Fear In Noticing "Reality"/Me As A Thought

[Matt23]

I've had a few experiences, one last night, where I felt lots of fear.  Like a freaky fear feeling.  

For example, last night, I smoked a little bit of weed and then eventually it was like my awareness of the things around me suddenly just "brightened".  I was thinking "What was in that weed?".  Then, in bed, I started to just increase my mindfulness of everything I experience; mostly visual (outer world and my thoughts).  

The freaky part happened, which is what happened before (though the previous time I was completely sober), is that when I start to become increasingly aware of my thoughts I start to realize that my thoughts about my body, my self, and about the reality that's not in my direct visual field, are just that; thoughts!  

This is where I get the fear.  It's like "Oh shit... This is all fucking unreal!"  I get quite a bit of fear here and feel like maybe I should stop.  

Though, this most recent time, instead of stopping, I tried to just focus on who is the one who is scared and tried to overcome it.  

Anyways, I suppose I'm looking to vent this and let it out.  Maybe see if anyone has any comments or suggestions or similar experiences. 

Also, I'm considering taking 5meo in the future, but am pretty apprehensive about it as my mental health hasn't been the best over the years.  On the other hand I can see how this can be an excuse and result in me never taking it.  I doubt I'll do it any time soon anyways since I'm pretty nervous to.  

Cheers

[Endangered-EGO]

@Matt23 Yes, If you continue, smoke too much, you'll get a panic attack, and a one pointedness of mind on that thing you're afraid of, it will be followed by DP/DR for a few months.

I've been through it and many other people too.

 

Don't do it though, you're not gonna have a good time. It's called the pit of the void and enlightenments evil twin for a reason.

[Matt23]

4 hours ago, Endangered-EGO said:

It's called the pit of the void and enlightenments evil twin for a reason.

I think I've already had an experience that maybe caused some DP/DR.  Though, it's damn hard to define these things so I really don't know.  

All I know is that I spoke with Shinzen Young about an experience I had where I experienced A) reality/my visual feild as being "paper-thin'', like everything was just unsubstantial (suuuper hard to explain it), and B) tons of fear at that moment, along with lots of fear (almost like the feeling like having a bad trip, though not visually) that lasted for months afterwards.    He though I had an initial awakening ("seeing the ox's tail) experience and said that it's common for people to have fear, but if the fear lasts for a long time after he considerd that DP/DR.  

Hard to say. 

[Endangered-EGO]

@Matt23 Yes that's it, a mild form of DP/DR. Well, DP/DR stays for a long time if you have constant anxiety. Fortunately I didn't have anxiety (except during too much weed panic attack), but had ego deaths nearly every day. Still feels like dying though haha.

Do you remember the first time it happened sober?

For me the first time was the most fucking intense terrifying thing I could have imagined. The other ones were way less intense.

Infinite time -->eternity-->full ego death --> everything is unreal --> no self, no other selves --> nothing exists outside of perception. I looked at my hand and it felt like viewing in from the perspective of an ant and me being a giant. Felt like a feverdream/bad trip.

 

That was like 6 years ago, but ego came back and suffering got pretty bad. Now I want that back.

 

What did Shinzen advise you to do? Did he do it on a streamed call on his website or in person? I would love to hear it if possible.

 

He was the only one that could make sense of what I went through. I initially thought I had ego death, caused by psychosis, and not a real "Awakening". Now I know the Ox attacked me lmao.

 

I am still terrified of changes in perception and weed, I was 16. Now I'm 23.

[mandyjw]

Probably a weird suggestion, but I find fantasy and stories to be helpful and healing with this sort of thing. Not necessarily that you go out and read a bunch of novels and watch a bunch of movies but contemplate them and revisit ones you've loved and why. Fear is a huge component of many stories, and the author creates it. They feel the fear, but they also don't because they are creating the fear, so it's a charge. It's the same for the reader or viewer of the story. You forget that the monster is on the screen, you forget that you wrote him in this epic drama for a purpose within the story, and yet no purpose, just creative entertainment. You are the author and the watcher, and all the characters, and none of it. You are so intimate with it, you are completely removed from it as a threat. 

You can basically hack your understanding of and experience of fear to realize that underneath it, behind it, there's something really really good. 

[The0Self]

This is actually the only fear that is ever experienced. It's a defense mechanism of the apparent I-program keeping itself alive. It's a story and only apparent, but when it senses its own lack of substance it generates fear in order to survive: keep things and itself seeming real and separate from each other, maintaining dualism/awareness.

Edited September 10, 2021 by The0Self

[Matt23]

2 hours ago, Endangered-EGO said:

Do you remember the first time it happened sober?

Ya.  I was looking out onto the water, I had been experiencing a lot of mental turmoil.  And then that paper-thinness came and I felt a fear I call the "black abyss'' which I remember thinking I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.  Not even Hitler.  

So, I dunno if it was even an awakening experience.  I can't even say to be honest.  MAybe it was just a perceptual shift of sorts.  I wouldn't say I had any insights into myself (or non-self) or anything like that.  It was mostly just that perceptual thing. 

Shinzen said that the three things I described (no self-center (even this I dunno if it is accurate), thinness of reality, and fear) are things he hears often from people who have awakening experiences.  I dunno.  

But then I asked Peter Ralston about it and I think he just said something like "I don't know what that is.  Maybe get some help and/or stop doing that."

I also asked Daniel Ingram about it and he offered a model which says that fear either comes from:

• Immediate danger.  Which I wasn't in.
• Psychological trauma:  which is quite possible. 
• Awakening:  which I don't know. 

I figure it was probably something between psychological trauma and awakening perhaps.  

• I think this cuz Shinzen also mentioned that some schools in Zen actually create extreme forms of suffering for the practitioners to just force them to abandon the ego.  And I'd felt similarly in that I'd been experiencing such psychological turmoil that I began to just "send it" and do whatever scared me most since I felt trapped in myself.  

2 hours ago, The0Self said:

when it senses its own lack of substance it generates fear in order to survive: keep things and itself seeming real and separate from each other, maintaining dualism/awareness.

Hmm.. rings of some truth for me and experiences I've had recently.  Like when making deicisions that I feel would make me a lot happier, yet my baseline and 'normal' reality is way below that level of happiness.  So if I went to that happiness, that would really shatter my sense of reality so perhaps I avoid it.  

Yada, yada, yada though  ... though thanks for the convos.   I appreciate them. 

Edited September 11, 2021 by Matt23

[Endangered-EGO]

@Matt23 The black abyss, would you call it your soul being ripped out of your Body?

I would bet money on it being awakening and/or DP/DR, which kind of is the same thing.

Also, awakening is a perceptual shift, you're doing the same stupid mistake I did.

Trying to make sense lf it afterwards with the materialist paradigm.

I also called this ego-death with a little bit of psychosis, but that's just a story.

 

I would stop weed if I were you or make sure you never smoke too much and get that Awakening properly integrated.

Also listen to jim newman, because I actually rebuilt a sense of self because I'm an idiot.

[Matt23]

On 9/10/2021 at 6:47 PM, Endangered-EGO said:

@Matt23 The black abyss, would you call it your soul being ripped out of your Body?

Mmm.. i mean no.  That's not my terminology.  But that's just me and how I feel the best way to describe it from me experience.  Could be the same experience though, or similar. 

I also don't know what you mean by that.  Like what are the emotions and sensations you feel when you say "the soul being ripped out of your body"?

For my i dont like or feel it had any soul element to it... like no soul entity thing or such... there was just lots of fear mixed with ...mmmm... something along the lines of like coldness...but an extreme form of coldness.  Maybe that's similar to the soul ripping you mentioned. 

It was also a long time ago and its hard to remember it exactly.  

Edited September 18, 2021 by Matt23

[Endangered-EGO]

@Matt23 No it just felt like dying, but dying while still being alive. So i wanted to make it dramatic.

[Surfingthewave]

On 10/09/2021 at 7:01 PM, Matt23 said:

This is where I get the fear.  It's like "Oh shit... This is all fucking unreal!"  I get quite a bit of fear here and feel like maybe I should stop.  

Though, this most recent time, instead of stopping, I tried to just focus on who is the one who is scared and tried to overcome it.  

 

You've got some good advice from experienced teachers. 

What happens when you stay with the fear? Have you tried Noting what it feels like, it's location in the body, expansion / contraction. To "purify" fear you have to spend a lot of time with it, go into it. Shinzen has some good exercises for this. 

Other thing you can try is the Do Nothing technique as this helps with dropping our attention. We can fear fear itself, and so this exercise can help drop the attention to it. 

You also mentioned psychological trauma, I'm wondering if your fear is linked with trauma in the body. You may need further specialist help this this. This may mean meditation isn't the best practice here and counselling or therapy would be more suitable. If you're practising meditation when you have trauma in the body it can get stuck and actually have the opposite effect (I had a similar experience). 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Surfingthewave

[Nahm]

On 9/10/2021 at 2:01 PM, Matt23 said:

I've had a few experiences, one last night, where I felt lots of fear.  Like a freaky fear feeling.  

This can be aligned, cleared up to the tune of liberation right now. You didn’t feel any fear. You’re labeling feeling fear & believing it. 

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For example, last night, I smoked a little bit of weed and then eventually it was like my awareness of the things around me suddenly just "brightened".  I was thinking "What was in that weed?".  Then, in bed, I started to just increase my mindfulness of everything I experience; mostly visual (outer world and my thoughts).  

The freaky part happened, which is what happened before (though the previous time I was completely sober), is that when I start to become increasingly aware of my thoughts I start to realize that my thoughts about my body, my self, and about the reality that's not in my direct visual field, are just that; thoughts!  

Notice the conflict: the realization all thoughts are… just thoughts.     But… the thought “fear” is held apart as unique, special, or as an exception. 

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This is where I get the fear. 

Right there… you and fear. That’s a thought. 

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It's like "Oh shit... This is all fucking unreal!"  I get quite a bit of fear here and feel like maybe I should stop.  

Only in believing that first thought “fear”, then there is the following thought… “This is all fucking unreal”. That thought feels off, because it is off. But, you are missing this guidance of feeling, because you are believing the thought, “fear”. You are compounding this with the indirect thought that you are a ‘separate self’ which ‘get’s the fear here’, and ‘maybe should stop’. When this occurs point to the ‘fear’, point to the ‘I who should stop’. When you realize you can’t, it helps realize clearly it’s because you’re thinking there are these things, but upon actually checking there is not. 

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Though, this most recent time, instead of stopping, I tried to just focus on who is the one who is scared and tried to overcome it.  

The prior two thoughts (I get the fear & this is all unreal) feel off but weren’t scrutinized or let go. So that thought narrative, being believed, continues… and it is believed there is this one who is scared. Then there is the plan to ‘overcome it’. ‘It’, is actually, thoughts about an it, and not, an it. If you are the one focusing, who or what is ‘the one who is scared’ which could be ‘overcome’? (It’s just thoughts). 

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Anyways, I suppose I'm looking to vent this and let it out.  Maybe see if anyone has any comments or suggestions or similar experiences. 

Also, I'm considering taking 5meo in the future, but am pretty apprehensive about it as my mental health hasn't been the best over the years.  On the other hand I can see how this can be an excuse and result in me never taking it.  I doubt I'll do it any time soon anyways since I'm pretty nervous to.  

Cheers

Likewise, there is no ‘one who’s mental health hasn’t been the best over the years’. That’s a thought which can only ever arise ‘in the now’. The thought is about a you & a past, which feels off, because there is not a you & a past. 

These thoughts feel off… don’t justify them with self referential stories (more mental activity). Just listen to the feeling and be humbled by it. 

On 9/10/2021 at 6:41 PM, Matt23 said:

I think I've already had an experience that maybe caused some DP/DR.  Though, it's damn hard to define these things so I really don't know.  

All I know is that I spoke with Shinzen Young about an experience I had where I experienced A) reality/my visual feild as being "paper-thin'', like everything was just unsubstantial (suuuper hard to explain it), and B) tons of fear at that moment, along with lots of fear (almost like the feeling like having a bad trip, though not visually) that lasted for months afterwards.    He though I had an initial awakening ("seeing the ox's tail) experience and said that it's common for people to have fear, but if the fear lasts for a long time after he considerd that DP/DR.  

Hard to say. 

Then you’re adding another thought to the thought story of ‘you’ in time, with the past, etc, ‘who has DP/DR’ now, and you’re looking for someone else to support & validate what you believe you’ve defined. But nothing was defined, nothing happened, nothing is wrong at all. 

On 9/10/2021 at 9:35 PM, Matt23 said:

Ya.  I was looking out onto the water, I had been experiencing a lot of mental turmoil.  And then that paper-thinness came and I felt a fear I call the "black abyss'' which I remember thinking I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.  Not even Hitler.  

Open up to the possibility you’ve got it perfectly backwards. There is absolutely no problem whatsoever with “the black abyss”. It’s the thought….”I felt fear” which is way, way off. 

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So, I dunno if it was even an awakening experience.  I can't even say to be honest.  MAybe it was just a perceptual shift of sorts.  I wouldn't say I had any insights into myself (or non-self) or anything like that.  It was mostly just that perceptual thing. 

Shinzen said that the three things I described (no self-center (even this I dunno if it is accurate), thinness of reality, and fear) are things he hears often from people who have awakening experiences.  I dunno.  

But then I asked Peter Ralston about it and I think he just said something like "I don't know what that is.  Maybe get some help and/or stop doing that."

I also asked Daniel Ingram about it and he offered a model which says that fear either comes from:

• Immediate danger.  Which I wasn't in.
• Psychological trauma:  which is quite possible. 
• Awakening:  which I don't know. 

I figure it was probably something between psychological trauma and awakening perhaps.  

• I think this cuz Shinzen also mentioned that some schools in Zen actually create extreme forms of suffering for the practitioners to just force them to abandon the ego.  And I'd felt similarly in that I'd been experiencing such psychological turmoil that I began to just "send it" and do whatever scared me most since I felt trapped in myself.  

Hmm.. rings of some truth for me and experiences I've had recently.  Like when making deicisions that I feel would make me a lot happier, yet my baseline and 'normal' reality is way below that level of happiness.  So if I went to that happiness, that would really shatter my sense of reality so perhaps I avoid it.  

Yada, yada, yada though  ... though thanks for the convos.   I appreciate them. 

I can only imagine how this sounds but for the sake of your well being… you’ve gotta stop listening to these people man. You’ve gotta stop listening to & believing anyone & everyone’s “fear theories”. Let other people believe whatever they want to. Allow them their space. That’s their business, as Byron Katie says. It’s like you stub your toe and want to realize the truth of this pain, so you go find confirmation of it & strategies on what to do from everyone. But the fear is a thought in the first place. Incredibly humbling that the mind can be so off, but, it is. When those thoughts are let go (attention brought back to feeling breathing from the stomach), then the mind has the opportunity & possibility of realizing what it ‘itself’ is made of. This does not and can not occur while the mind is focusing on content which has not truth whatsoever. (Fear, me which has it, & unreal). 

[Matt23]

On 9/18/2021 at 4:34 AM, Nahm said:

Right there… you and fear. That’s a thought.

Look, I don't really see it as a thought since it starts as a feeling.  All I feel is a feeling of fear, and to describe this feeling to others or myself, I have to say "fear".  I don't understand or see what the thought is since all it is is feeling.  

I think I'm resenting you a bit right now cuz I feel you're pushing it with the boundaries or something.  

The best understanding or conceptualization I have of what you're saying is "No matter what feeling you're feeling, if you don't label it (fear in this case) it will no longer be there" (I don't think you're really saying this in the way I'm meaning though).  To which my retort and not understanding is "How is not or avoiding labeling a feeling with a word going to have the feeling go away?"  Obviously it's not what I think you mean, though maybe it is.  This is where my vision and understanding lies at the moment. 

In terms of these experiences, I don't try to cling to them too much and just let them go more.  Without trying to go too much into making meaning from them.  Like I don't currently think or feel towards them a great deal of significance, if this is what you're trying to get me to drop.  I mean, ya, if that's the case.  Fair enough.  I'm seeing more how those stories and meaning makings are just thoughts and that, probably, any sense that I'll arrive at some answer or explanation to past experiences isn't the way I think I want to live (i.e., living in the past, etc...).  Though, I'm also not saying integrating experiences isn't wise or worthwhile/valuable. 

Are you saying I'm first and foremost thinking "fear", then believing that thought, then the result is the feeling of fear?  

No comprende.

On 9/18/2021 at 4:34 AM, Nahm said:

You didn’t feel any fear. You’re labeling feeling fear & believing it. 

... You see how I'm seeing a contradiction right?   Can you elaborate or explain?  This goes back to my confusion above.  You say I didn't feel any fear, yet simultaneously that I was feeling fear but labeling the feeling as fear and believing it?  

So if, in the future, I felt some fear, but didn't label it as "fear", are you saying that fear would disappear or I wouldn't be perturbed by it?

On 9/18/2021 at 4:34 AM, Nahm said:

But the fear is a thought in the first place.

This is what I'm confused by.  Since fear to me is a feeling, not a thought.  Though, I would say thoughts create fear in the body (like thoughts of bad things happening in the future, about running out of money, of being left by family, by being sick or homeless, etc...).    

Is this what you mean by "fear is a thought"?  That thoughts create fear?  I would agree. 

On 9/18/2021 at 4:34 AM, Nahm said:

you are missing this guidance of feeling, because you are believing the thought, “fear”

But fear is a feeling... Same as above.  ...confused.

I'll look it over again and see if clarity arrives. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Matt23

[Nahm]

@Matt23

Yes I am literally saying fear is thought based, not feeling. I’m not saying ‘and you have to or should get / understand / realize this right now!’.  But I am saying you can, and that it is true. 

Start with the simplest most fundamental aspect… anytime there is this experience, check and see if there is a corresponding thought about yourself as separate. What I found most helpful is using the backside of the dreamboard and writing the thought out. It is much easier to see the implied duality (myself and some thing - thus I am a separate thing too) at play in thoughts when it is ‘out of your head’ and instead, in front of you to inspect. The revelation is most worthwhile imo. 

Try to keep in mind the effort if you will here is to help. If it’s not helpful, there’s no need or requirement or anything of course to consider or entertain what’s being said whatsoever. 

[Leo Gura]

Ego naturally fears Truth because the ego is a lie.

Of course it's unreal. You're dreaming.

[WelcometoReality]

On 2021-09-10 at 8:01 PM, Matt23 said:

Though, this most recent time, instead of stopping, I tried to just focus on who is the one who is scared and tried to overcome it.  

What happens if you let the fear be as it is and continue "being aware of thoughts" despite the fear?

[Matt23]

23 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

What happens if you let the fear be as it is and continue "being aware of thoughts" despite the fear?

I'll give it a go and see.

My first objection (without having tried it first) is that when I feel fear I'm not aware of any thoughts in my head.  Like there's the fear in the body, then like me being aware of it, and not much going on in thought-land. 

But I'll give it a go.  

Cheers.

On 9/20/2021 at 4:47 AM, Nahm said:

Start with the simplest most fundamental aspect… anytime there is this experience, check and see if there is a corresponding thought about yourself as separate

Would you say to do this for any fear?  Cuz I don't get the experience and related fear mentioned in the first post commonly... just those two experiences.  

Edited September 22, 2021 by Matt23

[Nahm]

 

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when I feel fear I'm not aware of any thoughts in my head.  Like there's the fear in the body, then like me being aware of it, and not much going on in thought-land. 

   Ok. 

On 9/10/2021 at 2:01 PM, Matt23 said:

This is where I get the fear.  It's like "Oh shit... This is all fucking unreal!"  I get quite a bit of fear here and feel like maybe I should stop.  

‘This is all fucking unreal!’ doesn’t resonate in the way you hold it / mean it.  Don’t be quick to suppress feeling with the label ‘fear’, as if you know what it is. This isn’t a quickdraw shootout situation. Be open minded & humble, relax, breathe consciously from the stomach and see what it is. Don’t write it off. No name calling. No judging. At the very least we could say it might be guidance telling you what is real. Telling you about that thought.

Relaxing the body and breathing from the stomach consciously, as in putting attention there instead of on the discordant thought makes all the difference. Then the mind relaxes. Holsters, if you will. 

On 9/10/2021 at 2:01 PM, Matt23 said:

Though, this most recent time, instead of stopping, I tried to just focus on who is the one who is scared and tried to overcome it.  

‘The one who is scared’ is the other thought which does not resonate. That too is a label. An assumption, based on having shot first already. A movement in thought from ‘there is fear’, to ‘there is one who is scared’. Both just discordant thoughts.  

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Anyways, I suppose I'm looking to vent this and let it out.  Maybe see if anyone has any comments or suggestions or similar experiences. 

It’s hard to hear, but stop venting, for you, for your well being. It keeps the cycle going. It’s the perpetuating of a story & a character mindset that you no longer desire to tell & play. Expedite by the light of awareness. Don’t shoot the messenger. ??

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Also, I'm considering taking 5meo in the future, but am pretty apprehensive about it as my mental health hasn't been the best over the years. 

Let that story go, stop telling it, and you will no longer experience that apprehension. That also is a labeling over feeling, guidance, telling you about that thought about yourself.  It seems like that’s true and doesn’t feel good because it’s true. But it doesn’t feel good because it isn’t true. The more you put feeling first the better your mental health is. Idc what Doc Holiday says, there’s a lot of truth in that. 

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On the other hand I can see how this can be an excuse and result in me never taking it.  I doubt I'll do it any time soon anyways since I'm pretty nervous to.  

Address the nervousness directly. Completely eradicate it by reaching for a better thought whenever you feel discord. Don’t go to the bigger story of you and fear, notice the discordant thoughts. Go to the stomach breathing and relaxing swiftly, instantly. Practice that anywhere, anytime, so it becomes second nature. Put the attention on feeling breathing in the stomach, and thus attention is not on the thought. Then there can be clarity around that thought, and how it feels. Breathe in the clarity, breathe out the labels. Slow it all down. 

1 hour ago, Matt23 said:

Would you say to do this for any fear?  Cuz I don't get the experience and related fear mentioned in the first post commonly... just those two experiences.  

There isn’t a ‘variety of fears out there’, there’s just the one label, “fear”, being utilized. If you will. 

[WelcometoReality]

On 2021-09-22 at 5:59 AM, Matt23 said:

I'll give it a go and see.

My first objection (without having tried it first) is that when I feel fear I'm not aware of any thoughts in my head.  Like there's the fear in the body, then like me being aware of it, and not much going on in thought-land. 

But I'll give it a go.  

Cheers.

Yes, give it a go and see.  The feeling "fear" is no problem without the thoughts about it.

[Matt23]

 

On 9/21/2021 at 10:01 PM, Nahm said:

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when I feel fear I'm not aware of any thoughts in my head.  Like there's the fear in the body, then like me being aware of it, and not much going on in thought-land. 

   Ok. 

...THAT I'M AWARE OF!  JESUS EFFING CHRIST. 

23 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Yes, give it a go and see.  The feeling "fear" is no problem without the thoughts about it.

Look, you guys just think it's so fucking easy to just not "think" fear and then it's fine!  You don't understand.  you're not appreciating how fucked this is.  Like, it's not like I'm actually consciously experiencing me feeling a feeling of fear and then being like "Oh!  I'll just label that fear now, so now I'll feel bad!"  It's not that fucking easy. 

It's like you aren't fucking relating to my experience at all.  "Just don't label the fear 'fear' and it will magically go away."  Get fucked.  It's like you just ignore this whole thing.  

I'm just fucking pissed that you guys think it's so fucking easy when you deal with fear so big and I'm just fucking tired of this.  This advice that makes no sense to me at all and it's like you're not relating to my experience at all.  

Edited September 29, 2021 by Matt23