Insight about our fragility and seeking happiness

[The0Self]

3 minutes ago, taotemu said:

Desire ends and we are liberated.

@taotemu Yes, but it’s the hope/desire for something better/greater which ends (simply because it’s not needed) — desires still happen, as they too are an essential part of the aforementioned perfection.

[taotemu]

4 minutes ago, The0Self said:

@taotemu Yes, but it’s the hope/desire for something better/greater which ends (simply because it’s not needed) — desires still happen, as they too are an essential part of the aforementioned perfection.

I agree completely.  It is only when ALL desire ends that we are liberated.  The desire to become free of desire and become liberated is itself a trap. 

[James12345]

8 minutes ago, taotemu said:

I agree completely.  It is only when ALL desire ends that we are liberated.  The desire to become free of desire and become liberated is itself a trap. 

“You” is a desire. 

[The0Self]

12 minutes ago, taotemu said:

I agree completely.  It is only when ALL desire ends that we are liberated.  The desire to become free of desire and become liberated is itself a trap. 

Desires like “wanting to eat this” still appear in liberation. But it’s then just a desire, not a need. Maybe we mean the same thing overall but mean different things by the word desire — in the way I think of desire, all desires coming to an end would basically imply that getting chased by a tiger would not be followed by running-away ? — that would still happen.

Desires and aversions of the body are no longer holding happiness ransom, that’s all. Nothing is personal.

Edited August 31, 2021 by The0Self

[taotemu]

1 minute ago, The0Self said:

Desires like “I want to eat this” still appear in liberation. But it’s then just a desire, not a need. Maybe we mean the same thing overall but mean different things by the word desire — way I think of desire, all desires coming to an end would basically imply that getting chased by a tiger would not cause running-away to happen — ? it would still happen.

Desires and aversions of the body are no longer holding happiness ransom, that’s all.

Yes.  I think we are saying the same thing.  Being liberated of desire doesn't mean we still don't want to eat chocolate, or have sex or want to stay alive.  There is just a freedom around the desires.  Desire stops being compulsion.  We don't suffer when our desires are not met.  As you said, happiness is not held ransom.

[Tim R]

27 minutes ago, taotemu said:

I realized this in a deep, deep way a few years ago.  This life is IT.  There is nothing to do, other than just living my life.  Enlightenment is this breath, this moment, this pain, this suffering, this joy.  Enlightenment doesn't make those things go away.  It just changes how they are seen and experienced.  When we can see the flaws and suffering as part of the beauty of this life, then we are free of Samsara.  Desire ends and we are liberated.

@taotemu Yes. That's why I love the Zen so much. Because they try to teach you this realization, that this is it, more directly than any other spiritual school, in my opinion.

[nistake]

This whole thing depends on your definition of happiness.

If you mean security, constant well-being and peace, not experiencing anxiety and a trauma-free life by happiness, well, yeah, that's quite a futile and foolish goal. It's obviously not gonna work.

However, if you realize that Life has everything that can be imagined and more: good, bad, birth, death, peace, anxiety, etc and you are actually okay with it. By that I mean, you obviously suffer to a certain degree when a traumatic event happens in your life, but you're not fighting it. You're not wishing otherwise and you are not engaging in egoic clusterfuck thought processes either. You can accept suffering for what that is since you're Life and that includes everything.

[taotemu]

2 hours ago, Tim R said:

@taotemu Yes. That's why I love the Zen so much. Because they try to teach you this realization, that this is it, more directly than any other spiritual school, in my opinion.

Exactly.  Zen goes right to the jugular of the problem IMO.  No distractions, no theology, no metaphysics, no philosophy.  Nothing.  Just a focused awareness and mindfulness of here and now.  Everything else is story and ego.

[Breakingthewall]

happiness is simply accepting the present completely and living it without projecting desires. once you see it clearly it becomes possible. meditation is the way.