What does mean mean?

[Late Boomer]

What does mean mean?

I am journaling to contemplate different subjects as suggested by Leo's video "How to contemplate using a journal"

I decided to contemplate on the word "mean" (as in what does x mean?). 

What does mean mean? Meaning and truth appear to be related, but not the same. 

Mean is a symbol that means "accurately represent a concept or an object."

Can any symbol be accurate or true? Arguably no. A symbol is by definition not the thing it symbolizes. "The map is not the territory."

Meaning = definition. To define something, you explain what that that something represents. 

Because a word is a symbol, the only definition you can get is another symbol or set of symbols. 

"What is the meaning of life?" is like asking "What is the meaning of 'life'?" Life is a symbol for something you know because you experience it, but you can't really say what it is. If you try to say, you have to use symbols, which are not the thing itself. 

Because language is dualistic and reality is non-dualistic (conditionally for me - still trying to grasp this), "what does x mean?" is a question that can't be answered with words. 

"Hola" is a Spanish word that means "hello" in English but what does that word mean? A greeting. But what does a greeting mean? All you can do is produce more synonyms or symbols. 

What about "aloha"? that means both hello and goodbye in Hawaiian. 

Does a wave or a nod answer the question? What if other cultures use different gestures? What if your culture uses a gesture that means "fuck you" in your culture? You have to somehow know their intention, which is internal. 

So meaning is a meaningless oxymoron isn't it? You can't convey truth or reality with words, you can only symbolize it. 

Interestingly, I decided to begin reading [[Tao Te Ching]] today and the first words were "The Tao that can be told is not the true Tao."

This is my train of thought. Am I on the right track? Can we take it further? 

[James12345]

3 minutes ago, Late Boomer said:

What does mean mean?

I am journaling to contemplate different subjects as suggested by Leo's video "How to contemplate using a journal"

I decided to contemplate on the word "mean" (as in what does x mean?). 

What does mean mean? Meaning and truth appear to be related, but not the same. 

Mean is a symbol that means "accurately represent a concept or an object."

Can any symbol be accurate or true? Arguably no. A symbol is by definition not the thing it symbolizes. "The map is not the territory."

Meaning = definition. To define something, you explain what that that something represents. 

Because a word is a symbol, the only definition you can get is another symbol or set of symbols. 

"What is the meaning of life?" is like asking "What is the meaning of 'life'?" Life is a symbol for something you know because you experience it, but you can't really say what it is. If you try to say, you have to use symbols, which are not the thing itself. 

Because language is dualistic and reality is non-dualistic (conditionally for me - still trying to grasp this), "what does x mean?" is a question that can't be answered with words. 

"Hola" is a Spanish word that means "hello" in English but what does that word mean? A greeting. But what does a greeting mean? All you can do is produce more synonyms or symbols. 

What about "aloha"? that means both hello and goodbye in Hawaiian. 

Does a wave or a nod answer the question? What if other cultures use different gestures? What if your culture uses a gesture that means "fuck you" in your culture? You have to somehow know their intention, which is internal. 

So meaning is a meaningless oxymoron isn't it? You can't convey truth or reality with words, you can only symbolize it. 

Interestingly, I decided to begin reading [[Tao Te Ching]] today and the first words were "The Tao that can be told is not the true Tao."

This is my train of thought. Am I on the right track? Can we take it further? 

How can you trust the language? All these sentences, are they sentences? There is no such a thing as language nor these are sentences. 

Knowing is the greatest illusion.

Buddha

[Late Boomer]

How can you explain that without words or sentences? 

[James12345]

1 minute ago, Late Boomer said:

How can you explain that without words or sentences? 

There is no such a thing as explanation. Because there is no such a thing as you or i. I and you are just a so called thoughts and learned. If you never learn yourself or your birth can you be born or have body? Or you have no body now, you think you do have thats the reason why you have? 

By the way, you are on right track with questioning language, experience, knowledges and feelings, which are the most effective way for enlightenment. how can you trust something that you learned by so called human? How do they know the truth? 

[Late Boomer]

@James12345 Are you talking about solipsism? That is a mindset I have experienced before and can again if I contemplate it hard enough. I still can't get over the idea that we all stand on the same ground, that there's a world that exists independently of me, but I agree there's no way to prove I'm not coming up with that as well. There's ultimately no way to really connect perception and reality.

As far as learning myself, I was told about how I was born, about illnesses I had as an infant that I don't remember, but from my point of view, I came into existence when a mousetrap snapped on my finger when I was 2. What came before that I have to take my parents' word. What came after that I might have dreamed or imagined, I can't prove that I didn't. I can find some evidence, like school notes and old photos. I suppose this could all be a dream. Is it your position that this is someone else's dream?

[Tim R]

"Mean" obviously doesn't mean anything.

[Late Boomer]

@Tim R I've come to that conclusion. It's the divide by zero of words. 

[James12345]

18 minutes ago, Late Boomer said:

Are you talking about solipsism?

What is solipsism? Just a thought not even. Something you have learned, by so called humans.

19 minutes ago, Late Boomer said:

I still can't get over the idea that we all stand on the same ground, that there's a world that exists independently of me,

Thought, thinking process. When you sleep is there any world independently of you? Is there any you? 

 

20 minutes ago, Late Boomer said:

As far as learning myself, I was told about how I was born, about illnesses I had as an infant that I don't remember, but from my point of view, I came into existence when a mousetrap snapped on my finger when I was 2. What came before that I have to take my parents' word. What came after that I might have dreamed or imagined, I can't prove that I didn't. I can find some evidence, like school notes and old photos. I suppose this could all be a dream.

This all stories are still learned from others, if you never learn anything including yourself, what would happen? 

 

21 minutes ago, Late Boomer said:

Is it your position that this is someone else's dream?

There is no me nor you. Now is before so called birth. Birth happened with learning, death happens when the realization happens that learning is just an illusion. So forget everything you have learned, what is left?

[Late Boomer]

31 minutes ago, James12345 said:

What is solipsism? Just a thought not even. Something you have learned, by so called humans.

It was a thought I had when I was a kid, that I had no way of knowing the people in my life weren't imaginary. 

31 minutes ago, James12345 said:

When you sleep is there any world independently of you? Is there any you? 

Last night I dreamed I was someone who was not me. Sometimes I can switch characters within a dream. 

31 minutes ago, James12345 said:

This all stories are still learned from others, if you never learn anything including yourself, what would happen? 

I don't know. I would be a blank slate? Is it possible not to learn anything? 

31 minutes ago, James12345 said:

There is no me nor you.

Now I think you're talking non-duality. I can consider it, but I can't really grasp it. That I can't really capture the meaning of an object or concept with words give me an inkling, but it still doesn't feel true to me. 

31 minutes ago, James12345 said:

So forget everything you have learned, what is left?

Experience? Observation?

Edited August 31, 2021 by Late Boomer

[WaveInTheOcean]

'meaning' / 'value' / 'judgment' is play. Love. 

The most meaningful thing you can do is to paint, draw, write, talk, create or express yourself in some other way. Sex. LIfe. Death. Drugs. Ecstasy. Meditation.

'meaning' is basically "taking and dividing" the "whole" (Infinity, God) up into pieces (finite things, ego) in order to play with it.

God playing with God. God playing with Itself.

The ultimate meaning is always Love/Play. The relative meaning can be infinite things. You are so free, you just don know it, or rather: you prefer -- at the moment -- to not be free. Freedom can be boring. Freedom can be scary. Freedom can be ecstasy.

The worst part about ourselves is that we are afraid of the light. 

It's easy to forgive people who are afraid of the dark -- but really, afraid of the light? That's messed up. What a game we are playing!
 

 
Listen. Everything's simply a vibration. Frequency. Reality is a Love Symphony.
Play the notes YOU want to hear. We are fundamentally one, just different strings of one.

Edited August 31, 2021 by WaveInTheOcean

[gettoefl]

@WaveInTheOcean

this moved me x

[James12345]

17 hours ago, Late Boomer said:

t was a thought I had when I was a kid, that I had no way of knowing the people in my life weren't imaginary. 

They are, like a robot as me too. Isnt is crazy? 

 

17 hours ago, Late Boomer said:

Last night I dreamed I was someone who was not me. Sometimes I can switch characters within a dream. 

18 hours ago, James12345 said:

You are everyone in this so called dream. Even your thoughts about whatever i say here, you think i am thinking and thats how i am saying. However, you are thinking that i am thinking thats what makes me so real for you. 

17 hours ago, Late Boomer said:

I don't know. I would be a blank slate? Is it possible not to learn anything? 

18 hours ago, James12345 said:

This is what the Truth is nothing is there, which is what You really are. 

17 hours ago, Late Boomer said:

Now I think you're talking non-duality. I can consider it, but I can't really grasp it. That I can't really capture the meaning of an object or concept with words give me an inkling, but it still doesn't feel true to me

Realization is must. You can take and example of sleep and before birth. Mind can not grasp it because mind must be dropped to realize what is the non duality or Truth is.

17 hours ago, Late Boomer said:

Experience? Observation?

You have learned these stuff. Additionally long time sitting is must. Very important. To realize what the thought is.

[TheSelf]

@James12345 experiencing what is, doesn't need a thought process! You don't need to believe about an "I" to observe, see, hear or basically experience! You don't have to learn about experience to experience.

[James12345]

21 minutes ago, m0hsen said:

@James12345 experiencing what is, doesn't need a thought process! You don't need to believe about an "I" to observe, see, hear or basically experience! You don't have to learn about experience to experience.

So why do you say experience than? Dont say anything. Lol. When you say experiencing it is still naming and labeling the thought, which is experiencing. 

[VeganAwake]

.... another way to talk about this is that each apparent person born is brought up with different societal conditioning/life experience. (A person raised in Iran will have an apparent different experience than A person raised in Portland Oregon). 

So each person will have an apparent different experience depending on their societal upbringing.... but this so-called person (per son a) that seems to arise out of this so-called conditioning, is an illusion.

Every different way the person judges reality is just a learned or conditioned concept which seems to create an entire different dream story experience.

And even this is just a story

❤

 

[Willie]

What do you mean, “what does mean mean”?

I could say that the mean of {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8} = 4.

But then maybe you’d say that isn’t what you meant at all, and I’m hijacking your thread just to be mean.

Perhaps the end doesn’t justify the means after all...

[Late Boomer]

9 hours ago, Willie said:

What do you mean, “what does mean mean”?

I could say that the mean of {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8} = 4.

But then maybe you’d say that isn’t what you meant at all, and I’m hijacking your thread just to be mean.

Perhaps the end doesn’t justify the means after all...

Then I would have said, "what does the mean mean?" or "what does being mean mean?" or "what does means mean?"

Know what I mean?

[Late Boomer]

10 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

So each person will have an apparent different experience depending on their societal upbringing.... but this so-called person (per son a) that seems to arise out of this so-called conditioning, is an illusion.

Interesting thought. I figured out a long time ago that everyone has a persona or more than one personae, meaning mask or masks. That's pretty intuitive. You have a "self" or "selves" that you present to others in public, online, at work, etc. You don't talk about your fetish porn at work or cuss like you do at home when you're with your religious relatives (Christian bro is coming to town...).

But sounds like  you're getting at the idea that "self" is itself a persona that your self wears for itself. Your self doesn't like to think there's anything under the mask because it thinks the mask is itself. So is whatever you "mean" under the mask of self? Or under the illusion of self? 

But are we assuming that we start the same before we develop a persona? If you're a sociopath for instance, were you born a sociopath? Does that mean you're only a "self" or an ego and have no meaning underneath? 

Going deeper. My head is trippin'.

[LastThursday]

@Late Boomer I'm sure there's some subtlety to meaning. It's not entirely words. It can be a felt sensation, something like familiarity or recognition. For example seeing a family member is meaningful, seeing a stranger less so - there's no need for words to have meaning. A lot of spirituality I would say is outside of words and language, but still meaningful. Maybe it all boils down to: if we're aware of something, it is meaningful.

[Late Boomer]

21 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

@Late Boomer I'm sure there's some subtlety to meaning. It's not entirely words. It can be a felt sensation, something like familiarity or recognition. For example seeing a family member is meaningful, seeing a stranger less so - there's no need for words to have meaning. A lot of spirituality I would say is outside of words and language, but still meaningful. Maybe it all boils down to: if we're aware of something, it is meaningful.

Good points. But I think things we're not aware of can have meaning. I think it demonstrates the limitations of language. We mistake words for what they symbolize.

I think mean shows the limitations of language the way x/0 shows the limitations of math (I'm on shaky ground here. I don't know shit about math). But it brings up another angle. Do numbers "mean" things? Are they symbols for things only or do they exist independently? Like why are there "objects" like the Mandelbrot and Julia sets and why do they make these beautiful shapes that can only be discovered through lots of number crunching? Are they real? Do they mean anything?