Is this Sleep Expert Full of Sh*t

[SQAAD]

Basically they are discussing about sleep and then Lex Fridman goes on to say that his sleep scheldue is all over the place. Then the sleep expert states some worrying data about night shift workers who are more likely to get certain diseases. So far so good.

But after a while, he kinda gives a free pass to Lex by saying something like ''if that works for you, then do that'' (i am paraphrasing). He takes the stance of someone who doesn't want to advise people and let them do what they want. At this point i'm like ''wtf''.

This sounds to me like ''we have some data that smoking can cause cancer but if it works for you then do whatever you wanna do''.

It's like he was trying to please/appeal to Lex and everybody else. I don't get it. I believe experts on some fields should give more advices and not let things remain so vague. Many people don't know how to interpret the data. Maybe you the expert, should kinda guide me and not leave things so willy-nilly.

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by SQAAD

[Michael569]

A mark of a professional is knowing when to back off. You can have all the data and knowledge you want but sometimes you come across a wall, someone who does not want to hear the answer and they'd rather carry on doing what they are doing despite the fact it is not serving them. This guy was clearly not ready to hear that advice. 

 

As a health professional all he can do is to share the latest research and if this dude is not ready to accept that, from Matthews's perspective that's it. There is nothing else he can do. 

3 hours ago, SQAAD said:

This sounds to me like ''we have some data that smoking can cause cancer but if it works for you then do whatever you wanna do''

most smokers are fully aware that they can die from lung cancer which has 8% treatment success. But most smoke anyway and you can overwhelm them with research but it won't help. There are other, much bigger dynamics going on there. 

[SQAAD]

@Michael569

30 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

A mark of a professional is knowing when to back off. You can have all the data and knowledge you want but sometimes you come across a wall, someone who does not want to hear the answer and they'd rather carry on doing what they are doing despite the fact it is not serving them. This guy was clearly not ready to hear that advice. 

 

As a health professional all he can do is to share the latest research and if this dude is not ready to accept that, from Matthews's perspective that's it. There is nothing else he can do. 

most smokers are fully aware that they can die from lung cancer which has 8% treatment success. But most smoke anyway and you can overwhelm them with research but it won't help. There are other, much bigger dynamics going on there. 

I just didn't like the way he handled the conversation after a certain point. He gave the facts. Then he could stop there. But instead he even kinda encouraged Lex to do whatever he is doing... which i do not understand.

[undeather]

4 hours ago, SQAAD said:

Basically they are discussing about sleep and then Lex Fridman goes on to say that his sleep scheldue is all over the place. Then the sleep expert states some worrying data about night shift workers who are more likely to get certain diseases. So far so good.

But after a while, he kinda gives a free pass to Lex by saying something like ''if that works for you, then do that'' (i am paraphrasing). He takes the stance of someone who doesn't want to advise people and let them do what they want. At this point i'm like ''wtf''.

This sounds to me like ''we have some data that smoking can cause cancer but if it works for you then do whatever you wanna do''.

It's like he was trying to please/appeal to Lex and everybody else. I don't get it. I believe experts on some fields should give more advices and not let things remain so vague. Many people don't know how to interpret the data. Maybe you the expert, should kinda guide me and not leave things so willy-nilly.

 

Your bias stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of how medical science and data interpretation works. 
Scientific studies, like the one mentioned in the video, will show you a distribution of outcomes along an axis, which usually takes the shape of a bell curve. Some trials show highly significant, highly escalating  results which dont require further disassembling of the data - the smoking example you mentioned is the perfect analogy. We just know that almost anyone who will continiously smoke cigarettes throughout his life, will shorten their healthspan significantly. The statistical aberration is so big that we can tell people without a doubt to better never touch those tabacco products in their life. 

This same process becomes infinitely more difficult when we talk about a highly complex topic like sleep.
Its just not as black and white and there is no "perfect" sleep protocol which works the same for every human being. There are definitely guidelines/rules of thumb which will benefit most individuals in a certain collective but thats never the whole story. The ability of our body to adapt to external circumstances makes it even more complex and thats exactly where Walkers point comes into play. If you have found something that works for you, even if it goes against whats "good" in the orthodoxic sense, then go with it. Thats the best way to approach those topics anyway: Through your personal experience. We are FAR from understanding all the physiological and biochemical mechanisms that make up our sleep - nor are ever going to have a complete picture. If you want to fix your sleep, start with what works for most people and then be your own experiment. 

Finally I will give you a weird example from my personal life. 
I used to work nightshifts in a factory during school summer breaks - most people hated it but I loved it. My sleep was amazing, even though my usual sleep cycle got crushed from one day to the other. It just didnt seem to affect me. On the other hand, the early shift, which was the preferred one for most workers, destroyed my subjective wellbeing . Now, if we look at our current understanding then my example goes directly against the grain of our current sleep literature. Its a complex system and no simple reading of the data will get you very far.

[SQAAD]

@undeather

1 hour ago, undeather said:

Your bias stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of how medical science and data interpretation works. 
Scientific studies, like the one mentioned in the video, will show you a distribution of outcomes along an axis, which usually takes the shape of a bell curve. Some trials show highly significant, highly escalating  results which dont require further disassembling of the data - the smoking example you mentioned is the perfect analogy. We just know that almost anyone who will continiously smoke cigarettes throughout his life, will shorten their healthspan significantly. The statistical aberration is so big that we can tell people without a doubt to better never touch those tabacco products in their life. 

This same process becomes infinitely more difficult when we talk about a highly complex topic like sleep.
Its just not as black and white and there is no "perfect" sleep protocol which works the same for every human being. There are definitely guidelines/rules of thumb which will benefit most individuals in a certain collective but thats never the whole story. The ability of our body to adapt to external circumstances makes it even more complex and thats exactly where Walkers point comes into play. If you have found something that works for you, even if it goes against whats "good" in the orthodoxic sense, then go with it. Thats the best way to approach those topics anyway: Through your personal experience. We are FAR from understanding all the physiological and biochemical mechanisms that make up our sleep - nor are ever going to have a complete picture. If you want to fix your sleep, start with what works for most people and then be your own experiment. 

Finally I will give you a weird example from my personal life. 
I used to work nightshifts in a factory during school summer breaks - most people hated it but I loved it. My sleep was amazing, even though my usual sleep cycle got crushed from one day to the other. It just didnt seem to affect me. On the other hand, the early shift, which was the preferred one for most workers, destroyed my subjective wellbeing . Now, if we look at our current understanding then my example goes directly against the grain of our current sleep literature. Its a complex system and no simple reading of the data will get you very far.

Very nice explanation i have to admit.

We will never have the perfect picture for sure. But our intuitions tell us that the best thing would be to work with how our body was designed to work and not go against it. Lex is going against his body to pursue his goals. That works well for him professionally but if he gets cancer 20 years from now then that will be a different story of how well it works for him.

Edited September 6, 2021 by SQAAD

[Blackhawk]

That's life. It's dangerous to be alive.

I work night shift and my sleep schedule is all over the place. I know that it's bad for my health, but I don't give a fuck.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Blackhawk

[undeather]

Quote

 

Very nice explanation i have to admit.

We will never have the perfect picture for sure. But our intuitions tell us that the best thing would be to work with how our body was designed to work and not go against it. Lex is going against his body to pursue his goals. That works well for him professionally but if he gets cancer 20 years from now then that will be a different story of how well it works for him.

 

Yes and no. 
We want to live in accordance with our evolutionary blueprint so that cumulative stressors dont overwhelm our homeodynamic capacities to repair the damage done just by being alive. Yes. The issue is that its not that clear cut what that even means in a practical sense. Since the ability to adapt itself is part of this evolutionary mechanism, we can be sure that there is no "single intuitive way" to deal with your physiological needs. I think that its smarter to look at it from an entropy perspective: Find out what works for you and then do that CONSISTENTLY, which is the key. The more chaos there is in your sleeping pattern, the less resistence and ability to adapt your endogenous systems will have to fight entropy. WE totally see this in the data by the way. Fixed shifts are usually healthier than rotating ones, at least after cleaning up the confounders. 

Also, what Lex does or doesnt do is his choice. It shouldnt bother you at all. 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by undeather

[Waken]

Well it comes down to what works for you of course, which may be different for everybody. I would say that because people don't really listen to their own feelings/body that they look for generalizations that some experts study that may work to some degree for them.

How I think of it though, is that that guy is pushing (too much) in life. If he would say I do what feels great in every moment and I do end up sleeping only once in 20 hours and I feel great, than I would think of it very different. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Waken

[The0Self]

I've done a lot of research into sleep matters, as I have narcolepsy. I no longer have symptoms strangely, but anyway.

The only hard and fast rule is that everyone needs at least 4 hours a day, and virtually no one needs more than 9 a day.

[SQAAD]

@Blackhawk

3 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

That's life. It's dangerous to be alive.

I work night shift and my sleep schedule is all over the place. I know that it's bad for my health, but I don't give a fuck.

Hey man, i can relate. I have been struggling with sleep scheldue and sleep in general for the past 8 months and it really really sucked. Pure torture it was for me.

But now finally i resolved the issue.

As for the health part you said, i guess you are in your 20s and saying  this lol. (I'm in my late 20s btw). Because someone who has suffered from poor health , really but really appreciates health. You may not give a fk now. But you will give when something goes terribly wrong. 

Also i think working night shifts is not a death sentence. It can probably be done in healthier ways and you could still enjoy good health for as long as possible. Still this topic hasn't been researched enough.

Edited September 6, 2021 by SQAAD

[Blackhawk]

1 minute ago, SQAAD said:

@Blackhawk

Hey man, i can relate. I have been struggling with sleep scheldue and sleep in general for the past 8 months and it really really sucked. Pure torture it was for me.

But now finally i resolved the issue.

As for the health part you said, i guess you are in your 20s and saying  this lol. (I'm in my late 20s btw). Because someone who has suffered from poor health , really but really appreciates health. You may not give a fk now. But you will give when something goes wrong. 

I'm 32.

I will take the consequences then and regret nothing. Like a soldier who knows he might get shot when he goes to war.

[SQAAD]

@Blackhawk

2 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

I'm 32.

I will take the consequences then and regret nothing. Like a soldier who knows he might get shot when he goes to war.

If you can do that, more power to you. I am all for it.

[SQAAD]

@Waken

2 hours ago, Waken said:

Well it comes down to what works for you of course, which may be different for everybody. I would say that because people don't really listen to their own feelings/body that they look for generalizations that some experts study that may work to some degree for them.
 

The best expert, the best doctor, is our own body. More intelligent that any guru or expert outhere.

[SQAAD]

@undeather

2 hours ago, undeather said:

Also, what Lex does or doesnt do is his choice. It shouldnt bother you at all. 

 

It doesn't.

[Waken]

6 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

@Waken

The best expert, the best doctor, is our own body. More intelligent that any guru or expert outhere.

?