The bad side of Vaush

[Raze]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I've watched enough Vaush to know he's not even close to evil.

In fact, he has some very intelligent political instincts for a socialist. He's just not good at accepting and empathizing with stage Blue, and he's still immature.

But it is silly to expect him to be some kind of Yellow Spiral Wizard. He is peak Green. And that means all the classic limits of Green.

You are getting hung up on the title. The problem isn't his political positions or instincts, it's that he's all but said things like principles aren't important to him as all he cares about is justifying his beliefs, which is directly leads to spreading misinformation and arguing things he doesn't believe in. His fans also show a severe lack of empathy.

If this is how they behave on online debates, imagine if someone like him actually had power? It makes it clear how communist movements can go from preaching tolerance and studying advanced social theories, to demonizing and purging.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Raze

[Opo]

8 hours ago, SaWaSaurus said:

lol.. so he never actually says what you originally posted. 

I LiTeaRaLLy SaiD tHaT

[Dryas]

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

Nonsense, Hasan is employing people himself, he wants to literally change the entire framework of our economy, and yet he himself will not create a cooperative?

I don't know enough to comment on this, but I'd imagine it's because his kind of work isn't really suited for cooperatives? Do you know of anyone specifically complaining about terrible work conditions under his employment?

3 minutes ago, Scholar said:

he could so much more

Like what? He says he donates to charity and.. well, I guess he could donate to politicians or something (though maybe he already does?). I mean the guy has probably had a decent influence. He's got over a million followers on twitch. He could always do more, but like..

5 minutes ago, Scholar said:

aspouses individualsitic virtues

Huh? His audience is full of socialists, not libertarian types. I don't see it.

[Scholar]

It's so mindblowing to me. You have like this priest who just bought himself a ferrari, and then a person who actually lives by the virtues of Christ comes along to criticize the guy for not living by the words of Jesus. And you guys go "But nobody is perfect, leave our Priest alone! Just because he buys himself a ferrari doesn't mean he isn't a good Christian!".

The only people who would say this, and support the priest, are people who themselves don't care about the word of Christ at all, and who themselves would buy themselves a ferrari if they were the priest.

 

The entire idea of stage orange individualism is that anyone can do with their money whatever they please. They can get rich by telling everyone about lofty ideals, and then do nothing to live by those ideals. Nobody is saying the guy can't have a reasonable living, but come on. You literally got rich off of this and you will use most the money for your own benefit? That's utterly shameless, especially as a socialist.

 

I know plenty, plenty stage green people who literally have barely anything and do more than that guy does. They wouldn't even want to live like that, to them it's simply disgusting. I really do believe most of the people on this forum have a huge lack of understanding of what embodiment stage green actually means, which is why you have such a difficult time spotting these obvious frauds. The only way you can analyse these issues is by surface level ideologies people hold, which tells me precisely to which depth you have explored a particular stage.

 

8 minutes ago, Dryas said:

I don't know enough to comment on this, but I'd imagine it's because his kind of work isn't really suited for cooperatives? Do you know of anyone specifically complaining about terrible work conditions under his employment?

Like what? He says he donates to charity and.. well, I guess he could donate to politicians or something (though maybe he already does?). I mean the guy has probably had a decent influence. He's got over a million followers on twitch. He could always do more, but like..

Huh? His audience is full of socialists, not libertarian types. I don't see it.

Okay my dude.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Scholar

[DocWatts]

57 minutes ago, Scholar said:

If however someone is literally becoming the one percent of the one percent, by spouting socialist ideals, and literally criticizing celebreties for the very same things that one would engage in as soon as one had aquired the same amount of wealth and status, and feeling no responsibility to actually meaningfully change themselves or the system that one literally views to be as completely unjustified and evil, then one is no different from a Televangelist. The guy is filthy rich and he literally is doing viritually nothing to live by his socialist ideals. The world is not going to change by people talking about ideals, the world is going to change by people actually changing their behaviours and values.

What would someone living by 'socialist ideals' mean in your view?

From Vaush's own political ideology (Libertarian Market Socialism), his socio-economic ideals as I understand them involve an expansion of democracy in to the workplace (acceas to the means of production through worker owned businesses) and de-commoditization of essential goods and services.

So how is being a self employed political commentator a betrayal of these goals?

As others have already pointed out, socialism is not against the idea of wealth, it's against using control of Capitol for exploitative purposes.

Edited September 6, 2021 by DocWatts

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

What would someone living by 'socialist ideals' mean in your view?

From Vaush's own political ideology (Libertarian Market Socialism), his socio-economic ideals as I understand them involve an expansion of democracy in to the workplace (acceas to the means of production through worker owned businesses) and de-commoditization of essential goods and services.

So how does being a self employed political commentator a betrayal of these goals?

As others have already pointed out, socialism is not against the idea of wealth, it's against using control of Capitol for exploitative purposes.

Vaush is a bit different from Hasan, in that he is more honest about his values, which are very clearly not stage green. Here you have a stage green socialist criticizing Vaush:

 

The key difference that you will notice is that Vaush will argue against taking responsibility for what happens collectively, as someone at stage orange would naturally do, whereas Perspective Philosophy will argue for taking responsibility. How they arrive at these positions is relatively meaningless, because both of them are ad-hoc rationalizations for more underlying value systems.

If you do not know Vaush's history, he is very much inspired by another steamer called Destiny, his entire philosophy is basically a copy of his, a sort of utilitarianism that is grounded in egoism. Ironically Destiny has already developed past that point and in practice is further developed on the spiral than Vaush, even though both are very deficient in green.

[SaWaSaurus]

50 minutes ago, Opo said:

I LiTeaRaLLy SaiD tHaT

You have to be trolling right?

[Scholar]

9 minutes ago, SaWaSaurus said:

You have to be trolling right?

Time-stamped.

[SaWaSaurus]

4 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Time-stamped.

Much better context. And it's basically about what I was assuming his position, but haven't seen a ton of stuff from this guy, certainly not a clip this old. Some incredibly awful rhetoric, but his underlying point seems clear: political violence can be justified depending on the circumstance. If I were a Jew in Nazi Germany, I'd be justified in murdering an SS officer, obviously. Does anyone legitimately think vaush wants all capitalists to die because he disagrees with them? That would be next level bad faith interpretation of his position imo.

[Opo]

31 minutes ago, SaWaSaurus said:

You have to be trolling right?

Use your brain. 

[SaWaSaurus]

2 minutes ago, Opo said:

Use your brain. 

Ok here it goes. You could have been like @Scholar and provided any sort of context, instead you just make outlandish claims and condescending one-liners instead of giving me anything to reply to. My conclusion is that your avatar is extremely ironic.

[Opo]

@SaWaSaurus ??

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Scholar said:

No, that's not true, that's not how any of this works Leo. How can you be saying this when you studied the model so much. Stage orange people can have a wide range of ideals. I mean, look at stage red people, they had communist ideals, does that mean they were stage green? No, they obviously were not.

Hasan is actually spreading his own bastardized version of stage Green values, as he keeps avoiding personal responsibility. That is one of the biggest hallmarks of stage green. The difference between someone like Vaush/Hasan and someone who is actually grounded in stage green is that when you tell them they are responsible for the collective state and have a moral obligation to do something about it, the person grounded in stage green will feel in their core that responsibility. They will be grounded in that.

Someone at stage orange will look at factory farms and go like "Yes that's bad but it's not my problem, we have to change society! Leave my individual choices alone!". Someone at stage green will look at factory farms and feel personally responsible for it. "Oh shit that's bad, what am I doing? I am creating these farms, I need to stop!".

Same goes for something like creating a cooperative. Hasan has easily the wealth and the social power to create wonderful things in the world that would contribute positively and practically to showcasing the ideals of socialism. But he has no interest in that, because he feels no collective obligation whatsoever. He is at the core an individualist, which is why he behaves the way he does and why when confronted about this by people who are actually at stage green, he will throw his hands in the air and say "You can't expect a socialist to enslave himself to the system! We all live under capitalism therefore anything goes!". The guy is filthy rich, he is one of the very few people who is NOT enslaved by capitalism, he is in the position to actually benefit his community greatly in actually practical ways. But he is not interested in doing that whatsoever, what is on his mind are pornstars. That's what tells me his actual values.

 

Just because someone dogmatically believes in the virtues of Jesus Christ doesn't mean they are at stage coral or whatever. Usually it means they are at stage blue.

You make some good points. I agree that Green has a lot of depth to its embodiment. In my way of thinking I distinguish between mild Green and deep Green. You are talking about deep Green. I just don't expect deep Green from a gamer streamer. I also don't know if its fair to place that much burden on people. Expecting Hasan to drop his streaming career and run off to build a commune is not necessarily what is right for him. If he did that he would stop having the big audience that he has and it would probably be a net loss for spreading Green politics, shallow as streaming may be.

It's not like I'm running off to start a commune either. "Benefiting the community" is a very relative, subjective, and personal thing. My benefit is via my YT videos. I extend the same to Hasan.

[Scholar]

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You make some good points. I agree that Green has a lot of depth to its embodiment. In my way of thinking I distinguish between mild Green and deep Green. You are talking about deep Green. I just don't expect deep Green from a gamer streamer. I also don't know if its fair to place that much burden on people. Expecting Hasan to drop his streaming career and run off to build a commune is not necessarily what is right for him. If he did that he would stop having the big audience that he has and it would probably be a net loss for spreading Green politics, shallow as streaming may be.

It's not like I'm running off to start a commune either. "Benefiting the community" is a very relative, subjective, and personal thing. My benefit is via my YT videos. I extend the same to Hasan.

I think there is a balance between ending your career to create your own socialist upotia in the jungle and literally engaging in the the most capitalistic tendencies possible that you yourself called out other celebreties for engaging in. Whether he likes it or not, he is in a position of leadership, and he will be an example to many people, like you are Leo. At least you don't live the opposite of what you are espousing, like Hasan does. The guy is literally engaging in the most ridiculous superficial stage orange lifestyle you can imagine. Hell, I know stage orange people who would cringe at what the guy is doing and what he is spending his money on.

[Epikur]

 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

and what he is spending his money on

Honestly I don't know what he's spending his money on other than a house. Nor do I give a fuck what he spends his money on as long as it doesn't corrupt the government.

[Scholar]

Just watching the video, it actually does a pretty good job at pointing out some of the silliness of Vaush, and looking at it from a Spiral Dynamics lense it actually is really good at showing off how he is utterly grounded in stage orange, and how a regression to red can easily happen from that place.

 

The difficulty of post modern deconstruction is actually to not revert back to stage red, because fundamentally, it is deconstructing stage blue fundamentally. It is deconstructing objectivity, morality and so forth. To an ego mind this can be very appealling, as it allows you to just live out your power fantasies.

We must note though that these power-fantasies are largely grounded in stage orange, they are not quite the same as a grounding in stage red power values. What we can basically observe in Vaush is an unhealthy manifestation of a stage blue shadow. And beyond that he just lacks much of the stage green that would be necessary for him to healthily integrate what he has learned. His it not trascending stage orange, rather he uses the little of stage green he has to even further ground himself in orange. It is a fascinating dynamic to observe.

 

He is a really good example of someone who is dysfunctional in the way they evolve through the spiral. Such people can do huge damage to how society evolves through the spiral, as they pull people into the same kind of pathway and dysfunction, at least in the short term. In the more long term he will probably be an example for how to not evolve, which will help people to avoid this particular trap.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Scholar

[RareGodzilla]

He's not the worst, but keep in mind he's mainly an entertainer and gamer. Don't take that YouTube shit too seriously. 

[Late Boomer]

My take as a sort of stage green sort of maybe yellowish trajectory: His aim seems to be to deradicalize alt-right gamers who are currently orange-regressing to red. He has their same edgy aesthetic, which is probably the only way to appeal to them. I'm not a gamer, but I know talking smack is something they respect. I at least use Reddit... I doubt he will turn many of them to stage green progressives, but if he can just hold them at orange and drag them out of their fascist trajectory. Stage green that talks like stage green can't even talk to them. I may have my spiral dynamics mixed up, but I have seen examples of people he talked out of harmful positions. Hunter Avellone for one.

[PurpleTree]

5 hours ago, Fearey said:

while themselves being far less developed human beings.

far less developed human beings? that sounds a bit elitist maybe