being concerned for other people's welfare (because it affects us in return), all sit heavily and cause suffering. This is attachment to our tribe or society.

Attachment itself is really about maintaining a status quo or wanting things to be a certain way. Attachment itself isn't suffering, but reality itself doesn't care about our attachments. The body causes suffering because it needs to be kept intact and functioning optimally, but reality doesn't see our bodies, it just does its thing (entropy increases). Our bodies constantly have to fight against the chaos of being dis-integrated, dis-membered, disolved. It suffers because it wants to keep existing.

Other types of attachment, such as to objects, cause suffering because objects degrade, or get lost or stolen, and we have to somehow keep our inventory of objects intact. Again, reality doesn't care about our attachments. We have laws about theft, and insurance, and warranties, and property rights. All this concern about objects cause suffering.

And attachment to ideas and thoughts too. The single biggest suffering caused by ideas, is that there isn't a single idea that's true. Whatever ideas you have about living, or ways of being, or anything really, they're never a perfect match to reality.  Reality will always show you that your ideas are wrong in some way, and you have to fight to maintain your ideas in the face of contradiction. This is suffering. The map is not the territory, ideas are not reality.

The best way to counter suffering is to be less attached to everything: ideas, people, objects and yourself. And I haven't even talked about the ego!

Edited September 15, 2021 by LastThursday

[Endangered-EGO]

I just made a post about this.

You go through suffering so you understand that living in duality is not normal. It's an illusion, the mind controls everything by the threat of suffering and illusory feeling of bliss when you dance how you were conditioned to dance.

If you go through all of the dukka nanas up to equanimity, it's clear that this duality is utterly hopeless and there's nothing for you to even be 1% blissfull about. There's no happiness in the mind, there's just the threat of suffering, and that threat collapses once you realise that.

At least for a while.

Read my post or just read https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/5-dissolution-entrance-to-the-dark-night/

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

it seems that suffering is the tool to guide us on the right path. if we sit in a fire, suffering makes us get up. If we suffer from a dysfunctional life, suffering narrows the way to go deeper and find the truth. if we suffer from the oppression of others, suffering makes us fight. if you are terminally ill, suffering makes you want to end. in the end we are puppets that go in one direction or another according to suffering or pleasure.

[blessedlion1993]

@SQAAD Super insightful & wise, thanks for your take. I agree, but also feel that some people really don't need to suffer a lot to still be happy. Some rich people i know who haven't ever really had major life challenges are still pretty happy and grateful, and just don't have depression and shit. But i see you point, i know for a fact that if i hadn't had my certain traumas i wouldn't be nearly as happy or developed as i am now

@peanutspathtotruthInsightful, thanks. I agree regarding the pain, leaning into it is sometimes the only option. Also, i get these weird knots of energy in my head as well. 

Thanks every1 else for your input

 

[Flowerfaeiry]

12 hours ago, blessedlion1993 said:

Is it necessary?

I think so.

You have to become aware of your suffering in order to learn and grow from it. But many walk around in deep pain and don't really realize it because it's just their norm. 

[Johnny Galt]

Suffering is pointed to because we are ignorant to it while being immersed in it. 

And so to awaken, like an addict, we must see what is, our conditioning, and our suffering. 

Uproot and this opens a doorway

[VeganAwake]

@blessedlion1993

What is suffering at its core?

Break it all the way down.

See if you can pinpoint it.

 

[Consilience]

Posted this on my IG story earlier, quite relevant: 

Pain is not equivalent to suffering. Suffering can be present during emotional feelings of happiness and pleasure. 

 

Suffering is when the mind is pushing or pulling at perceptive experience, whether internal mental perceptions, or external physical perceptions. 

 

When the mind rejects whatever is present, that is suffering. 

When the mind is craving for an absent experience, that is suffering. 

When the mind is craving for more of a present experience, that is suffering. 

When the mind is holding onto a present experience, that is suffering. 

There are many examples and ways of framing this phenomena of suffering, but fundamentally it is about the mind being discontent with what is. The degree, subtly, and significance of this discontent is generally only appreciated once we take on the effort of investigating our personal suffering. 

 

There are absurdly deep dynamics at work fostering the mind’s discontent with experience. To prove this, we can set a timer for 60 minutes and sit in silence, stillness, and without stimulation. We can watch as the mind struggles for peace, sometimes to the point of panic. 

 

However, when the mind strategically and systematically practices being with what is without interference, in other words practices letting go, acceptance, being, this is the beginning of the cessation of suffering. This is the opening into true happiness.

[VeganAwake]

Is suffering in the mind?

Is it felt in the body?

Where does it go when happiness arises?

[Byun Sean]

suffering is resistance to what is.

 

We resist what is because we are selfish and must survive as finite beings in this physical dimension.

 

If we don't resist what is we cannot suffer.

 

[Eternity]

@peanutspathtotruth Resistance is a major reason in our imaginary world for suffering.  If we resist it, it appears to persist.  This is why, I know little about it, buddhism places emphasis on not resisting, Catholicism and other main religions place importance on suffering and accepting.  In Christianity, Christ taught to not resist attacks with counter attack because you only prolong your suffering; he also taught not to judge (he is not quoted as saying not to judge others, but judging at all) because judging makes us ultimately unhappy and comes back to haunt us.  This is a rule to live by and so religions which are also creations of God , teach us this path to inner peace.  Also, suffering, appears to be one of the best motivators there is to make us devote ourselves to spiritual growth, to grow out of our usual stupor and torpor to thirst for spiritual awakening.

[peanutspathtotruth]

32 minutes ago, Eternity said:

@peanutspathtotruth Resistance is a major reason in our imaginary world for suffering.  If we resist it, it appears to persist.  This is why, I know little about it, buddhism places emphasis on not resisting, Catholicism and other main religions place importance on suffering and accepting.  In Christianity, Christ taught to not resist attacks with counter attack because you only prolong your suffering; he also taught not to judge (he is not quoted as saying not to judge others, but judging at all) because judging makes us ultimately unhappy and comes back to haunt us.  This is a rule to live by and so religions which are also creations of God , teach us this path to inner peace.  Also, suffering, appears to be one of the best motivators there is to make us devote ourselves to spiritual growth, to grow out of our usual stupor and torpor to thirst for spiritual awakening.

Yes of course, but the mind is tricky and subtle. So there is this new idea not to resist, but you resist anyway (you don't control what your mind is doing!), what happens then? You now think you shouldn't resist - bam, new layer of resistance. This is the norm, these piles of vectorial resisting movements. Same with judgment. "But I shouldn't judge, why am I judging?" - another judgment.

Dealing with this can be tough, but essentially it's simple. You resist? Okay. You judge? Alrighty. Now what? Just allow it. At some point in the chain you have to stop resisting the resistance, stop judging the judging. And these religious rules tell you otherwise, that's why I find them problematic. Resistance is what your mind does, so let it. It's God's perfection. The moment you stop interfering and adding more layers, it all can relax, naturally, by itself. 

[Endangered-EGO]

16 hours ago, Flowerfaeiry said:

I think so.

You have to become aware of your suffering in order to learn and grow from it. But many walk around in deep pain and don't really realize it because it's just their norm. 

@Flowerfaeiry It's the ego's security shutdown. The ego has to, at one point go through every possible form of suffering an individual can experience.

It's not to grow itself, it's to bring it to TOTAL DESPAIR beyond the point of suicide and no-return. Then God's grace shows up if you're lucky.

It's futile and hopeless to do anything about the suffering that occurs. That would only bd leading to more conditioning and fighting.

The only thing suffering teaches you, are insights into how miserable life in duality is.

 

I fell into the trap of trying to fix my suffering because something feels wrong with me.

[VeganAwake]

13 hours ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

Yes of course, but the mind is tricky and subtle. So there is this new idea not to resist, but you resist anyway (you don't control what your mind is doing!), what happens then? You now think you shouldn't resist - bam, new layer of resistance. This is the norm, these piles of vectorial resisting movements. Same with judgment. "But I shouldn't judge, why am I judging?" - another judgment.

Dealing with this can be tough, but essentially it's simple. You resist? Okay. You judge? Alrighty. Now what? Just allow it. At some point in the chain you have to stop resisting the resistance, stop judging the judging. And these religious rules tell you otherwise, that's why I find them problematic. Resistance is what your mind does, so let it. It's God's perfection. The moment you stop interfering and adding more layers, it all can relax, naturally, by itself. 

?