Skeptical about Awakening

[caelanb]

I just watched the 'What awakening feels like' video and am a little skeptical. This is because if you put someone having these awakening experiences under a brain scanner you would clearly see a change in the way the different areas of their brain light up, thus, telling you that person's conscious experience is changing. So, wouldn't that just mean that this progressive change in their conscious experience be caused by something this person did or something that this person consumed (such as psychedelics), which leads them to have different neuronal activation in their brain?

After all, there have been studies that show that if you hit someone on the head or if someone receives a physical trauma to the brain, this can lead to brain injuries/damage, and in certain parts of the brain this could greatly impact there conscious experience to the point of making them disabled. Thus, leading to the conclusion that, it is the brain the creates one's perception, and any changes to it's neurology, will change ones conscious experience.

Also, saying that you can only 'be it', and can not explain it in anyway, seems like a co-pout for having to prove that awakening isn't just a belief and is real. I mean, if this is true and as important as it is being claimed to be, it should be more mainstream; teaching it to people in universities and schools, and people shouldn't call those who speaks about it crazy, insane, or delusional, or unscientific because there is no proof anyone can give to show that it is true.

However, if all this skepticism is BS, which I feel it is not, how am I able to have an awakening experience? I do 20 minutes of meditation everyday but honestly it does not feel like it's calming my mind down or helping at all (maybe I just suck at meditation), however, I did have one nice meditation session about 4 years ago (funny enough it was the only time I ever meditated with my mom who hates meditation). I have tried contemplation once, but I didn't get anywhere. So, I'm a little confused and skeptical I guess. Thank you.

[The0Self]

It's a rather extensive endeavor which absolutely nothing is gained from in the end. And yet in its own way its worth every moment. You don't sound like you know what you're looking for if you think awakening could somehow be just a belief. It's the end of "truth" and the recognition of Truth. There is no one separate from everything that could know (or need) anything -- never has been.

[Consilience]

1 hour ago, caelanb said:

However, if all this skepticism is BS, which I feel it is not, how am I able to have an awakening experience? I do 20 minutes of meditation everyday but honestly it does not feel like it's calming my mind down or helping at all (maybe I just suck at meditation), however, I did have one nice meditation session about 4 years ago (funny enough it was the only time I ever meditated with my mom who hates meditation). I have tried contemplation once, but I didn't get anywhere. So, I'm a little confused and skeptical I guess. Thank you.

Psychedelics would help a lot. Rigorously questioning the mainstream’s metaphysical positions would help too. Scientific materialism is based on a whole host of unconscious beliefs about how we ‘should’ interpret scientific date, as well as how one ‘knows.’ Questioning your own epistemological process is critical as well. Apply the skepticism in on itself, apply it on the sense that you’re even in a position to objectively critique anything about mysticism. How do you actually know anything? Are there things outside of the rational mind’s ability to know? 
 

For example, you do not need to explain the taste of an apple through rational argumentation, you fucking bite that shit and taste it. Expecting someone to prove to you what the the taste of an apple ‘is’ through logic would be absurd. So even with this utterly basic example, we can logically see there are certain facets to existence that can be proven without the use of the logical mind. It may be the case that awakening is another such direct knowing, so direct that it’s prior to interpretation, logic, and reason, not entirely un-similar to the taste of an apple. 

As an aside, Awakening experiences are directly proportional to mind inactivity. Beliefs actually get in the way of experiencing reality directly, but this is only seen after one starts to reliably have access to Awakening experiences and has the meditative training to understand when the mind is less or more active.

On the topic of meditation, 20 minutes per day is nothing for deconstructing and getting to the bottom of reality and what’s existentially True. You’d need 1+ hour per day for multiple years, learning from many masters and traditions, going on at least 1 silent retreat per year before meditation starts to yield significant results. If you want an Awakening from meditation, silent retreats  and a rigorous daily practice are the fastest way. 

[Alex_R]

Check the Donald hoffman theory, then take 150ug of lsd

[Blackhawk]

@caelanb I'm also skeptical about enlightenment, but..

Imagine a radio player, you can measure the electronics in the radio player do stuff when it plays music. And you can change the sound by manipulating the hardware.

So it seems like it's the radio which is creating the sound, but without the radio signals in the air it wouldn't create any sound at all.

[Adamq8]

You should instead contemplate what materialism actually entails, how come matter outside of conciousness,  which is considered dead go together and create conciousness?

If you investigate the brain, the feeling of love can and does correspond with certain areas lightning up, but that does not explain anything, thats a description not an explanation on why electrical impulses in the brain can make me feel love, i dont have any experience of the electrical output of the brain, i have my feelings and perceptions and thoughts about the world.

There is a reason academics and philosphers, cred to David Chalmers, has labeled this particular situation the hard problem of conciousness. 

First of all, it is not hard when viewed through a mind/conciousness only ontology.

It is hard for materialism to reconcile that sub atomic particles which is dead can combine or create a living thing with a nervous system. 

So how do they try to solve it?

By postulating a certain metaphysics which is panpsychism, there is plenty of different versions of panpsychism, but the theory is that matter has an experience, there is something to be a sub atomic particle, but this also gives a new problem, the combination problem, it is as hard as the hard problem of conciousness. 

How does subatomic particles with their own experiences combine into a whole experience called a human being?

Also lets talk about awakening, it is a truly ineffable experience, our language has evolved and is useful in our everyday life, it is inherently dualistic in its nature, but a pure awakening is usally a total non dual experience, we dont have words for it, language can't explain it, BUT we sure do try it extremely hard and it is there and then it is prone to disagreements or contradictions.

A pure awakening is not really a meta concious thing, it is a direct insight without a self there to reflect about it, the reflection usally comes after, and then it is reflected through the filter of the person, its life experiences and beliefs etc.

But what everyone can agree on is that it is a truly ineffable experience. 

 

 

[Adamq8]

Also, it is consistent with research that impaired brain function can and does correlate with a more profound spiritual experience or that ones identity is greatly enhanced, from being a person to being the universe etc.

As with psychedelics, across the board with all different kinds of psychedelics, they greatly decreases brain activity, brain metabolism, totally a counter intuitive find, so a truly breakthrough experience of psychedelics which will guaranteed be the most profound experience of your life, decreases brain metabolism,  so how do we reconcile this with idealism?

The universe consist of experiences, it is a transpersonal field of conciousness, not necessarily a meta cognitive field, but experiential nevertheless, so when the ego/person/individual is getting out of the picture, reality will appear as it is.

That there is a you seperate from the universe is a total illusion, even tho it does not seem to be the case.

 

 

[Thought Art]

[caelanb]

Thank you very much for the replays. This awakening stuff is very confusing. Unfortunately don't understand everything @Adamq8 and @Consilience said, so I cannot really grasp it. And I think you mean @Blackhawk is without the sound waves in the air, there would be no sound? Because from my knowledge, radio waves are what the radio receives as frequency and then it translates that into sound waves.

I read this article on psychology today and it seems to make the opposite claim that Leo makes in his videos, that spiritually makes the world more real not less, with references to Advaita Vedanta and Mayan philosophy https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-the-darkness/201704/the-world-is-not-illusion. There are other about spiritually on Psychology today (etc. The Self is Not an Illusion) but that is one I read. I don't have access to any psychedelics, so I'd have to do something else@Alex_R. The best thing for me to do I guess based on what you all have said is it do 60 minutes meditation everyday, I have a bell that rings every 5 minutes to keep me focused , but even with that I get distracted 90% of the time, and adding 40 minutes of that would probably just add 40 minutes of potential distraction/monkey mind. Retreats (never done this, but considering my level of meditation, this would most likely be extremely difficult), and contemplation, though, when it comes to contemplation, I'm not sure how to contemplate something that feels so obvious to me, such as 'I am a human being' or less obvious, like

On 2021-09-03 at 2:45 AM, Adamq8 said:

how come matter outside of consciousness,  which is considered dead go together and create consciousness?

And even if I do, it's difficult to foresee how it will give me some radical insight, I feel like I'm better of going to ask professor who understands conscious and studies it, because they have hands on experience with it. This is kind of leads to a question for @Leo Gura, if you want to understand consciousness and the quantum physics, philosophy, would it not be beneficial to interview professors and researchers? So that you can double check what you have discovered, you could learn something new from them I guess, because this is what there life is focused on.

However, I did also find this video which does suggest that logic and rationality may have flaws, thus making this stuff sound less like empty philosophy. But because I'm not a math professor or have any degree in math (apart from a HS math), most of the stuff in the video was very confusing and hard to understand.

Funny enough I posted this video in the forums of a math review course that I was in which is offered to students to help prepare for university math.

All in all, maybe I have no clue what's happening or what I'm doing, or maybe my mind is being healthily skeptical, or maybe my mind is looking for an answer that will explain and understand everything Leo is talking, in order to be less confused, I'm not sure. The last thing I'll say is that before I saw any of Leo's videos on awakening or enlightenment, self-deception (all the other more abstract stuff), I didn't think there was potentially anything more to reality than what I see and what people tell me. Thank you.

[Breakingthewall]

On 3/9/2021 at 2:36 AM, caelanb said:

how am I able to have an awakening experience?

it takes true passion, desire for freedom, intelligence to understand the deception of the mind, courage to loosen any grip

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, caelanb said:

This is kind of leads to a question for @Leo Gura, if you want to understand consciousness and the quantum physics, philosophy, would it not be beneficial to interview professors and researchers?

Absolutely not.

You cannot get Absolute Truth from a human.

You have no idea yet how deep this goes. You are playing child's games with your faux skepticism.

[Carl-Richard]

On 3.9.2021 at 2:36 AM, caelanb said:

However, if all this skepticism is BS, which I feel it is not, how am I able to have an awakening experience? I do 20 minutes of meditation everyday but honestly it does not feel like it's calming my mind down or helping at all (maybe I just suck at meditation), however, I did have one nice meditation session about 4 years ago (funny enough it was the only time I ever meditated with my mom who hates meditation). I have tried contemplation once, but I didn't get anywhere. So, I'm a little confused and skeptical I guess. Thank you.

When I first discovered meditation, I meditated 3-6 hours a day and couldn't stop thinking about awakening. You either instinctively know that there is something there or you don't. There is no one that can convince you to pursue awakening but yourself.

[UnbornTao]

Get you, then we’ll talk.

[Loving Radiance]

18 hours ago, caelanb said:

The best thing for me to do I guess based on what you all have said is it do 60 minutes meditation everyday, I have a bell that rings every 5 minutes to keep me focused , but even with that I get distracted 90% of the time, and adding 40 minutes of that would probably just add 40 minutes of potential distraction/monkey mind.

Being focused is good. Focus is something you can train. You can also transcend the duality of focused/unfocused and realize that awareness could truly never be unfocused.

Btw IME, a 10 day retreat (6 hours of meditation, listening to lessons, eating, sleeping) brought more focus than meditating daily for 1 hour for 6 months.

[caelanb]

I guess so, @Leo Gura I can't imagine the disagreements that would arise between you and whichever individual you interview or chat with. They'd probably be like, 'you're crazy for saying or thinking there is an Absolute Truth because I and no one that I have met has seen any/had proof of any'. I mean, that's pretty much what the average person would say, from my experience. But, could it be possible that you could be misunderstanding some things that a physicist understands, which could greatly improve your own understanding? They are complex topics after all, right?

@Carl-Richard Well, I know there is something there, because many studies have shown the benefits of meditation, however, when it comes to transcendence, enlightenment, and the more abstract things, it's harder to grasp. However, I would not be surprised if other higher states of consciousness were possible to achieve (just very difficult to), due to the power of the mind, and what calming it down to very small levels can lead to.

@Arzola I'm not exactly sure what you mean by

17 hours ago, Arzola said:

Get you, then we’ll talk.

@Loving Radiance Did you achieve any awakening experience while doing that 10 days retreat, or was it just a significant reduction in monkey mind?

Is the concept of enlightenment the same or difference as the concept of awakening? And if you get insights from either how do you know their not true or just your mind imagination and creations? Thanks.

 

 

[Loving Radiance]

58 minutes ago, caelanb said:

Did you achieve any awakening experience while doing that 10 days retreat, or was it just a significant reduction in monkey mind?

No awakening. Just being calmer, present and at ease. Feeling that at any moment any emotion and state of mind can be accessed. There were less thoughts to attach to as they were less loud or somehow less self-referential (saying something about me).

58 minutes ago, caelanb said:

Is the concept of enlightenment the same or difference as the concept of awakening? And if you get insights from either how do you know their not true or just your mind imagination and creations?

Enlightenment is seen to be permanent (however that itself breaks down). Awakening is temporary.

The insights are true when looked from your life experience as reference. The broader your experiences the better you can differentiate truth from falsehood. You can recognize that the most truthful thing you have known till now is partial when having an insight into higher truth. Truth reveals itself to be self-evident, there's no doubt. Doubting comes after the fact. Also, expanded consciousness is connected to calm mind & being present.

Imagine hearing:

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Enlightenment is not something that you have to choose
When there is no choice
That which remains is enlightenment

You can hear that and say "Weirdly said. I don't know if that's true." or "This makes no sense and is bs".

Then you can also hear that during shamanic breathing. You feel the impact and extent of it. You recognize that you could have not have felt the extent in your usual state.

It is like understanding things as a child and seeing things with adult capacities. Higher consciousness sees more holistic.

 

Quote

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by

Quote

Get you, then we’ll talk.

It's know yourself first, then we can talk. More self-understanding is needed. Introspection & self-awareness are the way.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Loving Radiance

[Mason Riggle]

@caelanb a few things for your consideration..

"Awakening" - Awakening is just a word we use to describe a paradigm shift, and there are many many ways your paradigm can change, and these shifts in the way you perceive reality can range from simple mundane realizations, to deeply profound insights. 

An example of a 'simple' awakening would be something like, the 'ah ha moment' when a child learns how multiplication works.. previously they could only add and subtract, and the concept of multiplication was unavailable to them, until someone showed them how to do multiplication, and at a certain point, the concept of multiplication was 'realized'. 

A deep Awakening would be something like, the realization of 'no self'.. the moment when an organism discovers that what it persistently mistakes to be 'the thinker of it's thoughts' is just more thoughts, and there is no 'locus of attention' hiding somewhere inside the organism, controlling the organism or causing the organism to be how it is. This type of awakening can be profoundly life altering. 

There is not just one 'Awakening', nor is there just one way to 'Awaken'. 

"Materialism" - Materialism is a paradigm, and many here on this forum have transcended it, the way the child from my prior example transcended addition to multiplication.. it's not that addition gets thrown out and replaced by multiplication.. there is just a deeper understanding which integrates both. So then, those who have transcended Materialism recognize the limits of Materialism.. they understand, for example, that all of physical reality is completely imaginary.. that is to say, the only place reality 'exists' is 'within your awareness of it'. Have you ever considered where 'material' reality is? Where is the Universe? 

So then, talk of 'proof' and 'experts' and such will largely fall on deaf ears and be dismissed here, because to someone who has transcended Materialism, proof, and experts, and physics are all 'imaginary'.. can you prove to yourself, for example, that you are not dreaming right now? What proof could you or anyone else provide you that couldn't just be dismissed as 'more dreaming'?  

 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, caelanb said:

I guess so, @Leo Gura I can't imagine the disagreements that would arise between you and whichever individual you interview or chat with. They'd probably be like, 'you're crazy for saying or thinking there is an Absolute Truth because I and no one that I have met has seen any/had proof of any'. I mean, that's pretty much what the average person would say, from my experience.

Of course they would say that.

And so what?

Stop listening to fools as if they make valid points. Truth is not the mid-point between two positions.

Quote

But, could it be possible that you could be misunderstanding some things that a physicist understands, which could greatly improve your own understanding? They are complex topics after all, right?

Certainly I don't have any deep knowledge of technical physics. But that is irrelevant to the matter of Absolute Truth.

No physicist understands what Absolute Truth. If they did, they would stop doing physics.

Quote

Is the concept of enlightenment the same or difference as the concept of awakening? And if you get insights from either how do you know their not true or just your mind imagination and creations? Thanks.

Awakening/Enlightenment is the realization that EVERYTHING is imagination.

Your mistake is assuming there is anything outside imagination. This is false.

[caelanb]

@Loving Radiance I see, thanks for clearing that up. Personally I feel that my mind just does not want to focus on my breath when I meditate. I usually start to think of random stuff without being aware of it, and because of this I have not had any consistent experiences of a silent mind. Possibly because my mind gets bored of like a focused concentration that is not stimulating., so it decides to go off and do other stuff. Are there any tips you have for dealing with this?

Truth reveals itself to be self-evidence is very far fetched to me, shouldn't you have to validate that whatever it was, was indeed truth?

What is Shamanic breathing exactly, have their been studies on it's benefits and drawbacks? Some weird way of manipulating your breath I'm assuming?

How do I know that I am actually understanding myself better by introspection and the like, and not just thinking thoughts that I want to be like or feel that I am? If there is no basis of facts that you know about yourself, how do you know whether you are going into delusion or not? All I can really do is 'feel', what I like and don't like.

@Mason Riggle I understand the simple awakening, but profound awakenings are less easy to understand. Isn't the no self synonymous to the self, which is a collection of thoughts feelings emotions, perceptions and memories? Thus, not one thing, but a collection of things?

It is hard for me to see how materialism is just a paradigm. The physical world around me is too obvious for me to question it at all; I can't go through walls anything like that. I also can't grasp that reality is only where your awareness is because, in New York for example, everyone living there has an awareness and perceptions of their own, which I have no access to from where I am. I can think thoughts about the reality there but I would have to go ask another individual person about New York's reality if I truly want to know. I don't think that means that New York does not exist out of my awareness, just that I'm not physically there to see it's reality.

I could prove to myself that I am not dreaming, or at least I am 99.9% sure that I am not dreaming, because I have woken up in the same reality after sleeping every single day for my entire life. And the reality I have woken to has been consistent everyday too, the world works the same as it did before I went to bed, as well as the place I went to bed. My dreams on the other hand can change and or not consistent. Thus, seems like good enough proof to me. However, I have never questioned if my dreams are dreams while I am in them, and never my waking life while I'm awake, it just doesn't feel necessary due to the latter.

@Leo Gura Perhaps you can talk to the people that run the Ketamin experience you spoke about on your blog. Charlie and Ben from Charisma on command did an interview one of the guy from Mindbloom, I think that's the Ketamin psychedelic experience company. The podcast seemed more scientific in nature, however, it could provide better understanding of the science psychedelics and Ketamin specifically.

 I can't grasp that there is nothing outside of imagination. If all of it is imagination, reality couldn't possibly be so consistent, with laws and dictating how everything moves/preventing me from putting my hand through solid brick. From my awareness and experience it is too obvious that this isn't imagination. But, since your telling me it that it is, I'm not sure what to do if it actually were/found out that it is, or even how to go about proving it.

Thank you.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by caelanb

[taotemu]

@caelanb You will never find awakening.  It isn't lost.  It isn't some hidden truth.  It isn't a feeling or even a thought.  It is simply the realization of who you really are and by extension, what is really real.  As they say in Zen, "It is too clear, and so it is hard to see."  It is as close as your breath.  It is what is looking through your eyes and thinking your thoughts.  It isn't some new theory or belief system.  It is not some better version of you or some superhero.  You don't need psychedelics to discover it (although they can help in some cases if we are really hypnotized by ego).  I can only imagine how many people have chased their tail in looking for it.  Like Michelangelo said about sculpture, just remove everything that isn't you.  What you are left with is enlightenment / awakening / self-realization.  When it comes to you, you will think, "Damn!  It was right here all along... I just didn't recognize it".