The bad side of Vaush

[Leo Gura]

@Opo You are correct in that most socialists will act selfishly when it comes to their own finances and survival.

You cannot be selfless simply by adopting a socialist ideology.

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@Opo You are correct in that most socialists will act selfishly when it comes to their own finances and survival.

You cannot be selfless simply by adopting a socialist ideology.

Yet socialism is better than capitalism and I don't mean the Russian type. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@SaWaSaurus

15 hours ago, SaWaSaurus said:

Did it ever occur to you that when Vaush said this he might have been like, joking? The fact that you can't tell it's a joke shows your extraordinary bias against this person.

   Oh, so joking doesn't mean it's serious then? Does dark humor count?

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Yet socialism is better than capitalism.

Not necessarily. If only things were so simple.

[SaWaSaurus]

14 hours ago, Opo said:

He said that anyone who disagrees with him should be killed. Most people in our society would say that that's evil.

1:21:33-1:21:48

lol.. so he never actually says what you originally posted. If people were to take what you said at face value, Vaush would want to kill like 98% of the population. This is why you were called out for bad faith. 'Political violence' is so broad you'd have to get him to narrow it down, and then you could nitpick at him if you wanted, but that's not what you did. Every war fought is political violence. Bombing up Nazi facilities during WW2 is political violence. Native Americans forming hit squads to attack the colonizers is political violence. Uyghurs Muslims fighting the CCP is political violence. Your original statement was not this, and so laughably far from this that I can't take anything more you say seriously. Yes there are criticisms for Vaush, and if he believed in like killing all capitalists, or assassinating republicans in congress, I'd say that's taking political violence wildly too far, but I seriously seriously doubt he believes that.

[Willie]

4 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Yet socialism is better than capitalism and I don't mean the Russian type. 

In theory, sure. In practice, not so much. I think the best implementation so far was in Yugoslavia. But even that was a house of cards that collapsed relatively fast.

[Epikur]

4 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Yet socialism is better than capitalism and I don't mean the Russian type. 

 

NO

[Raze]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys are way over-demonizing Vaush. Yeah, his rhetoric is edgy and hyperbolic, but I have no fear that his policies will lead to authoritarianism, unlike with Trump and MAGA. Banning some far right-wing stuff is acceptable as far as I'm concerned. And if you think that's authoritarian, you are the impractical one. Most of the shit that right-wingers get away with today will be outlawed in 50 years because it is devilry that seriously harms the advancement of society. The notion that blatant devilry should be allowed to run free is silly and foolish. That's not how a healthy society is built.

You didn't watch the video and it shows.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

You didn't watch the video and it shows.

I've watched enough Vaush to know he's not even close to evil.

In fact, he has some very intelligent political instincts for a socialist. He's just not good at accepting and empathizing with stage Blue, and he's still immature.

But it is silly to expect him to be some kind of Yellow Spiral Wizard. He is peak Green. And that means all the classic limits of Green.

[Scholar]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Dude, Green includes healthy Orange within it.

If you think Hasan buying a $3M house in LA means that he isn't Green but Orange, you're misunderstanding how Green works. Nothing about Green means that Green can't have $3M.

You are missing the point. It is not about owning a house, it is about where your values are grounded in. Hasan isn't doing anything to live out stage green values other than presenting them in the most stage orange way possible. He is literally just talking about them and making tons of money that he then uses exclusively for his personal benefit. Someone who is actually centered in stage green wouldn't be interested in owning a 3$M house in LA while fucking pornstars, and wearing expensive brand-name clothes. That is utterly cringe to people who are actually grounded in stage green.

Your own lack of authentic stage green seems to make you blind to how people at that stage actually work, and what the difference is between someone who adopts a few ideals and someone whose values are actually grounded in that specific stage.

 

You have a really simplistic idea of what it means to actually be at a certain stage of development. It isn't just about Hasan donating some money so he can feel better about himself, it is about what he values. If he were actually at stage green he would value compassionate, communal living. He would be interested in wanting to be living out his ideals in practice, not just talk about them. He would look at himself and cringe at how inauthentic he is. But he doesn't, all he actually cares about is fucking pornstars, being popular and rich.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Scholar

[Leo Gura]

@Scholar When I assess Hasan I do so by his public policy positions, not his personal life.

Stage Orange people don't tend to have Hasan's policy positions.

I give him allowances for some Orange stuff in his personal life.

You can say policy positions are just empty talk, but it's not so simple. Within the realm of politics (which is what his work is about) Hasan is spreading the Green value set.

[Scholar]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Scholar When I assess Hasan I do so by his public policy positions, not his personal life.

Stage Orange people don't tend to have Hasan's policy positions.

I give him allowances for some Orange stuff in his personal life.

You can say policy positions are just empty talk, but it's not so simple. Within the realm of politics (which is what his work is about) Hasan is spreading the Green value set.

No, that's not true, that's not how any of this works Leo. How can you be saying this when you studied the model so much. Stage orange people can have a wide range of ideals. I mean, look at stage red people, they had communist ideals, does that mean they were stage green? No, they obviously were not.

Hasan is actually spreading his own bastardized version of stage Green values, as he keeps avoiding personal responsibility. That is one of the biggest hallmarks of stage green. The difference between someone like Vaush/Hasan and someone who is actually grounded in stage green is that when you tell them they are responsible for the collective state and have a moral obligation to do something about it, the person grounded in stage green will feel in their core that responsibility. They will be grounded in that.

Someone at stage orange will look at factory farms and go like "Yes that's bad but it's not my problem, we have to change society! Leave my individual choices alone!". Someone at stage green will look at factory farms and feel personally responsible for it. "Oh shit that's bad, what am I doing? I am creating these farms, I need to stop!".

Same goes for something like creating a cooperative. Hasan has easily the wealth and the social power to create wonderful things in the world that would contribute positively and practically to showcasing the ideals of socialism. But he has no interest in that, because he feels no collective obligation whatsoever. He is at the core an individualist, which is why he behaves the way he does and why when confronted about this by people who are actually at stage green, he will throw his hands in the air and say "You can't expect a socialist to enslave himself to the system! We all live under capitalism therefore anything goes!". The guy is filthy rich, he is one of the very few people who is NOT enslaved by capitalism, he is in the position to actually benefit his community greatly in actually practical ways. But he is not interested in doing that whatsoever, what is on his mind are pornstars. That's what tells me his actual values.

 

Just because someone dogmatically believes in the virtues of Jesus Christ doesn't mean they are at stage coral or whatever. Usually it means they are at stage blue.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Scholar

[Epikur]

@Scholar 

Sounds reasonable. Do you think Tim Pool outgreened Hasan?

[Waves]

@Scholar  I don't understand why you think he needs to be fully stage Green to represent those values and almost to have the right to speak about them. The evolution happens in small steps, slowly building on top of each other, it's all enmeshed together, orange and green. Why do you assume he should be any different? Would you rather have him shut up and not spreading any Green values at all, just because he's not fully Green?

I mean, the dude is educating thousands of people about progressive politics and helping them to develop a Greener worldview. How are you not on board with that? I think he's doing an important job. I don't care what he does in his personal life. He seems a very down-to-earth, practical, and funny dude who can entertain, appeal to orange people and help them grow out of orange in small ways, at least in the political domain.

[Scholar]

9 minutes ago, Waves said:

@Scholar  I don't understand why you think he needs to be fully stage Green to represent those values and almost to have the right to speak about them. The evolution happens in small steps, slowly building on top of each other, it's all enmeshed together, orange and green. Why do you assume he should be any different? Would you rather have him shut up and not spreading any Green values at all, just because he's not fully Green?

I mean, the dude is educating thousands of people about progressive politics and helping them to develop a Greener worldview. How are you not on board with that? I think he's doing an important job. I don't care what he does in his personal life. He seems a very down-to-earth, practical, and funny dude who can entertain, appeal to orange people and help them grow out of orange in small ways, at least in the political domain.

The question was about what stage he is at, not about whether he should or shouldn't continue with his nonsense. You completely missed the marked.

[Waves]

@Scholar Cool, my bad. I noticed that you seem to bring a good portion of emotional investment in your attempt to pin him down on the spiral, I don't think it's serving you to gain an accurate idea. I'm sure you'll take my observation for what it's worth.

[DocWatts]

Not sure what people are expecting as far as Green individuals meeting their Survival Needs in an Orange society.

A life of asceticism? Living "off the grid" in a hippie commune until capitalism collapses?

Having any impact at all on the broader culture entails having to engage with the socio-economic system that exists, which in the States is Capitalism.

[Scholar]

4 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Not sure what people are expecting as far as Green individuals meeting their Survival Needs in an Orange society.

A life of asceticism? Living "off the grid" in a hippie commune until capitalism collapses?

Having any impact at all on the broader culture entails having to engage with the socio-economic system that exists, which in the States is Capitalism.

It is not about what we expect Green Individuals to do, it is about what the Green Individuals expect themselves what to do. That is core to their values, and that is how you know where they are at on the spiral.

Nobody is asking someone who is basically a wage slave to capitalism to let go of all his possessions to become some sort of ideal of socialism. None of the actual stage green people who criticize people like Vaush and Hasan make these arguments, it's a ridiculous strawman.

 

If however someone is literally becoming the one percent of the one percent, by spouting socialist ideals, and literally criticizing celebreties for the very same things that one would engage in as soon as one had aquired the same amount of wealth and status, and feeling no responsibility to actually meaningfully change themselves or the system that one literally views to be as completely unjustified and evil, then one is no different from a Televangelist. The guy is filthy rich and he literally is doing viritually nothing to live by his socialist ideals. The world is not going to change by people talking about ideals, the world is going to change by people actually changing their behaviours and values.

 

People like Hasan are the very few people who are privileged enough to actually live out their ideals. But if even they cannot do it, how are they going to expect the entirety of society to change, when any other person would actually have to sacrifice and adopt responsibility to meaningfully change anything in our world. What the guy says and what he does are in complete opposition, and ironically that is what he teaches all the socialists that listen to him. "Continue to engage in capitalism as if nothing changde, but let's talk about how we all think everyone but us is evil for not agreeing with our positions, that we ourselves will not bother actualizing to even the mildest degree in practice!".

 

This is literally Televangelism for socialists.

[Dryas]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

"You can't expect a socialist to enslave himself to the system! We all live under capitalism therefore anything goes!"

Socialists arguments are directed towards people who own the means of production, not every rich person ever. I think Hassan would be classified as an artist under the socialist philosophy.. or something like that.

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

But he is not interested in doing that whatsoever

Simply because he bought a big house? He believes he's doing everything he can through his political commentary and promoting progressive values. What else do you think he should do?

[Scholar]

Just now, Dryas said:

Socialists arguments are directed towards people who own the means of production, not every rich person ever. I think Hassan would be classified as an artist under the socialist philosophy.. or something like that.

Simply because he bought a big house? He believes he's doing everything he can through his political commentary and promoting progressive values. What else do you think he should do?

Nonsense, Hasan is employing people himself, he wants to literally change the entire framework of our economy, and yet he himself will not create a cooperative?

How gullible can you be to think that he is doing everything he can do through his political commentary. The guy is literally rich, he could so much more. By actually doing so little he is doing active harm to the progessives, as he aspouses individualsitic virtues that seek to avoid collective responsibility.

I don't care what he does with his money, I don't expect anything from the guy. But nobody is going to convince me that the dude is anywhere near Stage Green. He is Orange with some Green, not the other way around.