The bad side of Vaush

[Raze]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You think he actually believes that? Lol

Talk about bad faith.

He doesn't, but it is the end result of his philosophy applied. He doesn't have principles, he has beliefs and will stretch whatever he can to justify movements for it. The ends justify the means.

[DocWatts]

Haven't seen anything particularly objectionable in his political content, aside perhaps from some jokes that could be taken in out of context in Bad Faith if someone were so inclined.

I don't agree with all of Vaush's takes, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Nothing so far from what I've seen leads me to think that any of his content has been irresponsible, like a certain person on Spotify that's been platforming toxic Right wingers and spreading Covid misinformation.

Edited September 5, 2021 by DocWatts

[Opo]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't bother

Couldn't let it go. 

The possibility of mishearding was bothering me. 

It's hard to find the balance if I dismiss it I open myself to the possibility of believing something that's false and if I go down the road I waste my time on kinda stupid shit. 

3 hours ago, SaWaSaurus said:

Did it ever occur to you that when Vaush said this he might have been like, joking? The fact that you can't tell it's a joke shows your extraordinary bias against this person.

1:21:33-1:21:48

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You think he actually believes that? Lol

Talk about bad faith.

1:22:09-1:22:37

I was referring to this but he didn't put a clip of Vaush here. I can't remember if the clip was sooner in the video. 

Here is a similar clip that's a bit different but could explain it. 

1:19:22. If you subscribe to a different moral system and that causes me harm I could just kill you. 

Here's a bonus clip. 

1:14 "I don't think there's a way to advocate for a movement in a nonviolent way."

 

[Opo]

3 hours ago, Girzo said:

He is joking in that way all the time. That's a matter of his character type, not integrity. I personally almost never joke in that way, but my best friend does, I am not a biggest fan of it, but that doesn't stop me from being really close to that person. (By "in that way" I mean role-playing some postion as yours so it's believable you hold it, if I role-play something I always exaggerate it a lot and add at the end "obviously I was joking" for clarity as I don't like confusing people.)

I think it's an analogous situation with Vaush. So what if his humor is not my vibe? His takes are actually quite intelligent and I can enjoy listening to him talk, just as I can have a connection with my friend on matters different than simply a sense of humor.

Have not watched the video yet, just joining the conversation.

I actually like making those kinds of jokes that's why I dismissed a lot of this stuff at the beginning. 

[Opo]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

Calling him evil is hyperbolic.

Yea. 

I had some cringe positions in the past and I grew out of them. So I am not advocating for people to stop watching him but to take what he says with a grain of salt. 

[Dryas]

 

6 hours ago, Opo said:

There are people here who blindly follow him. That's why I posted it. 

I wouldn’t know any but okay. I still think you’d be much better off posting it in his subreddit or discord. They will either ban you or talk in good faith, but I believe Vaush has said that he doesn’t want an audience full of cock-sucking fanboys so I reckon at least a few will be happy to address your concerns (although I can’t say how regularly he emphasizes this point so..).

Edited September 5, 2021 by Dryas

[diamondpenguin]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys are wasting your lives on this. Do something constructive, you'll be happier!

[Scholar]

4 hours ago, Opo said:

 

It's so beyond pathetic that he literally alters his entire moral system just so he can justify to consume meat. He will literally accept killing/torturing tribal and mentally handicapped people if they can't reciprocate value.

And one most question, if one is a subjectivist, meaning that all morality is only a description of ones desire, then it actually cannot be the case that these people are being truthful, because clearly they have constructed a conceptual framework that will allow them to engage in an even more underlying value system which is not the values they have actually proposed.

 

This is just typical stage orange cringiness.

[Zizzero]

19 hours ago, Opo said:

Not to spoil this but he's got some problems. 

 

I actually think this is a good case study for the negative aspects of stage blue.

• Moral absolutism: I am right. There is no doubting I am right. Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong and there is no reasons for viewpoints other than mine to exist. Authoritarianism and paternalism
• Tribalism: Us-vs-them-mentality. Anything that helps our side/our goals is good and justified. Dehumanisation of the "others" and thus, a refusal to have empathy with "the others" - police, conservatives

However, he is an interesting character. There seems to be some orange; his obsession with scientific data, valuing logic and data higher than feelings, intuition and introspection. And in the literature, consequentialism is associated with orange.

 

I think a better model than SD/Integral Theory is something like Dodson or Hawkin's Levels of Energy. The problem with Vaush, to put it simple, is that he does not operate out of Love. His worldview appears to revolve around a paradigm where people are evil and "out to get you!" and unless we fight the bad guys, they will win. It's a scarcity-mindset. I sense in him a lot of hurt and anger which he now overcompensates with his antagonistic approach to politics. Any time he interacts with someone he deems a political enemy, he is incapable of seeing the human, he merely sees a battle that ought to be won. He is operating out of a destructive energy. People who watch him, supporters or not, seem to feel worse afterwards; scared, angry or proud/narcissistic. I suggest people find better sources.

[Scholar]

16 minutes ago, Zizzero said:

I actually think this is a good case study for the negative aspects of stage blue.

• Moral absolutism: I am right. There is no doubting I am right. Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong and there is no reasons for viewpoints other than mine to exist. Authoritarianism and paternalism

He is not stage blue in that regard but rather stage orange. He is a moral subjectivist, he doesn't say he is right, he admits that it's just his personal preference. He doesn't need to be right because morality simply is an expression of his desires.

[martins name]

He has a big power shadow

[Zizzero]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

He is not stage blue in that regard but rather stage orange. He is a moral subjectivist, he doesn't say he is right, he admits that it's just his personal preference. He doesn't need to be right because morality simply is an expression of his desires.

I'm not sure about that. He might be a moral subjectivist intellectually. I believe him that he subscribes to that theory on a rational level. However, he has not embodied moral subjectivism, but universal moral realism. I claim that on an emotional or spiritual level, he is not a subjectivist on morality. Like, he doesn't treat disagreement on moral questions as mere disagreement on preferences. He clearly believes that there is such thing as being right or wrong about politics - and not just about the facts, but about values. I think deep down he does believe that the world he wants to build is an objectively better world, as opposed to just the one he would prefer. 

One could say on a rational or philosophical level, he is stage orange. And he is capable of rationalizing and explaining his behavior through an orange lense. But he is operating out of a huge blue shadow and that blue shadow is what his shapes his worldview.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Zizzero

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Scholar said:

One really important thing to realize is that these people are not at all grounded in stage green, they are as orange as you can be. They merely adopt stage green values as an aesthetic. You can see this very well with people like Hasan who live the most stage orange life you can possibly imagine, while in a pure stage orange manner convey their supposed stage green ideals.

This is why these guys are so attractive to people, because fundamentally they are stage orange, not green.

Dude, Green includes healthy Orange within it.

If you think Hasan buying a $3M house in LA means that he isn't Green but Orange, you're misunderstanding how Green works. Nothing about Green means that Green can't have $3M.

8 hours ago, Raze said:

He doesn't, but it is the end result of his philosophy applied. He doesn't have principles, he has beliefs and will stretch whatever he can to justify movements for it. The ends justify the means.

Actually he DOES have principles and values freedoms within reason (which is how all freedom is ever valued). Freedom is never valued as an absolute.

Vaush is a pragmatic guy. This is actually a positive quality in a socialist. Most socialists are way too idealistic and utopian.

You guys are way over-demonizing Vaush. Yeah, his rhetoric is edgy and hyperbolic, but I have no fear that his policies will lead to authoritarianism, unlike with Trump and MAGA. Banning some far right-wing stuff is acceptable as far as I'm concerned. And if you think that's authoritarian, you are the impractical one. Most of the shit that right-wingers get away with today will be outlawed in 50 years because it is devilry that seriously harms the advancement of society. The notion that blatant devilry should be allowed to run free is silly and foolish. That's not how a healthy society is built.

[Willie]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Most of the shit that right-wingers get away with today will be outlawed in 50 years because it is devilry that seriously harms the advancement of society.

I hope it doesn’t even take that long. Isn’t opposing the advancement of society the entire Conservative M.O.?

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, Willie said:

I hope it doesn’t even take that long. Isn’t opposing the advancement of society the entire Conservative M.O.?

There are valid aspects to conservativism. But what it has become in the US today is just criminally absurd.

Just the fact that we tolerate it is already a blemish on our good name.

You don't treat stark stupidity and corruption as though it has equal weight with truth, love, and consciousness.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Cykaaaa said:

Do you think he's exaggerating the stuff he says consciously?

He's literally calling half the country fascists. In his mind conservative pretty much equals fascist. If it's a joke, it's not a very good one + it's incredibly misleading and radicalizing his audience. How is that nuanced and how is that responsible, if he's doing that on purpose (which I doubt he is).

As I have said before, he's falling into the trap of Green demonizing Blue.

[Joel3102]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Dude, Green includes healthy Orange within it.

If you think Hasan buying a $3M house in LA means that he isn't Green but Orange, you're misunderstanding how Green works. Nothing about Green means that Green can't have $3M.

Man that sounds awesome. Get all the moral cred for advocating for social justice sitting in your room, whilst signing an exclusivity contract with Jeff Bezos owned Twitch then shitting on him all day. 

Then when people call you out on not doing anything with your 7 figure annual income off corporate ad revenue to advocate for your causes, you can just say I need to live in society, as if the choice is no house or a $3m house. 

Check out his Instagram, he’s extremely Orange lol with some green.  

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

Man that sounds awesome. Get all the moral cred for advocating for social justice sitting in your room,

Yeah, well, it's a lot better than sitting in a room all day advocating for endless capitalism and plotting to fuck over all your competitors (Orange).

Quote

whilst signing an exclusivity contract with Jeff Bezos owned Twitch then shitting on him all day. 

I have only ever seen Hasan on YouTube.

Quote

Then when people call you out on not doing anything with your 7 figure annual income off corporate ad revenue to advocate for your causes, you can just say I need to live in society, as if the choice is no house or a $3m house. 

1) He says he donates to charities and such.

2) What exactly would you have him do? Give all his money away?

Socialism does not mean that you cannot have a few million in the bank or in your house as long as you worked for it and didn't exploit a bunch of people in the process.

The issue isn't really personal wealth, it's systemic exploitation mechanisms.

Quote

Check out his Instagram, he’s extremely Orange lol with some green.  

I don't doubt he has plenty of Orange too.

- - - - - -

Also keep in mind, it doesn't mean he paid $3M cash for that house. Houses usually come with a 30 year mortgage that gets paid off over one's lifetime of earnings. A $3M mortgage is about $14k/mo over 30 years.

[Opo]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Vaush is a pragmatic guy. This is actually a positive quality in a socialist. Most socialists are way too idealistic and utopian.

I like that he's pragmatic but he could use some system thinking so he doesn't say stuff like this that would have the opposite effect of intended. 

 

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 but I have no fear that his policies will lead to authoritarianism

In general no but if he became a king tomorrow I'd be worried. 

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 Banning some far right-wing stuff is acceptable as far as I'm concerned. 

Like what? 

[Opo]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

2) What exactly would you have him do? Give all his money away?

Nah just have some heart. 

I know sweet Anita pays her moderators on twitch. He could do that. It doesn't have to be a lot to show that he has a soul. 

And if he doesn't want to that's fine just then don't pretend that you care.

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Socialism does not mean that you cannot have a few million in the bank or in your house as long as you worked for it and didn't exploit a bunch of people in the process.

I remember him not paying his editor.