Curt’s resistance to Truth: TOE podcast

[Terell Kirby]

@Leo Gura That's fair. And yes, his straw-manning of the infinite nature of consciousness was quite cringe-worthy. But this stuff is complicated, and takes time to fully realize. Both of you gents did a wonderful job! Looking forward to pt2.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Terell Kirby

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I didn't feel he was triggered. His mind was just trying to be rigorous and so he played a lot of devil's advocate. Which is proper.

If anything I would say he didn't challenge me enough because he was trying to be polite.

But his inability to understand that nothing can exist outside infinity was pretty stubborn. Not much I can do about that. He sort of assumes that infinity is merely a mathematical notion and he can't stop imagining beyond infinity while not realizing all that is within Infinity. He also assumes Infinity can be reached with logic, which it can't. No amount of logic can get you there.

I think he basically was thinking along the lines of "just because you didn't perceive any more than what you did, how do you know there isn't anything more?" Like how a blind person could know everything except color.

The infinite nature of total void nothingness is indisputable since any limitation or boundary is no longer nothingness.

If there is only nothing and the apparition of something what else could there be but the unity of those two? It's both nothingness and literal everythingness. How could anything be outside that?

When he asked you to use the term all-encompassing I think he understood the idea at that point, but the word infinity was tripping him up.

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I didn't feel he was triggered. His mind was just trying to be rigorous and so he played a lot of devil's advocate. Which is proper.

If anything I would say he didn't challenge me enough because he was trying to be polite.

But his inability to understand that nothing can exist outside infinity was pretty stubborn. Not much I can do about that. He sort of assumes that infinity is merely a mathematical notion and he can't stop imagining beyond infinity while not realizing all that is within Infinity. He also assumes Infinity can be reached with logic, which it can't. No amount of logic can get you there.

The fundamental issue he has is that he is trying to come up to a notion of reality through conceptualization. So, you did engage with him conceptually, but it will actually make it impossible for him to ever reach reality.

It's like he is trying to come up with a concept of Redness without having ever experienced Redness. It simply makes no sense, it will be an empty construct. He is so lost in the conceptual that it will be difficult for him to disengage and simply look as Isness as is.

 

He has to construct his concepts as a result of direct experience/Isness. He has to look at the color red, and then he can create concepts that fit Redness. There is no other way, and most importantly, he needs to clearly recognize that the Isness of Redness and the Isness of Concept is seperate. I think your early meditation videos made this clear.

 

 

It is very interesting because I for long couldn't quite grasp what you meant by the fact that it makes no sense to doubt the Absolute. Today, it is unquestionable to me, and I can clearly see what doubt is. I can clearly see the conceptual for what it is, and as long as I did not recognize this I was trapped within it.

It is like the mind is trapped within interpretation, and it confuses interpretation to be fundamental to reality. But actually, it is the other way around. And once you simply look at reality, you recognize that A) it is without a doubt reality, B) it is without a doubt absolute and C) doubt itself is something that cannot touch reality. All of these things are seen, they do not need to be interpreted.

 

You tried to guide him a bit with the hand example, but he was still trapped in the conceptual and interpretation. Like I said, it is futile to go about it this way. He has to undo that which is trapping him within the conceptual, within one particular aspect of reality which he actually confuses to be all, or fundamental, to existence.

 

 

That's the whole game. Existence is right infront of you, all you have to do is open your eyes to it. The nature of existence is necessarily in everything that exists. That is so obvious and so simple, yet a mind that is trapped in the conceptual cannot grasp this.

[OctagonOctopus]

@Leo Gura

I was launging a bit when he was suggesting changing "Infinity" to "all encompassing" its infinity of course it's all encompassing! 

It was a great podcast, nice to see you talk with another human asking you questions. Curt is a good interviewer, he really seemed to want to get to the truth of the way you see things. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

The fundamental issue he has is that he is trying to come up to a notion of reality through conceptualization. So, you did engage with him conceptually, but it will actually make it impossible for him to ever reach reality.

Of course

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It's like he is trying to come up with a concept of Redness without having ever experienced Redness. It simply makes no sense, it will be an empty construct. He is so lost in the conceptual that it will be difficult for him to disengage and simply look as Isness as is.

Of course, but what else can be done with a conceptual guy?

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That's the whole game. Existence is right infront of you, all you have to do is open your eyes to it. The nature of existence is necessarily in everything that exists. That is so obvious and so simple, yet a mind that is trapped in the conceptual cannot grasp this.

Of course. We're playing games here. If he wasn't playing games he'd be awake and would not need to interview people about TOEs.

His entire YouTuber career requires that he not be awake. So it's like talking to a wall

[Flyboy]

On 9/7/2021 at 6:37 PM, Leo Gura said:

His entire YouTuber career requires that he not be awake. So it's like talking to a wall

Bold statement coming from someone also not awake  I've said it before and I'll say it again: you're missing something utterly foundational, and you are so in love with your model of reality that you seem totally blind to it now (and to even being told you are blind).

Just take your discussion of cessation, for example.  Super clear you have no idea what it really is or why it's even important (and also that you never actually read MCTB).  A cessation is NOT enlightenment, nor does anyone who understands a damn thing about enlightenment think that it is.  It's ironic that you're always harping on other people to "do the work" when the reality is that is YOUR shadow, Leo.  You only see God THROUGH Leo, and as such the shadow of self is on every facet of it.  You will never ever be enlightened until you shed the self, in all of its magnificent nuances.  And no psychedelic can do that for you.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Flyboy said:

Super clear you have no idea what it really is or why it's even important (and

I have read it. I just don't agree with it.

I don't consider Ingram God-realized.

Cessation is imaginary. You are imagining it right now. You imagine the book too, and the guy who wrote it.

Be careful who you assume has realized God. I wouldn't trust any Buddhist.

[Thought Art]

I think the interview was good. I really enjoyed seeing Leo speaking to someone about his ideas. I have more questions after having watched it. I am more skeptical than ever. Which is a good thing. 

Good interview so far anyway. Still haven't finished it. You two seem to get along well. It reminds me of myself speaking to my skeptical friends ahaha

It's interesting the limitations of language and you two have different operating systems and reference experiences. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Thought Art

[Flyboy]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I have read it. I just don't agree with it.

I don't consider Ingram God-realized.

Cessation is imaginary. You are imagining it right now. You imagine the book too, and the guy who wrote it.

Be careful who you assume has realized God. I wouldn't trust any Buddhist.

This is such a cop-out answer!  You can't use "imagination" as a blanket excuse to ignore any aspect of realization that you don't like.  You're so wrapped up in imagination in an absolute sense that you misapply it to experience happening NOW.  You can't use the concept of imagination to invalidate direct experience.  That is just as stupid as a scientist using a concept to invalidate consciousness.

Don't you see that you have created a circular defense concept that gives you absolute authority, creates a hugely egotistical ground for you to stand on (God realization), and most importantly is NOT something you are experiencing in the present moment?  This is the definition of delusion.

There is no ground, not even God or consciousness.  The way you are thinking about these things is still ultimately conceptual (and it MUST be so, since they are not happening NOW for you), and the only thing that WANTS there to be a ground is your spiritual ego, which is definitely alive and well.

[Endangered-EGO]

@Leo Gura Not a single known buddhist or vipassana teacher has achieved God realisation?

Who of the modern teachers do you assume has realised God?

Peter ralston, adyashanti, shinzen young, shunyamurti, Jim Newman, sadhguru? 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Flyboy said:

This is such a cop-out answer!  You can't use "imagination" as a blanket excuse to ignore any aspect of realization that you don't like.  You're so wrapped up in imagination in an absolute sense that you misapply it to experience happening NOW.  You can't use the concept of imagination to invalidate direct experience.  That is just as stupid as a scientist using a concept to invalidate consciousness.

Imagination is not a concept at all. It is all direct experience.

There is no cessation in your direct experience. This is obviously the case right now.

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Don't you see that you have created a circular defense concept that gives you absolute authority, creates a hugely egotistical ground for you to stand on (God realization), and most importantly is NOT something you are experiencing in the present moment?  This is the definition of delusion.

It's not a concept, it's Absolute Truth, which is of course tautological and unassailable. That's a feature, not a bug.

You are experiencing imagination and consciousness in this very moment. Nothing conceptual about it.

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There is no ground, not even God or consciousness.  The way you are thinking about these things is still ultimately conceptual (and it MUST be so, since they are not happening NOW for you), and the only thing that WANTS there to be a ground is your spiritual ego, which is definitely alive and well.

God and consciousness are everything. You are God dreaming up that you are not God.

Ego has nothing to do with it.

Notice that you are conscious right now, yet you try to deny consciousness. This is silly.

54 minutes ago, Endangered-EGO said:

@Leo Gura Not a single known buddhist or vipassana teacher has achieved God realisation?

I didn't say that.

I just said to be skeptical of Buddhists. They are not as woke as they appear to be.

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Who of the modern teachers do you assume has realised God?

Peter ralston, adyashanti, shinzen young, shunyamurti, Jim Newman, sadhguru? 

It's hard to say. I would have to interview them really deeply. I have done so only with Shinzen, and my best guess is that he is not.

Ralston is deeply mistaken about Love.

As I awaken more I tend to see fewer and fewer teachers as fully God-realized. The things they teach simply do not align with my own highest realizations. And I will always side with my own realizations over any teachers words. I recommend you do the same. You will not find God thru anyone's words.

[Flyboy]

@Leo Gura You've done a remarkable job of twisting nonduality into a belief structure for yourself that you can't see.  

You have done psychedelics, which led to "awakenings" or whatever you want to call it, and then returned to your "normal" asleep state.  From the asleep state, you have remembered those awakenings by turning them into concepts.  You have then taken those concepts and applied them to your metaphysical belief system, without acknowledging that they are concepts (and thus have convinced yourself they aren't beliefs either, which of course is a belief too). 

In doing so, you've literally created with your finite mind the tautology that is so indefensible, and (not) coincidentally a very nice ground for your ego to hold on to.  You've created the most sophisticated hole to live inside of, and are very cozy there.  Unfortunately, it's not Truth.

[Endangered-EGO]

@Leo Gura Interesting... I would love to see you interview Shinzen. I bet he would gladly say yes.

[Leo Gura]

@Flyboy You are imagining reality. This is not a concept.

You are arguing over nothing.

[Girzo]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

As I awaken more I tend to see fewer and fewer teachers as fully God-realized. The things they teach simply do not align with my own highest realizations.

Isn't it the ultimate fate of every serious mystic? To end up utterly alone, with no-one to share the understanding with, with no method of sharing it and with no point in doing so.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Girzo said:

Isn't it the ultimate fate of every serious mystic? To end up utterly alone, with no-one to share the understanding with, with no method of sharing it and with no point in doing so.

Not alone. Together foever!

[Flyboy]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Flyboy You are imagining reality. This is not a concept.

You are arguing over nothing.

Of course it is.  What you're talking about is like someone in a VR dream taking off the goggles, being like "whoa cool real world", putting the goggles back on, and then returning to a VR world IN WHICH an awakening also occurred.  As long as you are in the VR world, you can never be referring to the real awakening.  There is absolutely no way for you to be "conscious" of Truth except NOW, because now is all there is.  And you are not awake right now, because you experience reality through the dense layers of fabrication of your identity.

So anything, literally anything, that you take away from your psychedelic experiences is relegated to concept and thus "isn't it".  

But this isn't even the crux of your issue.  The crux of your issue is you have not deconstructed the fabrication of self, which goes all the way down to the root of experience.  Identity is embedded in the layers of mind, body, heart, gut, and even extremely subtle fabrications like time and space.  It's even embedded in consciousness itself (within a moment of "knowing", which is what consciousness IS, there is still the subtle I-thought).  If you want to awaken, you must clearly see through ALL GROUNDS, including the ground of identifying as God.  That seems counterintuitive conceptually, which is why you reject it so vehemently, but that is self-bias and delusion acting on your part.  Truly enlightened folks have let go of all grounds to rest in a place of simultaneously full emptiness.  A "place" of total freedom, boundless spontaneity, and "neitherness".  It neither exists nor doesn't exist, but gives rise to both.  It is the Mystery of Being.  This is what you are missing, Leo.  And you just can't get to it on psychedelics.  It's not a function of meditation either, but truly of letting go of all clinging, fabrication, and identification.  The dependent origination of illusion must collapse simultaneously.

[Godishere]

@Flyboy I'm pretty sure he's aware of that. Absolute Truth is limitless imagination with only the limits it has placed upon itself. "God realization" is a concept of course, but it's a concept that's pointing to a state that occurs when you become aware of infinite consciousness and that you are willfully constructing what you call life. This argument could just go on forever because you are just claiming to let go of all labels, but how else can we discuss it? We live in a dualistic world and again, "God" is a dualistic term. 

To identify with anything less that God/Infinity would be false because infinity is nothing."Emptiness or cessation" is just one state of consciousness and you are all states and everything. The identification of no identification IS identification, so by default your point is groundless. I do want to say though, I understand what your pointing at, it just IS and anything less than that IS-ness is false. But we do live in duality so this is the most accurate way to speak about what IS.

Identity = Self  Self = conversation Selfless = no conversation

Nothing exists outside of infinity and you are infinity, the end.

Edit: truly enlightened folk realize that all states of consciousness is already enlightenment.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Godishere

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Flyboy said:

Of course it is.  What you're talking about is like someone in a VR dream taking off the goggles, being like "whoa cool real world", putting the goggles back on, and then returning to a VR world IN WHICH an awakening also occurred.  As long as you are in the VR world, you can never be referring to the real awakening.

You make a duality between Truth and some VR dream. Truth IS the dream. They are identical. If they are not, you are stuck in duality.

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There is absolutely no way for you to be "conscious" of Truth except NOW, because now is all there is.  And you are not awake right now, because you experience reality through the dense layers of fabrication of your identity.

I see Truth right now and at all times. Since it is all there is.

But there are still various degrees of seeing it. Am I at the highest level of consciousness right now as I could be? No. But neither are you. You are dreaming right now. If you weren't, there would be no universe.

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So anything, literally anything, that you take away from your psychedelic experiences is relegated to concept and thus "isn't it". 

This is simply false. You assume a duality between psychedelic states and non-psychedelic states. No such duality exists. This duality is purely your bias. All states are Absolute Truth.

You do not properly understand how psychedelics work.

If I was to use your logic, I could likewise say that anything that you take away from meditation or self-inquiry is relegated to concept and thus isn't it. This is a foolish way of thinking.

[Jakuchu]

Till this day leo is still in the bathroom peeing 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Jakuchu