People don't display the same persona in texting or online as in real life

[flowboy]

On 26/08/2021 at 9:05 PM, charlie cho said:

And about women being insecure about men. Really? The fuck. So I've made mistakes with women like this so many times. I've experienced this so many times. They would answer fast but they would leave me on read. Really? I've got so fed up at the end that recently I've kind of lashed out at the last girl I've been texting because I thought she was so wishy washy about me. I was so fed up I told her "Is this how you treat your friends? Being wishy washy?" or something to that effect. Told her to tell me to "fuck off" if she doesn't want me to talk to her, and she wouldn't say it. She just wouldn't tell me to "fuck off" or "go away", which made me drive up the wall. Adding to this, if it's a bit funny haha, I told her that maybe that's why all her friends are clowns because she makes 1000s of friends, but have no depth in them. Level 0 in friendship building hahahaa. (I know it's a bit cruel but it's funny)

Am I the only person that are able to tell people "fuck off" ? Lol.

Aah, this looks familiar.

I don't know if you actually want people to be honest with you, but you sure aren't helping to make that happen.

What makes people feel safe to be honest?

People are willing to be honest, when they can be sure that they won't be judged, or punished, or become the target of any mean-spiritedness, for whatever they say.

Your current behavior does not qualify as a safe space vibe, if you feel me.

You lash out, you are mean and you are disrespectful.

I wouldn't tell you the truth of anything either, if I was in personal contact with you.

The way you treat people is not deserving of it.

[charlie cho]

41 minutes ago, flowboy said:

People will think you are being an inconsiderate asshole, and they would be right. Because saying whatever you want without concern for someone's ego or sensitivities, if they didn't ask you to, is quite an unloving act. (Which I used to do the shit of when I was younger - didn't have many friends). It communicates that you don't care how someone else feels, you just care about how you see things. Which explains why people may think you're right and you make interesting points when you talk to them, but then still don't want to meet up and connect with you. Because they already picked up on you not caring about their humanity.

I was always against sentiments. Never had a good time with people like that. Had a father who was too sentimental about life, being overly negative and romantically hating on the world. It was sickening. There were times when he was submissive to his "feelings" of his hatred for the world that I started a brawl at him just for the fun of it.

Just a joke, partially at least. haha.

not caring about their feelings, I think that's what you mean by humanity. It's quite possible. I do have this tendency to completely disregard feelings if I feel there will be utility. And especially if I'm aware that with its utility, it will benefit that person's life, I would say it or suggest that it should happen.

I do sometimes be that asshole who has no concern for the other's ego or sensitivities, when I perceive that that person is invading my space of what I feel is most effective, practical, and humane. I don't consider myself to be insensitive about other's egos. I try not to touch on that, and I'm very aware of it. From Owen Cook's real social dynamics, I learnt a ton about that for that particular time. Anyway, as long as the person is not meddling in my business of effectiveness and humaneness, I am very sensitive about other's feelings. 

However, I used to be like that in high school. Exactly that. Just at the age of 17, I stopped that. 

However, people do tend to think of me as an asshole a few times. (maybe a lot of people) I never ever shy away from telling anyone that they are invading my space. (Again the space being, being effective with my work, and being humane.) And these incidents happen sometimes. And when I do get direct and angry at them for transgressing against me, I even deliberately prove how they are transgressing against me. This often has people label me as "evil" or "rude" or "insensitive". 

But, I just don't know how to deal with other's invading me. I'm not one of those people who want to "tell people the truth! I'll be helping them with my truth telling!" no.... I'm not that kind of person. However, I am this kind of person. "If you ever fucking invade my space. All I care about is doing well in my career and not be political or selfish about anything, but if you ever think or do something to meddle me about this, I'll fucking kill you." 

This does, as I see it now, kinda looks psycho. But, I sympathize anybody who thinks like this. hahaha. Maybe that's why I have no problem scaring some people away. Though, it's rare I had no friends. I always had 2-3 friends while I did exactly this. Many understood me, but expressed how they did not like this many times. Then they would say I am right, but I would piss people off. And I would answer, it's not like I do this for my personal gain. And that answer would piss them off. 

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by charlie cho

[flowboy]

9 minutes ago, charlie cho said:

I was always against sentiments. Never had a good time with people like that. Had a father who was too sentimental about life, being overly negative and romantically hating on the world. It was sickening. There were times when he was submissive to his "feelings" of his hatred for the world that I started a brawl at him just for the fun of it.

Oh man, the shadows we inherit from childhood...

I saw my dad as weak, so I was mean to weak people (or whatever I perceived as weak) for the better part of my life.

And sentimental, too. It still triggers me when he raves about how nice it is to just sit and stare at trees or whatever. Ugh.

But the sword cuts on two sides.

I was also being mean to myself when I saw myself as weak.

There is no one without the other. How you treat others, is how you treat yourself.

Therefore, doing shadow work will solve these problems for you.

You can be just as career-driven (which is awesome by the way) as you want, without ever having to lash out at anyone.

It's possible, and much more satisfying and peaceful, but hard to imagine in the "before" state.

I certainly like living in the reality where everyone is out to help me, instead of out to stop me.

It's nice

Edited September 4, 2021 by flowboy

[charlie cho]

@flowboy funny. My father was sentimental as a defeatist. Hmmm..... He wasnt positive vibes sentimental.... defeatists are just the same. They are romantic and childish. 

Shadow work..... i see

I did become sadistic and forced him to hit me, so that i could gain the opportunity to beat him up, which i did. With all the times in my childhood i had to be political with him and pretend to submit to him just not not provoke him to beat me up. (Where it almost happened many times, but i was lucky enough to avoid it).

Beating him up in reverse helped me integrate my shadow side. Whether people believe it or not it doesnt matter. Psychologically, when i took revenge on him and beat his face to a pulp, (he was violent to me, i was smart enough to get away from it) something in me took pity on him afterwards and did not feel the need to hurt him anymore.

Really. After i beat him badly. My mother said he was scarred in the face for 3 months until it healed. But he had it coming to him. He hit me first. I only spoke the truth to him that he was a violent person against his subordinates and youngsters working for him everywhere. Then he proceeded to hit my face. It gave me the right to beat him, which i did.

Have you ever tried revenge? Not against other people, but to the person who caused it in you. I am of the opinion that to take the anger out on others who have never caused it in oneself  ... That is the most irresponsible thing a person can do. The least a man can do is take the anger out on the person who has given it to him. The perfect man wont do both, but im a normal man, not a saint.

I apologize if this post was too blunt, but because you talked about shadow work, i just wanted to profess how this particular way helped me integrate my shadow, however so it appears cruel. But it really did help me psychologically get over with wanting to hurt him and hurt others for causing such anger in me. Beating him really cured me from this anger.

Many people shy away from revenge because of fear. Being vengeful is not virtue, for sure. But avoiding it just to feel selfrighteous is the most repulsive, if one is to investigate into this matter further.

Edited September 4, 2021 by charlie cho

[flowboy]

24 minutes ago, charlie cho said:

Many people shy away from revenge because of fear. Being vengeful is not virtue, for sure. But avoiding it just to feel selfrighteous is the most repulsive, if one is to investigate into this matter further.

I would agree with that.

However, there's more to shadow work than beating up your dad. However good of a start that may be

As long as people can still irritate you and make you angry with their behavior, you still have more shadow work to do.

Another reason people shy away from revenge, is a reason that I think you are purposefully not seeing.

It doesn't evolve you to the next paradigm. Whether you've won or lost, you're still playing the same game.

The game in this case being loosely described as "You do this to me, I do that to you. The world is ruthless and competitive and I have to be harsh to stop the people who are trying to stop me"

Sounds like your dad's paradigm..?

That explains why you are still living in a world full of people trying to stop you, which you have to combat in some harsh way:

53 minutes ago, charlie cho said:

"If you ever fucking invade my space. All I care about is doing well in my career and not be political or selfish about anything, but if you ever think or do something to meddle me about this, I'll fucking kill you." 

And believe me, this attitude is not helping you achieve your goal of people being straight with you, because with that amount of tension and defensiveness, hanging around you like a cloud, people won't feel safe to say what you don't want to hear. Wishy-washiness and avoidence is all you will get. Because you scare people.

 

24 minutes ago, charlie cho said:

I am of the opinion that to take the anger out on others who have never caused it in oneself  ... That is the most irresponsible thing a person can do.

However, you are still being mean and lashing out at people being wishy-washy at you, or not responding when you think they should.

Are they the cause of that anger?

Then how come it doesn't anger others when they do that?

Edited September 4, 2021 by flowboy

[flowboy]

On 26/08/2021 at 8:37 PM, charlie cho said:

Even the people who seemed to defer to me in reality, people who would sometimes want my approval outside, when talking in text, they suddenly pretend to not see my texts, not answer on purpose, or they are genuinely not interested 

See any similarities between this...

38 minutes ago, charlie cho said:

With all the times in my childhood i had to be political with him and pretend to submit to him just not not provoke him to beat me up.

... and this?

 

This is the real reason people don't recommend revenge.

It makes you the same as who you are taking revenge against.

People are scared of you man. And if you remember what it was to be a child and have to submit to your dad, you know exactly what they are feeling. You've been there.

Edited September 4, 2021 by flowboy

[flowboy]

On 26/08/2021 at 9:05 PM, charlie cho said:

They would answer fast but they would leave me on read. Really? I've got so fed up at the end that recently I've kind of lashed out at the last girl I've been texting because I thought she was so wishy washy about me. I was so fed up I told her "Is this how you treat your friends? Being wishy washy?" or something to that effect. Told her to tell me to "fuck off" if she doesn't want me to talk to her, and she wouldn't say it.

 

On 26/08/2021 at 9:05 PM, charlie cho said:

which made me drive up the wall.

Was that the same flavor of anger that you feel about your younger self, not being able to speak up against your dad (yet)?

[charlie cho]

@flowboy I see. You are right. I do have a lot of shadow work to do. 

Thanks for pointing it out for me. Gave me insights about myself. 

If you would allow me to defend myself somewhat, I didn't ever consider myself to have 100% cured from my psychological pain associating with my father. And this issue has got to be more than just anger. The issue is beyond anger at this point. 

Also, with anger issues........ "not being able to speak up against my dad yet", that is a big part of my anger issue. But it wasn't just my dad. I did this with many authority figures in my life. I would say, teachers had just the same amount of the effect of me not being able to speak up. 30% my father, 80% teachers and other authority figures of my life. 

This particular theme with authority is quite a problem for me. I have a hard time dealing with authority. I get angry at authority figures. I had so many fights with teachers that it's funny. Even a pastor in a school tried to punch me. And after he did that, I made fun of him all over class that he has no business with Jesus after doing this. Authority in itself is never a problem with me. I know the need the world has for a good leader. But when I see a leader abusing his power, I get so fed up and rage. When they get political I try to destroy them. 

1 hour ago, flowboy said:

That explains why you are still living in a world full of people trying to stop you, which you have to combat in some harsh way:

And believe me, this attitude is not helping you achieve your goal of people being straight with you, because with that amount of tension and defensiveness, hanging around you like a cloud, people won't feel safe to say what you don't want to hear. Wishy-washiness and avoidence is all you will get. Because you scare people.

this is a big problem. I never wish to ever be this, or even appear like this. As Machiavelli says, it's the best to be both feared and loved, but the worst is to be hated. If one is to choose love or fear, machiavelli chooses fear. I agree to this to some extent. But I don't think a leader will reach his utmost potential unless he knows how to be loved. If he is only feared, there is no ultimate growth. I want to be loved.

That said, I've read from an ancient Chinese Legalist political philosopher talk about exactly that. That thing has been the very thing that I was trying to avoid. The writer of the book was writing to a prince, who would later be the first emperor to have ever united China, Qin Dynasty's Qin Shi Huang, to be careful of being too fearful to his subordinates, of showing too much intention of wanting the truth, because this tension where the prince lets everyone know never to invade his space of wanting to achieve his goal will bring about tension within the minister's minds. Because the prince is so focused on his goal, he doesn't realize people will either flatter him by appeasing and praising his goals, or conspire against him so as to not anger the prince. Therefore, never to show defensiveness with your goals. We can interpret this as him saying "just hide your intentions" but I would like to interpret this as saying "look at the forest, not the tree." When one is goal oriented, he will be too shallow and narrow. Tunnel vision will obscure one's path to right living, in my opinion. 

You have made me realize that maybe I've been causing tension through my display of devotion to my goal, or my obsessiveness with my goals. This cannot be healthy. Thanks for pointing this out. I will enjoy contemplating on what you said. 

ha........ I really do force people to do things..... I feel kinda depressed. I do kinda treat people like ....

Ive recently gained an insight about this which only depresses me more. If one treats others as powerless people, powerful people will only avoid him and powerless people will readily accept ones treatment. One may be powerful himself, but he will be living in a country of migets. No? And its almost a rule that powerless scoundrels love to hang out with each other. Nobody wants to be powerless scoundrels.

I want to associate with respectful elites.... and if i ever be unreasonable or tension provoking, i cant see myself ever achieving this...... i got to change it

Edited September 4, 2021 by charlie cho