Trauma, my ego

[Esilda]

9 hours ago, modmyth said:

I've been on this journey whether I've wanted to or not, I guess.

Exactly, we don't get any choice but to sign up or just sit on the sidelines. I like to pretend that I'm not on the sidelines sometimes, it's one of the reasons why I like this forum it keeps me in check lol. 

Quote

I think this is pretty much the case for all heartbreak as it ultimately boils down to expectations and attachments. Generally being that the person who reaches for more puts themselves more on the line by default.

Thank you for saying this  , balance is key and we need both our hearts and our minds online to workout something that's negotiable. But then there's the case of what are we negotiating? I can't be in an intimate relationship with someone where I'm constantly negotiating on the work they need to do with their heart or mind and neither should they, there need to be some basic ground rules and boundaries as well as understanding if another person could even be a part of that journey or we they, it goes to what @lxlichael said about depth I believe and what @Marcel said about whether who we're going to share our intimate thoughts with. Do me and another guy have the openness, understanding and compassion to work through things? 

 

Quote

Why one or the other? I was mostly referring to growth a result of a sense pain, separation, loss, seemingly irreconcilable perspectives and attitudes.

Oh as I think of mutual love for me as a "no matter what" scenario.

Quote

So I meant moreso in some kind of "objective" sense beyond your own perspective of it being based just its love, or growth being the result of some mutual effort. Which is like the "soul" or "higher self" has one idea for you, and "you" (your conscious self) may have a completely different idea of how things are going, should go, and will go. Tragedy and hilarity ensues (or some greater sense of tragic irony), depending on the perspective you take.

How do you separate genuine loving connection with someone from objectivity if you're genuinely both relating to each other in this way though?

I struggle to understand the difference between the higher self, love and soul, what are your thoughts here? I separate love from limerence. 

Quote

It's most often the things that don't work which tends to cause the most growth in a short period of time, most often in the sense that it forces us rather than it being something voluntary. Duly noting that conscious, continuous growth with a person isn't really our strong suit as a species overall.

I agree in general, though overall I have many examples in my own life of friends that are lovers which "defy the odds", there's a lot that goes into that soup that most will never be able to achieve. Quite often its the case that you can have balance between each other, but often one wants growth and the other doesn't, growth in one area but not another. Tug of war from either of them will eventually cause separation... The openness, understanding and compassion that I mentioned... 

Quote

Completely relatable. Yea, I agree. It's very sober and level-headed. ("Sober" isn't always the most desired thing though, particularly for those who are inclined to throw themselves into it wholly, or were inclined to try in my own case.)

Touché  . 

Quote

To what degree is a connection something that is maintained or built vs. something which exists intrinsically? Like, when is the right time to work on it consciously, and when it the time to give it the space to be, or even to pull away possibly? There are judgment calls to be made all around when it come to circumstances and timing (for example, working on the right thing at the wrong time).

Heart resonance must come first, I can't build my heart just as much as I can't build a connection. That's just way too mental for me. It's open heart to heart communication, that's all it takes for me. Then I have my ego... Which is why I need that compassion. I realise now that it really is that straight forward. When I'm out of touch with my heart, my mind takes over and just spoils everything, my mind needs to listen to my heart, a healed heart though. I feel that Michael is right about depth, that'll be our test how much me and another guy can sustain with one another. So its like, I could even make depth a value of mine now. 

Quote

There is also the issue with "feeling" a strong connection with someone vs. consciously co-opting into it together, with a similar or compatible enough perspective and strategy on how to approach everything, wherever your meeting point is. If one person truly doesn't want to or won't, or just can't, then you're stuck with a whole lot of nothing. Then reality prevails one way or another.

The whole construction thing sounds nasty if both parties aren't interested. It sounds like something that happens after a divorce rather than something that creates a marriage. Do we create a marriage? For me it just sounds a little weird, there's boundaries of understanding and for me I feel that's as far as I'd take it, what do you feel?

Quote

And then we have the issue of co-opting too much into reality as it presents itself, and then its as if we can get stuck looping in the same preoccupations and unresolved identities forever, or at least for a very long time until you and/or circumstance gives you the boot. Or you change/ grow enough.

I really like this point, this is why learning and communication is so important, like when we're interacting with long term partners its not like we always see them the same way with every action they take, we adjust it over a series of glances continuously. Meaning we're always learning who they are and where they're going. If we're just stuck on them being some image then literally everything becomes doomed by that point, at that point we're just a child with an image and they have to baby to us or vice versa because if they are observing and learning from us they'll see that we just see them like a child would, a mere snapshot of reality. It's why I'm going through this journey now emotionally, to feel and breath new life into those snapshots and re-awaken my heart.

I feel like this is built, or like I mentioned boundaried understanding, on a strong foundation of trust and communication. Because even if we don't have snapshots and we're good at learning the changes of our partner a lack of trust and communication will just create further distrust and well that movie will finish soon. Because it creates fear in us, so how do we manage that without communication or good understanding at a minimum?

Quote

What's idealism worth though here, and why is it worth adapting or even fighting for? Why not put it down and pick up something else all together, if anything at all?

We create in the reality, what are we creating? Meaning for me it feels like idealism is just a creative principle. This goes back to the whole sidelines or not thing though lol, a lot of the time when I'm healing my heart I'm still finding myself in that place, its much easier when I heal more but I slide back and fourth I'm not perfect. I find the more I stretch for idealism at the cost of my heart the more I invalidate, silence, reject it and it well I just regress.

Quote

Like in my case, I was very cynical for pretty much my whole life. It seems just naturally, I have rock bottom expectations when it comes to people, like my own family especially.

I feel really bad for you I'm sorry you've had to go through experiences that have led you to become this way. This is how I have been though in many parts of my life that I'm now really wanting to put a stamp on ending permanently. 

Quote

I don't form deep attachments very easily Even when I was younger and I formed deep attachments much more easily, I had the intrinsic understanding that the status of relationships, and the meaning found in the context of it can change at the moment of it.

There is no intrinsic stability in any of it. Life is a free fall and a free flow. Even the deepest possible connections... things can change at a moment's notice like a shift in the direction of the wind. That seems to be my natural alignment and where I found myself by default, but I myself wanted to change into something more stable and lasting as well as "total" in connection. I couldn't even make things connect in the most basic of levels in that way, so that I was understood/ seen/ felt properly in my intentions at all. It's as if I wasn't even there, like I didn't exist to that person. It's a suicidal thing.

Yeah I definitely relate to this and its something I've spent a long time working to change at different aspects of my life. The experience with my boyfriend as I've talked about through me into complete disarray and I was just like this. I have made many small steps to get everything back online emotionally for myself and I want to open myself up to more long term commitments, I wont' at all entertain people though if my heart isn't in it as its just not fair on them and I will make them clear about my difficulties, intentions, what I can do with everything and where we're coming together in the midst of that.

Quote

But I guess I wanted to try doing the complete opposite of what I would normally do. Being that detached, even with less cynicism, does come with its own set of baggage.

For me it was never really baggage, just absence, I was absent from life as life was absent from me. 

Quote

Do you think there's some sort of new life or new ideal to hold onto in all of this? I don't, generally. It seems to be my cynicism and low expectations coming full circle. I don't quite know what to do with it other than to throw it overboard eventually when I can... but what to put in its place, if anything?

The cynicism will continue to eat until the wood is ashes.

Quote

Like I returned to be with my partner who I was with before I went and nuked myself. And while I love and care about him, and focus on being present with him more than anything else, I am very reluctant to say anything means anything in any idealistic sense, and just generally of overextending myself beyond my sustainable means. I am perpetually "just there" and maybe in the end, this is the only true thing that doesn't come with baggage sooner or later, the baggage of having some kind of coherent, enclosed meaning, the baggage of being defined perpetually by your attachment as if leaning into it, and leaning on it; it's perhaps perpetually overextending yourself into expectation and some imagined future by default.

You went and nuked yourself? For me I just really need that heart to heart connection I really wouldn't sacrifice for anything less just because I'm then sacrificing my life journey. This whole journey thing we do though is so complicated and my position is as complex as anything when it comes to having that heart to heart I desire. It starts with my healing I get that, the rest with something like the law of attraction. 

Quote

It's not really about giving or receiving freely ultimately, is it? It's about what people will do for you, and what you want to do for them (which you then idealize to the high heavens if you're romantically inclined) under certain conditions but not others. Otherwise by definition, it cannot be special or exclusive. Why legibly pick one person over another and stick with them indefinitely if you're going to get really extreme about that thought process, unless it just "happens to happen" and then you just "happen to" keep doing this forever?

For me its not really like that at all, its really all just about the feeling. Aren't they just reality blocks? This goes back to building a heart for me, its not something I do, the heart just feels, feels into and expresses. This is all just the hearts intelligence for me, I don't really relate with the over-selection behaviour, its too mental for me if that makes sense.

Quote

So we try to bring this spirit and belief in unconditional love (whether giving and/or receiving) to something which tends to be very strictly defined in terms of desires/ expectations (especially not very overtly), and unsurprisingly it clashes it all sorts of ways.

Without the resonance and everything above I feel it definitely would. Like, just human to human we're here communicating with one another, in our responses we're seeing the light of each other in a way, do we want to see that light or do we want to see the expectation or the thing we thought we'd been promised? I'll go the light everytime as that's what makes me enjoy any such material thing that could come along for me anyway. This is all mostly non-material for me, when has true empathy ever been about the material world? They seem to lose all connection the more we look at them.

Quote

Not to mention that the issue of family/ early life trauma, as you mentioned in your own posts, is an inseparable from all of this.

Precisely, exactly, absolutely... wrecking ball for culture please  . It's so weird of the world, they want us to just show up and be ready/perfect and they forget our whole life history, at least that's how it appears to me. It's our responsibility sure I get that and I'm doing this heart work for me but its also their empathy that I'm asking questions about. 

9 hours ago, modmyth said:

I find it interesting to observe the way that you are relatively direct/ to the point with your emotions.

Ahh.... Inwardly I'm really trying here. I've got so much work ahead of me but I appreciate that  .

Quote

And it's cool that people are supportive of you here while you are expressing emotions which tended to be quite similar to mine at the core about a similar issue. I can't say that people either gave me positive attention while I've been dealing with it, but also I guess I'm not that open to it nor am I particularly good at being around people in certain states. I tended to either get ignored when it came to dealing with the really difficult stuff (which is fine and what I'm the most comfortable with by default) or I would get criticized, particularly when I was in the most emotionally intense or conflicted states. Either here on this forum, or with people that I had chosen to open up to.

I don't mind if people comment or not its up to them, if I sense social though a lot of the time I find myself becoming naturally accommodating if it suits my vibe. I'm probably going to talk about some really boring, annoying and ugly things in this journal that people aren't going to find worth saying much about lol! 

I choose people that want to listen and that I want to listen to and understand. If I just want them to listen, they feel that, if they feel I want to understand, they feel that too. Heart to heart. It's like this forum though, I'm just now learning to create really good boundaries for people if they fit with me great if they don't and there's no resonance on resolution its just okay well enjoy life's sunset with someone else I'm okay. I've done this alone thing before and I've done connections with only a few close people before. I don't need a lot of numbers... I do just want depth now in my life.

Quote

I suppose I was constantly preoccupied with judgment by default as a matter of my own social conditioning and upbringing, and I tended to focus on the negative as well here. (It seems like this is a natural tendency for many of us in different ways; I try to be mindful of it.)

Same here even online. 

Quote

...and I tend to find myself covering it more with a ton of rage ("rage" is generally more empowering feeling even if it's chronic rather than emotional inertia, hopelessness, sadness), repetitive expressions of despair, trying to cut myself off from it to perpetually move on, etc., and people either tend to react negatively to this by mirroring or not coming near it, which is understandable.

I used to do this but it can be so painful, how does this make us less cynical? I know what it feels like to have to choose between emotions rather than just being in my heart so I'm there with you. I hope you are okay. I don't disbelieve in anger, but its like, okay here it is but now its served its purpose so be gone. 

Quote

So you're like... way more agreeable than I am, and more open/ direct about your vulnerability without making it into a whole thing when it comes to this particular issue.

Or is it... relatable?

Relatable. Trying to change  . Thank you @modmyth its been a pleasure reading your thoughts and to do the whole getting to know you a bit better  .  

 

Oh and @Marcel and @lxlichael let me spray the spicy sauce on those when I feel I need to but Marcel I appreciate your feedback and I'll call you guys again when I need it, I'm just going through an important phase in my development.   

Edited September 1, 2021 by Esilda

[Esilda]

2 hours ago, lxlichael said:

Yeah just go for depth, its no offence to shallow people but they'll make you shallow. Go figure. Simplest answer is the best here.

I was feeling that I could turn this into a value, what other ideas would you say represent depth? What characteristics would you make a part of this? Out of the box, what do you think it changes for a person and society?

Anyone can jump in on this question  .

Thank you to the both of you @Marcel @lxlichael.

 

[Esilda]

Depth (completely ignoring you now  ):

Depth in both oneself and relationships is all about surrender.

Surrendering to the moment.

Surrendering to the experience of growth of mind, heart and spirit.

Surrendering to our partner however they are for their betterment and they ours.

Surrendering to love as no unity can happen when our walls are too high up.

Surrendering to the discovery of truth and thus the surrender to contemplation including emotional processing.

Surrendering to the freedom of consciousness and the openings that life brings.

Surrendering to our hearts and the discovery of its truth.

Surrendering to integrity and what we truly know what is right.

Surrendering our impulses for Higher Mind, Higher Heart, Higher Soul, Higher Spirit. 

Surrendering ourselves when we have found our whole with another (right connection, compatibility, etc).

You like that Mr. @lxlichael ? 

[RickyFitts]

Sigh, beautiful, again... what a gift to the forum you've been 

[SLuxy]

your vibe is liiiit!

Something tells me this will be of service to you

 

 

[Esilda]

2 hours ago, lxlichael said:

 

So in the context of ego, I would add listening as a big one.

I've got others and there are others beyond what I'd say but yeah I go back to the original point. I don't say this because I'm an amazing listener I say this because listening to the world in general in a way that enhances our learning is just so difficult to maintain but is ultimately necessary for our growth.

For example you're getting me to reconsider my thoughts on the heart, healing myself more and all the rest of it that follows there in a way I haven't thought of before. I'm not taking anything you say verbatim but I am indeed working to integrate it as a part of my learning. 

Most people though will just read what you say, though most won't be fucked, and then forget it the next day or won't take it much more seriously after reading it. We all have these habits, but I know to take myself to the next level in all ways, listening and its applicability to everything in life is a core feature of depth that I'm forming a personal relationship with as it concerns ego and learning. I wasn't expecting the way you encapsulated that though. Interesting interpretation. 

What do you think?

What made you choose the word surrender?

What were some of the reasons for why you said some of the things you said?

Getting back to you!   In the meantime What are your thoughts on this Mr @lxlichael ?

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-active-listening-3024343

[Esilda]

Thanks guys!

@lxlichael @Marcel @RickyFitts

@SLuxy Do u have notes on it? Time is scarce for video these days.

[SLuxy]

@Esilda hahaha I think that is precisely why you must watch the video.

These videos are what give meaning to life.

[Esilda]

@SLuxy I'm not watching the video lol. I'm glad they give you meaning though . Just a really tight schedule.

[SLuxy]

@Esilda Understandable.

One day you may come across the same video, and its recommendation may flicker in your mind. Then you may watch it and see what life could be.

And perhaps what it already is lol.

Edited September 1, 2021 by SLuxy
grammar

[Esilda]

 

@SLuxy I'm not really a YouTube person outside of music and basic recreational. Video goes too slow. Books. 

I LOVE LOVE LOVE to read  . This is why I asked for notes! Just list the notes here if you watched it you should have them right? 

[SLuxy]

I see. I see.

I cannot send my notes. I mix in personal content with my notetaking.

Also, there's something to this video. There really is 

[Esilda]

@lxlichael I realise as well that listening is so important inside just as much as outside but I now you meant that as a part of what you said I just wanted to add that . Also the link I want you to look at, you said you were interested in my comments on the heart right?  I was feeling into the idea of applying active listening to heart and energy work  .

[Esilda]

To my betrayal,

What beliefs did you hold onto to create said betrayal? What things do you need to understand about people before engaging into any kind of intimacy with a person in future? What were the patterns of said person that led to the betrayal that I could have seen better at the start? 

Maybe he wasn't as sentimental as I thought? Maybe he had a pattern of cheating on partners in the past that I wasn't aware of? Why would I conclude that once was the only time? That was simply the one time I found out.

How could you just coldly do that to a person when you had spent so much time being with them? It's psychopathic.

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Esilda

[Esilda]

To my betrayal,

My heart hurts and will continue to hurt so long as I have the same beliefs in this world that contributed to said pain. My heart will not become fully open until I learn to fully take on the new changes I need to take on which will protect my heart in the future. The pain continues to exist because my heart does not feel fully protected and I am still partly in love, its a love that I haven't learned to fully shake from myself. Can I 'shake it from myself'? Is this something that can be done? 

[Esilda]

To my love,

Why do I feel the need to care about this person still? Why do I subject myself to this kind of torture? The torture of caring about them so strongly when they have clearly betrayed me and they would do it again and again at their leisure? What do I do with this love? Do I step on it? Do I recycle it? Do I simply speak to it? What is it that I do here that would solve this conundrum? Why can't I just let fully go? Is it the dream that I cannot let go of or is it the lover? If I attached the dream to a different person then it has nothing to do with the person right? If I subtract the dream from the person then I can just allow things to be and move on, yes? Then perhaps this is neither about my love or my betrayal but my propensity towards dreaming that must be healed?

Edited September 2, 2021 by Esilda

[Esilda]

 To my love,

What was it that created you? Why did you become possessed by this? You ate from the tree of love but you did not check to see if the fruit was ripe. The tree of love, I love this metaphor. Is this is the lesson I am supposed to learn? It sounds so simple and elegant. He was just on the tree of love and I ate something that I shouldn't have yet or even maybe I ate from the wrong tree this is possible too. 

[Esilda]

@lxlichael hey hero  

just busy. will get back to you

[SLuxy]

13 hours ago, SLuxy said:

@Esilda hahaha I think that is precisely why you must watch the video.

These videos are what give meaning to life.

Just remembered!

There is an Actualized.org textbook floating around the forum somewhere.

If you search for it, I'm sure you'll find it. It has notes for loads of videos!

 

Further note:

Apologies. My intuition tells me some aspects of my previous posts, notably my vagueness, were ego-driven.

Edited September 2, 2021 by SLuxy

[Esilda]

6 hours ago, Marcel said:

@Esilda

Maybe he just never was in a situation like this before.

Being unexperienced with love and intimate connections ultimately will hurt someone and in this case it was unfortunately you.

He did not even realise that he was betraying you and was very surprised to discover it, which is the same reason why he wants to support you to the best of his limited wisdom and ability.

He never wanted you to be hurt and in pain.

But, this pain will transform you.

This is an end and a new beginning for you.

You will not be a doormat to anyone and you will be able to see people for who they are because you can see through and understand all of their intentions and behaviours without judgement, but with empathy and compassion.

He can only apologise.

He had feelings for you, but not of romantic or sexual nature.

He has feelings for you. In a platonic sense, as close friends. As a big sister.

After all.

He still feels super comfortable around you big sister.

And would not want to miss your company.

And he never wanted to hurt you.

He apologises.

 

 

 

Thank you for sharing your wisdom @Marcel that is sooo kind of you