Free will and responsibility - paradox

[Nahm]

Responsibility for your life is a thought. There is no ‘your life’ in perception. A ‘your life’ is contingent on you being an object moving through linear time, which is also thought and never in perception. 

Response ability is a slight change of perspective, with the focus shifting away from an abstract ‘big picture’ of ‘my life’, and is the mind returning to responding in alignment, now. And it is only ever, now. 

This is most key in regard to anxiety and or depression, which are about a past and or a future, which isn’t ever actually experiences. This recognition is most impactful for the habit of ‘ballooning’ / ‘spider webbing’, or, taking how one feels just in this moment, and mistakenly extrapolating that as if it were indicative of ‘my whole life’. When the wandering mind wanders back to here & now, presence is, alignment is, happiness is. 

[Someone here]

@Gabith

 

In daily life, we have infinite possibilities to take any route any time. But we aren't actually going anywhere as it is always the formless here and now no matter which direction we take, so the term 'free will' collapses on itself. Nor our true Self ever does or becomes anything permanently or even intermittently().

It's like you can go any place in a boundless ocean, but all you are surrounded with all the time is water.

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

You cannot have free will without contrast of no free will. Same with responsibility. You are responsible for everything that happens in your life, but that does not mean you are to blame. “Response-ability” that’s what it means to be responsible. Free will and no free will are one. Notice your direct experience and you will find both free will and no free will, both the involuntary and the voluntary. All of this is concepts that we get lost in. 

Free will is a total horseshit . If you pay attention to your experience you will notice that. I like this experiment.. Try to stop your thoughts and movements for just few seconds.. And notice how your body will carry on thinking and moving on its own. It can be a very scary experience. You have zero control over your body. I had a hard time with this realization few months ago. I thought Im losing my mind. 
.

 

[r0ckyreed]

31 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Free will is a total horseshit . If you pay attention to your experience you will notice that. I like this experiment.. Try to stop your thoughts and movements for just few seconds.. And notice how your body will carry on thinking and moving on its own. It can be a very scary experience. You have zero control over your body. I had a hard time with this realization few months ago. I thought Im losing my mind. 
.

 

Well I think there is a confusion between discipline and free will. Of course a person who has never meditated cannot enter no-mind through their will. That skill needs to be developed over time. What you are saying is like asking a person who has never sat still for an hour to do that. Or it’s like asking a person to lift 120lbs when they never lifted weights. It most likely cannot be done unless you will yourself to do it.
 

It’s like a game of chess, there are “rules” that you invented that prevent certain choices from being made. Yet, you can choose which pieces to move. There are infinite possibilities in a game of chess. 
 

Consider this example, if someone insults you, you can choose whether to let that affect you or not. At the highest Levels of consciousness, you realize ultimate free will. A monk has more will over the mind than an average person. Free will doesn’t mean I can do whatever I want. Notice that free will and no free will go together. If you want to get strong, you have to choose to lift weights and go to gym, but you don’t have any free will of actual muscle growth as that happens at unconscious level. Unconscious and conscious levels also collapse and so does free will and no free will. It isn’t one or the other. It isn’t nature or nurture, it is both.

So you could say that we have no choice to have free will because our whole notions of choice come from things that we don’t choose. For instance, you can breathe but on the other hand breathing happens to you. You move your hand, but your ego would say that it does not choose to fire neurons, but without neuronal firing, you wouldn’t have an ego. So free will and no free will go together in that same way.

I understand the perspective you have that you have no control over body because the ego does not have control over anything. If you say free will is an illusion in terms of ego, then I would agree, but that does not assume that determinism is true or that free will in terms of the absolute is false.

Determinism is highly mechanistic and it assumes all matter is dumb and reacting to stimuli. But what if everything in nature and all your cells “make choices” in an intelligent way. Think about that.

This is what it means to get lost in concept. In your direct experience, you can realize that determinism is false and that free will is true, but that the ego is not the one who has free will. That’s the whole issue is that this whole free will vs. determinism debate is based on the illusion of separation. 
 

It’s a complicated issue like nature vs. nurture. The thing is that the issue is resolved when we realize that all coins have two sides: God and ego, free will and no freewill, self and other, voluntary and involuntary, happiness and depression, etc.

It is kinda strange loop about the relationship between free will and no freewill. On the one hand, you have no control over your body and mind, but on the other hand, your ego and ideas of who you want to be can change the physics structure of your body.

Consider a person who chooses to run 5 miles a day vs. the choice to stay home and eat ice cream. You make a choice no matter what you do. You can even choose to think you are not responsible. And the essence of your choice, the chooser of the choice is empty at the core. It is an amazing realization to realize that when I move my hands, it is not the “me” ego that moves the hands or runs 5 miles, it is the Intelligence of the Universe that makes the choice to move the hands. See it from that perspective of the Universe and you will have your free will and responsibility paradox resolved.

Edited September 9, 2021 by r0ckyreed

[Gesundheit2]

26 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Free will is a total horseshit . If you pay attention to your experience you will notice that.

Nice delusion.

[r0ckyreed]

To sum it up: ego doesn’t have free will. God does. Love is free will. The end.

[Mason Riggle]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Free will is a total horseshit . If you pay attention to your experience you will notice that. 
.

 

Yep. It's soooooo simple. 

[Mason Riggle]

@Someone here I like the term 'Intelligent Will'

Whether One considers Oneself 'ego' or 'Godhead', or whatever, One does what One WILL Intelligently. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, r0ckyreed said:

To sum it up: ego doesn’t have free will. God does. Love is free will. The end.

Of course "the ego" has no free will because "the ego" itself is an illusion. 

God?!  Not sure what you are talking about

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Nice delusion.

Thank you 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Someone here

[Someone here]

56 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Someone here I like the term 'Intelligent Will'

Whether One considers Oneself 'ego' or 'Godhead', or whatever, One does what One WILL Intelligently. 

You can call it "Dumb Will " if you like. It doesn't matter. 

 

[Gesundheit2]

@Someone here

[Scholar]

21 hours ago, Someone here said:

 Given that free will and choice are an illusion.

Hahahaha.

So, free will is an illusion. And? That literally means it is real, because that's what reality is.

 

You have to understand that illusion and reality are synonyms. The mistake most spiritual teachers make is that they believe reality must be logical. They deconstruct Free Will and then they say "Oh, Free will was only an Illusion!"

Yes, it is only illusion, like all of existence is. So what? Just because you made it cease doesn't mean it didn't exist.

 

And on a deeper level, Free Will is the Groundless Ground. It is fundamental. Free Will is Creativity.

 

Stop assuming reality makes sense or that it is some sort of logical simulation. it has nothing to do with that. You are literally trying to make reality logical, and the result will be suffering.

 

If you think Free Will cannot exist because it would be impossible, then you clearly haven't recognized that to Reality, creating Impossibility is effortless.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Scholar

[Mu_]

23 hours ago, Someone here said:

 I have a simple question today.. Given that free will and choice are an illusion. Which is basically undeniable within the recent discoveries within neuroscience and how the brain works. And evident by how random and chaotic our thoughts and actions are. How to reconcile that with the principles of taking 100 % responsibility for our life? 

How can you believe that you are 100% responsible for the direction of your life whilst believing that you have no free will? 

Notice how this is all in your experience and not nessecisarly something that is actual.  You believed something called free will, which you now believe has been disproven by something called science.  And now your asking about something called "100% responsibility".  Why not "99% responsibility", would you know the difference if it were even something real to begin with?  Would you know what 10% responsibility even feels like, or 20%, or 30%?  See how imaginary this is.

If you get what I'm saying, you'll laugh your ass off.

 

 

[Mason Riggle]

16 hours ago, Scholar said:

If you think Free Will cannot exist because it would be impossible, then you clearly haven't recognized that to Reality, creating Impossibility is effortless.

This makes no sense.  If reality can 'create impossibility' then it's not 'impossibility'... if it's possible for reality to do, then by definition, it's not 'impossible'.  

'Free will' doesn't make sense logically, experientially, or linguistically. 

 

16 hours ago, Scholar said:

Stop assuming reality makes sense or that it is some sort of logical simulation. it has nothing to do with that. You are literally trying to make reality logical, and the result will be suffering.

My logical notions about [the lack of] Free Will perfectly align with my experience of Reality (I don't need to assume anything. I can literally notice what my experience is like by simply paying attention to it).  The root of suffering is attachment (essentially, attachment to the notion that 'what is' should be [could be] different than how it is).  Notions of 'free will' are actually the cause of much suffering.  Hatred, judgement, jealousy, fear, etc, all arise from this notion that people are 'responsible' for [the ultimate cause of] how they occur in the Universe.  Absent notions of 'free will', these things cease to make sense. (you don't hate, or judge, a Volcano for being a Volcano, for example, because you understand perfectly well that a Volcano is not the cause of itself [it couldn't be any other way than how it is]). 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Mason Riggle]

18 hours ago, Someone here said:

You can call it "Dumb Will " if you like. It doesn't matter. 

 

Of course we can call it whatever.   When I say 'Intelligent Will', it should be obvious that 'Intelligence' is a relative notion.  Humans have brains which process information, use reasoning, etc, and we refer to this type of process as 'intelligent'.. the words we use DO matter, from the perspective of humans conveying meaning to each other.   Humans are intelligent in ways that rocks are not.. both behave how they will.  

[r0ckyreed]

After contemplating free will and responsibility, this is what I came up with.  

On 9/9/2021 at 11:34 AM, Someone here said:

Free will is a total horseshit .

Yes, free will is an illusion and so is your ego.  If free will is horseshit, then so is your life.  Free will is based on the illusion of control, with the illusion of self as the controller of your hands and bodily functions.  We don't say that we are the controller of the earth rotation or the entire universe, only our bodily functions, which is based on the illusion of separation.

With this stated, responsibility is also an illusion.  But you see, reality is illusion.  To survive in this world, we have to have the concept of ego, free will, morality, politics, culture, race, gender and responsibility.  Even though these are all horseshit and illusions, there can be no awakening without illusion.  There can be no reality without illusion.  Free will exists, the self exists, and so does responsibility, but the nature in which they exist is illusory.

Take responsibility or don't for your life.  Choices will happen whether you believe in free will or not.  It is all about your perception.

[Incognito]

On 9/9/2021 at 8:19 PM, r0ckyreed said:

To sum it up: ego doesn’t have free will. God does. Love is free will. The end.

I second that.

[Scholar]

On 10.9.2021 at 2:10 PM, Mason Riggle said:

This makes no sense.  If reality can 'create impossibility' then it's not 'impossibility'... if it's possible for reality to do, then by definition, it's not 'impossible'.  

'Free will' doesn't make sense logically, experientially, or linguistically. 

Nothing makes sense experientially, other than the experience of making sense. You are operating on a very surface level here, deluding yourself with your own thoughts. The impossibility word refers to something specific, if you had insight into it you would know why I call it that. Of course it doesn't make sense, that's the point.

 

On 10.9.2021 at 2:10 PM, Mason Riggle said:

My logical notions about [the lack of] Free Will perfectly align with my experience of Reality (I don't need to assume anything. I can literally notice what my experience is like by simply paying attention to it).  The root of suffering is attachment (essentially, attachment to the notion that 'what is' should be [could be] different than how it is).  Notions of 'free will' are actually the cause of much suffering.  Hatred, judgement, jealousy, fear, etc, all arise from this notion that people are 'responsible' for [the ultimate cause of] how they occur in the Universe.  Absent notions of 'free will', these things cease to make sense. (you don't hate, or judge, a Volcano for being a Volcano, for example, because you understand perfectly well that a Volcano is not the cause of itself [it couldn't be any other way than how it is]). 

You have not decuónstructed the very lense you choose to view this from, which is why you have trouble grasping what I am trying to convey. What you are saying is a story, a story of a perceiver who pays attention and gains deeper insight into reality. See, you pretend as if you have discovered someting of greater depth, when in fact the appearances just took on a new form of being. Deconstruct this lense, you are trapped in concepts.

[Someone here]

10 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

After contemplating free will and responsibility, this is what I came up with.  

Yes, free will is an illusion and so is your ego.  If free will is horseshit, then so is your life.  Free will is based on the illusion of control, with the illusion of self as the controller of your hands and bodily functions.  We don't say that we are the controller of the earth rotation or the entire universe, only our bodily functions, which is based on the illusion of separation.

With this stated, responsibility is also an illusion.  But you see, reality is illusion.  To survive in this world, we have to have the concept of ego, free will, morality, politics, culture, race, gender and responsibility.  Even though these are all horseshit and illusions, there can be no awakening without illusion.  There can be no reality without illusion.  Free will exists, the self exists, and so does responsibility, but the nature in which they exist is illusory.

Take responsibility or don't for your life.  Choices will happen whether you believe in free will or not.  It is all about your perception.

I agree with this ?

 

@Mu_ lol I'm little obsessed with free will. Pardon me