What is the Optimal Caffeine Dose for Best Sleep

[SQAAD]

Basically i want to be using coffee strategically because it helps me to do my job easier but the half-life of caffeine has concerned me a lot.  The half-life of caffeine is 6 hours.

In this video they discuss about caffeine claiming that if you drink 200mg of caffeine after midday then 50mg of caffeine will be still in your system by the time you go to sleep. And this will result in 20% less deep sleep. Basically they suggest to stop drinking coffee after midday.

But still the explanations in this video are not sufficient. They don't suggest optimal caffeine dosages and they leave many questions unanswered. Also i don't see how drinking your coffee 1 hour earlier can do that much of a difference as far as eliminating it from your system.

If i take 400mg of caffeine first thing in the morning then after 18 hours i will still have 50mg of caffeine in my system when i am in my bed.  So whether i drink it after midday or before it doesn't really matter if my dose is big.

How much caffeine should i take for optimal sleep and at what times?

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by SQAAD

[Opo]

Take a scientific approach. 

Buy that ring that measures sleep and test it out. 

[undeather]

Quote

How much caffeine should i take for optimal sleep and at what times?

Caffeine is primarily metabolised in the liver by cytochrome P450 enzymes, which are responsible for more than 90% of caffeine clearance. Its genetically determined and you will find huge interindivudal differences throughout the population, which allows for fast and slow caffeine metabolizers to exist. Besides that, there are also high and low responders due to variants at the caffeine-receptor sites. 

I hope you understand that therefore, its impossible to tell you a magic number that will work for everyone. 
Well actually there is one - which is zero!

A good rule of thumb is no coffee 8 hours before bed. 
A scientific approach would be measuring your sleep quality with the Oura ring or other tools. Its not perfect but it will give you some data. 


 

[hamedsf]

take whatever you healthy dose you want but before noon. it won't affect your sleep. 

[SQAAD]

@hamedsf

2 hours ago, hamedsf said:

take whatever you healthy dose you want but before noon. it won't affect your sleep. 

I think this is not the case when considering the half-life of caffeine.

[SQAAD]

@undeather

2 hours ago, undeather said:

Caffeine is primarily metabolised in the liver by cytochrome P450 enzymes, which are responsible for more than 90% of caffeine clearance. Its genetically determined and you will find huge interindivudal differences throughout the population, which allows for fast and slow caffeine metabolizers to exist. Besides that, there are also high and low responders due to variants at the caffeine-receptor sites. 

I hope you understand that therefore, its impossible to tell you a magic number that will work for everyone. 
Well actually there is one - which is zero!

A good rule of thumb is no coffee 8 hours before bed. 
A scientific approach would be measuring your sleep quality with the Oura ring or other tools. Its not perfect but it will give you some data. 


 

Do you drink coffee and caffeine in general? If yes then how much.

[SLuxy]

My current understanding is that the effects of coffee differs significantly from person to person.

Perhaps, it will require experimentation, and data collection by yourself. I suppose this forum could aid you in interpreting the data you collect.

By data, I just mean i.e. I slept well today after having bed at 11am and sleeping at 8pm.

That's my 2 cents!

[undeather]

1 hour ago, SQAAD said:

@undeather

Do you drink coffee and caffeine in general? If yes then how much.

Yes, I drink 2-3 black coffees a day - the last one at around 14:00 (2 PM) 
4 times a year I stop drinking caffeine containing beverages for a week to reset tolerance. 

But again, I am also a very fast metaboliser - my sleep barely gets affected, even when I drink it at the evening. 


 

[flowboy]

 

As a slow caffeine metabolizer, I relate to this.

I used to metabolize it quicker in my earlier twenties. Now, that's over.

My solution: don't drink coffee as a tool to get work done.

I have found that after a week of abstinence, I'm good to do most work again, and after 40 days, my cognitive ability and energy during most of the day is better than at the peak of a caffeine high.

 

Do I still go back to it? Sometimes. It's enjoyable.

It goes like this: Day 1 I drink some coffee, get some benefits, and have worse sleep.

Day 2 I wake up tired. Have some coffee. Get diminished benefit. Have even worse sleep.

Day 3 I really need that cup to even feel normal and productive. To get back to that awesome level, I need multiple cups, because I accumulated a lot of sleep debt.

After day 3 I usually quit again, because the accumulated sleep debt becomes a problem.

 

So my advice is to not use it as a crutch to be productive. You don't need that, unless you have a dependency. People who don't drink coffee are more productive for a larger portion of the day, than coffee drinkers. And they sleep better.

 

There are some uses that still work for me. When I have to get up super early with little sleep, for a day of travel. It can help me through it. And after that, I better let it go again.

[Michael569]

For Optimal sleep? With capital "O", highlighted, underlined? 

Zero 

 

Different people metabolism caffeine at different speed. There may be competitive detoxification with supplements, herbs, medications even food such as grapefruit, turmeric, black pepper, chamomile, lavender etc all stuff that may competitively inhibit caffeine metabolism at P450 enzymatic pathway. If you are unlucky and cursed with the worst CYP1A1 allele it may take you forever to detoxify caffeine and if you then add dark chocolate and some green tea to the mix you may still be under caffeine influence 12 hours later. Statistically unlikely but if the aim is optimal sleep, then even this has to be accounted for. 

So for optimal sleep the answer is no caffeine

If the question is: "How to minimise impact of caffeine on sleep?" the answer would be stick to one cup and have it before 2pm. 

 

But in the end the best answer is direct experience. Have a week with caffeine and week without and see how you feel/. 

[SQAAD]

@flowboy

3 hours ago, flowboy said:

 

My solution: don't drink coffee as a tool to get work done.

 

Do I still go back to it? Sometimes. It's enjoyable.

It goes like this: Day 1 I drink some coffee, get some benefits, and have worse sleep.

Day 2 I wake up tired. Have some coffee. Get diminished benefit. Have even worse sleep.

Day 3 I really need that cup to even feel normal and productive. To get back to that awesome level, I need multiple cups, because I accumulated a lot of sleep debt.

After day 3 I usually quit again, because the accumulated sleep debt becomes a problem.

 

So my advice is to not use it as a crutch to be productive. You don't need that, unless you have a dependency. People who don't drink coffee are more productive for a larger portion of the day, than coffee drinkers. And they sleep better.

 

There are some uses that still work for me. When I have to get up super early with little sleep, for a day of travel. It can help me through it. And after that, I better let it go again.

I can relate also with what you're saying. This is why the last couple of months i have cut caffeine significantly out of my life and done experiments for weeks with no caffeine.

I also think that the best solution would be to quit caffeine alltogether. This is the emotional difficult solution. I enjoy drinking coffee while working. It makes my time more enjoyable. But the poor sleep is not enjoyable at all.

I've tried drinking only 2 cups of tea and it did not noticeably affect my sleep. Maybe i will stick to that.

I am not dependent on coffee. Today i didn't drink any. But when i do work, it is like an emotional crutch for me.

Edited September 2, 2021 by SQAAD

[SQAAD]

@Michael569

1 hour ago, Michael569 said:

 

So for optimal sleep the answer is no caffeine

If the question is: "How to minimise impact of caffeine on sleep?" the answer would be stick to one cup and have it before 2pm. 

 

But in the end the best answer is direct experience. Have a week with caffeine and week without and see how you feel/. 

How much caffeine/coffee do you drink if you drink any? I would like to know.

[SQAAD]

@flowboy 

13 hours ago, flowboy said:

 

 

This video is great and makes so much sense!! Finally a video saying what i've been thinking all along.